AoS Concepts

esb

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>@MikeTheGuy: And what does that achieve?

If you meant about having more abilities than the hero can actually use, a few things. Not all heroes will be the same, like in most maps, people choose heroes based on skills. If you had more abilities than they can use, it would require strategy, to plan abilities that support each other, like having Thorns aura, Avatar, over Vampiric Aura and Avatar (Random example) for a tank hero.
It will also increase the playability, instead of people only playing to see each hero, they would try to find better strategies with different types of abilities, some better than others.
 

Arcane

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I meant about moving bases.

I edited it. Sorry. :p
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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Well, since you want to keep the focus on the action part of it, I think having battle arenas or something that happen every so often would be a little more captivating.
Like, every minute or so have some minigame that involves a couple of the players. Like have them put into an arena and have their heroes fight for some amount of time, or have some kind of minigame where they have to kill some amount of creeps first, and the winner gets gold or experience for them or their team (might also be nice to have a team-based reward system rather than player).
 

pheonixashes

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Haven't posted in a while....


Try making capturable "nodes."

Some of them can be on the main paths, while some of them can be in the creep areas. These nodes provide constant bonuses to your team (Healing Fountains when not under attack, small damage bonuses, the like).

An optimum amount of nodes would probably be around 7-9, not too many.

Each team (assuming there is two), starts with 2-3 nodes each, and has to capture the rest from neutral forces.

You can teleport to nodes your team has captured.
 

2-P

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>"Like, every minute or so have some minigame that involves a couple of the players. Like have them put into an arena and..."
massinfantry said:
AoSes are about the lanes.

>"Who will even take a hero "specialized in movement"?"

Actually, from all the heroes I've played in AoSes, my favourite hero is a "movement based" hero.
I don't see anything wrong with siege/support/whatever heroes, you just shouldn't overdo it (as in, don't make a hero which is completely unable to kill another hero or a few creeps).
Good in the the beginning/later on is of course crap. ^^

>"A system that would ensure balance regardless of XP and hero levels."

I never found level differences to be that much of a problem. The basic Warcraft XP system already helps a lot, the lower your level is, the faster you level up.
It's also very useful to design the AoS in the way that spawns actually matter and are not cannon fodder for the heroes. If you have powerful spawns, the stronger enemy hero won't be able to kill you as long as you stay besides your spawns.
And in most of the extreme cases, the players just suck. And having everyone on the same level won't help them anyway. :p
 

Sooda

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Equality in creep waves for both sides gets boring. They could use spells and tactics to suddenly gank enemy hero with net + all forces. AI that could wait for second wave to make one huge push. Similar to paper/ scissors/ rock game where both creep waves choose randomly tactics for next engage.
 

Arcane

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@Sooda: Creeps ganking enemy heroes?
That sounds good on paper, but it'd be kind of "wtf" for players being ganked. (OMG hax! Your stupid creeps killed me!)

And random events that seriously affect the battlefield are pretty "meh". What if one computer is more lucky...? Players should be able to have control over almost everything in an AoS, especially since they only control one unit... gives them more to do as well as adding strategy. (When and where do I spawn this mercenary wave?)


In addition, AoSes are about heroes. Yes creeps exist. Yes creeps do serve a purpose. But what you control is the hero, and creeps serve only as supportive weapons.

Like this: A single hero shouldn't be able to just drive his way through a huge clump of enemy creeps without taking major damage, but if he has creeps on his side, then he can easily clear out the creeps.

Or this: A single hero can't rush into the enemy expansion and cast some OMGWTF apocalypse spell to annihilate all of the towers in one go, but with creeps there taking damage for him, distracting enemies, then he probably can.

Under supportive heroes, creeps can become even deadlier weapons, but one or two AoE spells and they're dead, period. (Of course that smells of imbalance and would have to be worked on...)


Edit: Re-reading 2-P's post, maybe a Cover type ability on creeps that gives you stackable defense bonuses. o_O
The more creeps you have, the more "powerful" you get.
 
S

Spider666

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-Make heroes start at max level and just let them choose the abilities, you probably want to make more abilities available than the hero can have at time if you go for this

i like this idea

and i like the idea of you building up a hero

heres how i would make it work

- Have a variable that keeps track of your would be xp and when it reaches a certain amount then allow the hero to "purchase" or acquire another skill or upgrade a current one.

so then its still like your leveling but the stats dont go up just the power level of skills. ;)
 

2-P

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>"- Have a variable that keeps track of your would be xp and when it reaches a certain amount then allow the hero to "purchase" or acquire another skill or upgrade a current one. "

Or you just start at level 1 without increasing the stat points at a level up...

The problem with all those "ideas" is that in 95% of the AoSes you can see that the map makers haven't really thought enough (if at all) about their ideas. You know... think about the consequences if you implement new features.

