Sci/Tech Evidence for new periodic table element boosted

Let's all seriously just ignore FC this time around people! XD

Your last post is the first post in which I think you are starting to understand what I have been saying all along, but you are still just a bit off. I have never debated the point that the atom existed in said configuration for a fraction of a second. I have stated that point about 4 different times. I have never strictly said that scientists didn't observe it in said configuration; I said that maybe we should not count it as an element.

We could probably make ANYTHING exist in a specific configuration for a given amount of time, assuming the time involved in doing so is small enough and also measurable. There needs to be a line drawn at some point. If I force a certain number of protons and neutrons together for .00000000000000000000000001 seconds, and observe it, does it count as an element? Perhaps you would agree that that is too short a time to call such a thing an element. If you do agree on that point, then we are in an area where we need to define what is an acceptable amount of time to be considered stable enough.

Now onto the blinking argument. Blinking is an action. If it happens in .0001 or .000000001 seconds and we observe it as happening then it happened. Likewise, if I force people to live in your home for a minute, an hour, or a day they still were in your house at some point. We both agree on these points.

But the people I forced into your home are still not part of your family. -_- There is no cohesiveness to them being in your home that makes them wanted there, or makes them want to be there. You don't simply count them as family members just because they were forced to be in your house at one point in time. Once they are allowed to leave they would probably run for the hills.

If you need a dozen people to hold the walls of a house together (without nails or anything to hold it up on its own) at what point can you call it a house? The second all the people let go and try to go inside, the house falls down. Was it ever a house? Could we say that it was a suitable home? It definitely looked like a house, but could never have stood on its own. It was definitely observed as a house when they were holding it up, but it fell down shortly after. It never functioned as a house should.

So, again, my only point was that I feel as though elements should have some sort of affinity to be in a configuration for a specific amount of time before we count them as a true element. I feel like we might be forcing the completion of a table for the sake of completing a table. The standard model is an ugly thing. No one knows why but it sure doesn't make a lot of sense. Like the standard model, the periodic table need not necessarily be nice and orderly.

(fyi I don't like when people call me things like "Danny boy" or "Pal" to spice up their argument... There simply is no need to act as such. Additionally, I am not angry or worked up in any way. I appreciate good arguments and information. I am not trying to do anything other than engage in intellectual exchanges with people I like. I have nothing against you in any way. You have been very awesome in the past; I simply feel as though you have been calling me out as "stupid" and taken on a negative attitude towards me in this thread. I am not stupid, but at times am ignorant. It would be impossible to know everything.)

All that being said, I honestly don't know what we gain from this whole thing. Perhaps there is information to be learned from this new element and perhaps it meets a bunch of standards that scientists in this field are cool with. I honestly don't know. I would never try and control what projects scientists work on or anything like that. Great things come from all over the place.

See, what threw me off was your statement in your second post:

When you are talking about an element lasting such a short amount of time, it doesn't even seem to me that it even counts as existing in the first place.

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I took that as you saying that something different never existed, when I guess you were saying that what existed shouldn't technically be considered a new element? That's a line of reasoning I can much better understand, and can mostly agree with in that I can't see the practical usage of such an element. Makes a little more sense now that you've said everything... this would have been one of those conversations that went better in person than in blocks of text because we would've been able to better explain what we were trying to say.

I didn't like the house analogy at all at first, but I get where you're coming from now. There's still a big problem, though - you describe a house as an element, or an atom, but all houses do essentially the same thing whereas all elements have very different properties, especially on a macro level. So if you imagined that all houses were completely unique in the same analogy and we were able to create one of these houses by holding it up with a dozen people, it might not have any practical use but we'd be able to observe the unique properties and hopefully find a way to get it to stand up on its own. Once we accomplished that, we'd be able to utilize it properly. Although I'm sure what we're talking is far more complicated than how it's been made to sound.

As for completing the table, you could be right. But it sure would make it prettier.

well a house is fundamentally not an atom so I can't help the analogy along for much more than its intended purpose.

Don't I always make SOME kind of sense though? I would hope that I have earned at least that much by now. "Oh that Dan, he's crazy but I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere."

Dan said:

"Oh that Dan, he's crazy but I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere."

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Even Firecat's one-liners have points in them somewhere (you just have to dig deep enough) so that doesn't really warrant much merit.

KaerfNomekop said:

Even Firecat's one-liners have points in them somewhere (you just have to dig deep enough) so that doesn't really warrant much merit.

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I was under the impression that trolls had no point to make. Whatever stirs the waters or (more appropriately) rocks the bridge.

Damn, such a bullshit! ^

Dan said:

I was under the impression that trolls had no point to make. Whatever stirs the waters or (more appropriately) rocks the bridge.

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Firecat doesn't troll on purpose. It's just an automatic response, some sort of defense mechanism. He's a mysterious creature, that FC is.

FireCat said:

Damn, such a firecat! ^

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Synonyms.

I think I would very much like to meet FC in person one day.

Dan said:

I think I would very much like to meet FC in person one day.

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Maybe we should organise some sort of Helper Gathering?

FC Kidnapping. I think we'd have to kidnap FC.

KaerfNomekop said:

Maybe we should organise some sort of Helper Gathering?

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Perfect opportunity for a gun rampage.

... You wouldn't success! Just saying.

Dan said:

If it is an acceptable amount of time, we should probably begin to draw a line somewhere. Every atomic number should exist if we consider a small enough time, because at the smallest levels, we could probably force an atomic configuration into "existence." If this were the case, then it wouldn't really be a big deal if we made them at all, because we could just name all possible configurations and be done.

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Key word: Probably. We haven't though, so it doesn't matter, and even if you could force them together for planks of time, that doesn't make it acceptable as an element because it may not necessarily meet the definitions of an element (which are, admittedly, not very well defined). However, I agree, it would likely be possible to do so, but that would lead to some unlimited numbers of configurations, so naming them all would be a little bit unrealistic and not very useful since the name doesn't tell us much of anything other than a slightly easier way to identify them.

As I said, however, in this instance we're talking about one of many potential isotopes of the element. Even if the amount of time is as insignificant as it is, there will likely be other isotopes that can be formed that will be much more stable, allowing more time for manipulation and research before it decays.

I have a company party I need to go to, so I will come back to this later.

Varine said:

Key word: Probably. We haven't though, so it doesn't matter, and even if you could force them together for planks of time, that doesn't make it acceptable as an element because it may not necessarily meet the definitions of an element (which are, admittedly, not very well defined). However, I agree, it would likely be possible to do so, but that would lead to some unlimited numbers of configurations, so naming them all would be a little bit unrealistic and not very useful since the name doesn't tell us much of anything other than a slightly easier way to identify them.

As I said, however, in this instance we're talking about one of many potential isotopes of the element. Even if the amount of time is as insignificant as it is, there will likely be other isotopes that can be formed that will be much more stable, allowing more time for manipulation and research before it decays.

I have a company party I need to go to, so I will come back to this later.

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Well said. It seems you have more knowledge on this topic then I admittedly do. To add to your assertion earlier about my background in pure science: No, I can't say that I do have a lot of experience. I am a computer scientist. I have taken college courses in chem/bio/physics but it's not my intention to get too much deeper than I already am.

I do; however, have a very strong thirst for knowledge. Anything that I can steal from your brain is a coveted thing to me. I'd like to think that I pretty decently understand a wide variety of topics, though. I make for good conversation from time to time, no?

Maybe we should organise some sort of Helper Gathering?

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HOLY SHIT YES WE SHOULD!!!