Abortion 3

[DogOfHavoc]

Atheism (or agnosticism in my case) doesn't mean one is immoral, rather most of these people believe in ethics. This means that acts have right and wrong consequences simply because they affect others in a way that others view as good or bad. I personally can not accept a respect for life on religious grounds. I do however respect life on simple humanist grounds. I think it is wrong to kill someone else because it will hurt their families and those who love them. It doesn't hurt them because they are dead. A zygote can't think, and thus does not really contain the one thing that I think defines a human being, consciousness and thought. It it the mind that defines a person and sets them above animals.

 

[Varine]

I know that they do, I just don't understand the belief system behind it. Probably because I am religious, and have the same grounds as you, where we fail to understand why the other believes what they do.

 

[sqrage]

>>as generally when the baby is a mass of cells it can be taken care of with a morning after pill or something similar, which I can understand.

Well we have reached some common ground. I do agree that in the later stages of pregnancy it is wrong to abort, but definitely think that at such an early stage people should be given the choice.

 

[Varine]

Well we have reached some common ground. I do agree that in the later stages of pregnancy it is wrong to abort, but definitely think that at such an early stage people should be given the choice.

To some extent, once it starts forming into a body I don't think it should be okay, but things like the morning after pill are different because I just kind of doubt that it's begun development of any form of thought process for at least the first few days. I actually don't know much about pregnancy, no way in hell is anyone I am ever with getting an abortion.

 

[Pineapple]

The morning after pill does not terminate a pregnancy as far as I am aware, it prevents it. Like a condom.

 

[Varine]

The morning after pill does not terminate a pregnancy as far as I am aware, it prevents it. Like a condom.

Because it's in the process of the development, and hasn't yet become something more than cells... right? I haven't taken a health class for a long time, I just thought it worked by stopping the impregnated egg that has yet to begin the process of development of vitalities or whatever and won't let it stick in the uterus like it should be doing.

I don't know. Do whatever the fuck you want I don't care I'm tired of arguing I don't know about the process. And since it's not going to become illegal for a while now... I'm not going to post anymore here for the night how's that?

 

[Pineapple]

Because it's in the process of the development, and hasn't yet become something more than cells... right? I haven't taken a health class for a long time, I just thought it worked by stopping the impregnated egg that has yet to begin the process of development of vitalities or whatever and won't let it stick in the uterus like it should be doing.

I don't know. Do whatever the fuck you want I don't care I'm tired of arguing I don't know about the process. And since it's not going to become illegal for a while now... I'm not going to post anymore here for the night how's that?

Calm down. Its a debate not a lets all agree

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Anyway. It would be idiotic of me to have nothing to back up my previous statement, so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception

"Emergency contraception (EC), or emergency postcoital contraception, refers to contraceptive measures that, if taken after sex, may prevent pregnancy."

"are drugs that act both to prevent ovulation or fertilization and possibly post-fertilization implantation of a blastocyst (embryo). ECPs are distinct from medical abortion methods that act after implantation"

So it does not stop development. If the egg is fertilized it wont work. Sperm is not super speeded, the second it goes off people are not pregnant.

 

[Varine]

Calm down. Its a debate not a lets all agree

No, I just don't know what I'm talking about anymore.

 

[CatCat]

I find that people should shift the attention to preventing the whole unwanted baby situation. Instead of arguing pro life or pro choice we should realize that no-one wants to be in a situation where one has to choose to kill her fetus/baby or not. The only reason there is such a big fuss about abortion is because there are so many of them every minute.

This may sound very naive; but we should be concentrating on better sexual education, better and more available contraceptives. Or perhaps we aren't even aware of the root cause of all these "accidents" in any case we should not focus on whether abortion should be legal/illega

we find it easy to stereotype.
We say that those stupid teenagers should have thought twice before making the potentially biggest mistake of their lives, But do we have enough proof to make these claims? why do we even have this stereotypical images in our heads in the first place? One of the biggest problems in the world is ignorance. Perhaps it would be easier to debate or perhaps even discuss about this topic if we can better insight.

Maybe the norm is too lax. "If" one was to get pregnant it wouldn't really matter because you could remove the unwanted baby anyways.

Maybe people do take this seriously but just don't know that there are many forms of contraceptives (like the morning after pill).

Maybe it's something else. Maybe a combination. But I am sure there is an alternative to solve our problems without making the proposition or the opposition too angry. <3

 

[Varine]

Have you ever met a girl that didn't what a morning after pill is?

There really isn't many other options... I mean, if you have sex, you have sex, can't make babies very many other ways unless you want it or are really really drunk and go to a bad doctor.

 

[ElderKingpin]

I find that people should shift the attention to preventing the whole unwanted baby situation. Instead of arguing pro life or pro choice we should realize that no-one wants to be in a situation where one has to choose to kill her fetus/baby or not. The only reason there is such a big fuss about abortion is because there are so many of them every minute.

This may sound very naive; but we should be concentrating on better sexual education, better and more available contraceptives. Or perhaps we aren't even aware of the root cause of all these "accidents" in any case we should not focus on whether abortion should be legal/illega

we find it easy to stereotype.
We say that those stupid teenagers should have thought twice before making the potentially biggest mistake of their lives, But do we have enough proof to make these claims? why do we even have this stereotypical images in our heads in the first place? One of the biggest problems in the world is ignorance. Perhaps it would be easier to debate or perhaps even discuss about this topic if we can better insight.

Maybe the norm is too lax. "If" one was to get pregnant it wouldn't really matter because you could remove the unwanted baby anyways.

Maybe people do take this seriously but just don't know that there are many forms of contraceptives (like the morning after pill).

Maybe it's something else. Maybe a combination. But I am sure there is an alternative to solve our problems without making the proposition or the opposition too angry. <3

Its stereo typical because, for the love of all that is good in this universe,
ABC MADE A SHOW ABOUT IT, yes you probably have heard about it. "The secret life of a teenager" for the love of wc3 man, why would anyone even do that. Why did i bring that up? because in the show, the teenager, whatever her name is... was thinking about abortion, ABC made a point that abortion IS an option, and if im correct the commercial had it where the baby was close to being born. Considering the only other options for not wanting a baby is "i dont like responsibility (responsibility is inside every choice you make, btw)" "It was by accident (accident my foot)" if it was by rape, then adoption, abortion just isnt right either way, whether people believe the human by conception or it becomes a baby after a certain time, or its a baby only when it comes out.

CatCat, i honestly believe, you are trying to make everyone happy, and that ends out making no one happy. (socialism ftl)

>This may sound very naive; but we should be concentrating on better sexual education, better and more available contraceptives.
That might help, but you left something out.. curiosity, maybe a person just wants to try it. It could happen, the variables of life can take down any argument.

 

[Varine]

OR! Just saying OR... we don't teach kids sex until they're 17?

 

[CatCat]

Oh dear
well first of all
My aim with writing that post was to open people's minds about abortion, I wasn't choosing sides, yet.

Second. no I haven't seen the show ABC made, in fact I don't watch TV at all nor do I use documentries to bolster my arguements.

Third. You make it seem like life is full of responsiblitys and duties, but i'm not quite sure it is. It seems you immediatly conclude that if a teenager were to be bearing a child that it was no accident because it was her choice and she should take responsiblity. You then state that abortion should be out of the question anyways but I couldn't find a logical arguement for that claim Quote: "abortion just isnt right either way" other than because you believe in it.

Fourth.You then claim that I am trying to make everyone happy and socialism sucks
You are correct I am a peacemongering idiot that will do just about anything to open minds. Perhaps socialism isn't the best way to go perhaps it is, but frankly I don't care. What I do care about it why people thought that socialism is better than other systems or why democarcy was the best. Why aztecs thought that they were still sane after sacrifising people every day just so that the sun would rise, or why cults, sects, nazis were right for doing whatever they did.
One would immediatly condemn those people crazy, what is going on in their heads?! they must be completely nuts!! How on earth could they still be the same human I claim to be?
But the answer is actually quite obvious because there is no right opinion.
Everything only goes from the top of our heads to the bottom of our spinal cord. You have to realise that other people are just as right as you in their own way, finding out why they think that way and realising it instead of saying that it "omg wtf you're so stupid flame flame flame" Or "that's so obvious everybody thinks that way" is the only way to truly respect eachother.

Fifth.I never really unveiled my true standings on this debate; but I think it's time.
I am against abortion, I find that having an abortion because it's EASY, fast, morally O.k. etc. is just wrong for our society and is not the right way to go. I want to change the whole way we look at things, I want to educate people, make them more independant, and more secure. I do not CARE whether people find that having an abortion is "killing" someone yes/no, to me that is not relevant. I want to change the mentality of people making them think long term and for themselves and others.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death so you can say it. But please try to open your mind.

 

[Nigerianrulz]

If you say abortion is bad then what about the other few thousands of billions of sperm you've wasted?

They are life too.

Btw im not saying abortion is not bad.

 

[Vicboy]

It's one of the greatest pleasures in life and masturbation doesn't even compare.

Never thought of it that way...

 

[ElderKingpin]

If you say abortion is bad then what about the other few thousands of billions of sperm you've wasted?

They are life too.

Btw im not saying abortion is not bad.

Sperm is not a human person until it is conceived into the egg, then that one cell will multiply, and so on and so forth.

 

[Squll2]

Ok, hold up, just my view on the thing here.

The people who want abortions illegal.

Edit: This is based on my view that people who want abortions are usually young teens.

-You want people to screw up their whole lives, by having a baby and having to care for it and sacrifice all their time studying and becoming a moral, intelligent human being, for another child.

-You want the screwed up teenagers who have been doping and getting smashed all their lives to have a baby, who will be oh, so wonderful?

-This will almost inevitably end up in being a child who will make MORE children like this or even worse, turn to crime, perhaps even the mother may turn to crime to earn money as she has no degree or any knowledge at all to get a proper job.

 

[Faust]

A fetus is an object, it is not alive.
Killing a fetus is like cutting your hair or popping a zit.
The infant is a part of the woman's body, the infant itself shows no life signs.

Even an infant is unable to survive without 7/24 supervision, and all they do is whine and eat and shit.
Now, most of the people will feel at a certain age, that they will accept this, and they want to raise a child.

If you are not willing nor able to raise a child and cope with all the mess, you will raise a horrible kid, and his/her life will suck and so will yours.

Until it can talk, until it can cope with situations, express it's feelings, learn and repeat, solve simple tasks, it is not sentient, it is not alive, and may be terminated at any time.

 

[Varine]

So basically you think you should be able to kill a baby up until it can talk? Dude... no. Just because it's incapable of living on it's own doesn't make it not alive. And it does shows life signs after it's been created. It might not show 'sentient' signs of life, but that doesn't really mean a thing. How would we know whether or not it can think? We don't because we don't know how thought works.

 

[ElderKingpin]

id like to point out it is alive even at conception, if it was dead, it wouldnt be constantly moving, you cant kill it, because its alive. Thats usually the hugest loop in abortion, "is it a human or not?"

Debater1: Yes its a human
Debater2: No its not man
Debater1: "Long freaking speech on what being alive is"
Debater2: "Long freaking speech on what being alive is"
Debater1: "Longer Speech"
Debater2: "Longer Speech"

We cant answer this question, because no one can decide for sure. Its not like murder, where it is 100% wrong. Abortion is murder cept, no one knows for sure if its wrong or not. We just dont have a super uber epic omega sized genius that will know.

Again id like to point out that government shouldnt be spending money on it

>Squll2
Point 1: Squll2 the thing is, do you know what makes the pain of childhood worth it? When you did it right, and you stand back, and see your child, come out and be better then what you were, you are proud that you have raised it right. That end time, makes it worth it, i am sure.