I actually made an AoS map where the hero stats don't increase. But that causes problems... You have spells that get stronger and stronger, but heroes that stay "weak". Especially the relation between damage spells and hero health might get tricky if you understand what I mean. The game can get very... "intense" later on. o_O

>"maybe a Cover type ability on creeps that gives you stackable defense bonuses. o_O
The more creeps you have, the more "powerful" you get."

Yeah, but imagine you push a lane with a lot of spawns, the defending heroes are already in trouble. Now with some crazy hax bonus for the attackers... @.@ GG
 

jhnam95

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i'm still w8ing for a custom hero AoS
Unlikely that'll happen for then the heroes would get unbalanced
But if you could balance it out...
Such as all heroes can only get like 2 atck abilities at once not counting the ult
Etc...

Make 1-3 suggestions for noobs
See the thing about dota is that it's very difficult for a noob to find out exactly what he needs and wants
Especially with their lack of gold
Give them a few suggestions like for hero A, it would be good to get items B,C, and D at start and etc.
They won't be too great but hopefully better than what they were going for in the first place (usually it sucks or good but difficult to get)

The descriptions must be Short and Sweet
About 5-7 lines is good. Then you could put the rest info in quests
The description is the short summary of wut's in the quest boxes

The exp problem:
It's always a problem because you get outleveled too easily once you die.
You shouldn't get rid of the problem
You shouldn't leave it alone
You should solve it: make it so that if you die, the exp gets reduced
Example: If 1 person dies, the exp percentage is 75%, 2 ppl 66% 3 ppl 50% or w/e u want it to be

The money problem:
Don't make it too ez or too difficult to obtain
If you are outleveled or have crappy items, go for the creeps (You should make them so they can support the ppl who are falling behind)
Make it so that the money is the same as the exp 1 person dies 75% and so on...

That's pretty much wut i want so that the game will be balanced for both noobs and pros. (Although only with slight advantage) It might not work out. It's just a suggestion
 

Arcane

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Whoops, forgot about this entirely... been playing Starcraft. :rolleyes:

@2-P:

The problem with all those "ideas" is that in 95% of the AoSes you can see that the map makers haven't really thought enough (if at all) about their ideas. You know... think about the consequences if you implement new features.
Yep. You don't implement new features just for the sake of implementing new features. If they don't serve a purpose, then they're useless really. A lot of people just think: "wow, it'd be cool to have this", and put it in without a second thought.

The more creeps you have, the more "powerful" you get."

Yeah, but imagine you push a lane with a lot of spawns, the defending heroes are already in trouble. Now with some crazy hax bonus for the attackers... @.@ GG
If you think about it, this actually works pretty well. It helps define (wrong word?) the role of heroes. Support heroes can mass up a lot of creeps with their super-bonus-abilities + auras, and thus get something out of it. Pushing heroes have powerful AoE damage abilities which serve to counter the masses of creeps, and hero killers kill pushers to prevent masses of creeps from being killed, or kill supporters for masses of creeps to not exist - but hero killers themselves can't really mass up creeps or get rid of creeps as easily.


@jhnam95:

Make 1-3 suggestions for noobs
Isn't finding out strategies and builds all part of the game?
Though of course, doing what DotA does is just wrong.

The trick is to have very simple items, but infinite combinations and possibilities.

The exp problem:
"I never found level differences to be that much of a problem." - 2-P

crappy items
No item should be crappy... and if there are "better" items, they should only be better marginally, and be obtainable only through good effort and good skill.

(Take the "better" items in Desert of Exile for instance, they reduce/increase the duration of "conditions" (buffs really) inflicted, which can really help, but it doesn't allow you to totally dominate the game, and requires faction (obtained from hero kills) to purchase.)

go for the creeps
Bad idea. What purpose do neutral creeps serve except to distract players? It's like control points in remote areas of the map. You want to keep the focus all on the lanes. Everything about AoSes is on the lanes, why would you want to take players away from the action?

That's pretty much wut i want so that the game will be balanced for both noobs and pros.
That's impossible. There's a reason why there are those two categories... Somebody with prior experience with the map will (almost) always be better than somebody who is playing it for the first time. The best thing you can do is to make it easy to learn but difficult to master. Really, AoS maps aren't all that difficult to get a hang of. As long as you've played other AoSes before, trying out a new one isn't all that hard. (As long as the "features" in it aren't totally befuddling.)
 

jhnam95

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is chess difficult? (Example)
It's easy to learn (More simple than dota)
But ultimately, way more difficult to master
You just have to pay attention to what's going on and react to it quickly and strategize
That's the basic concept of any kind of game
All games require some kind of mental skill
Equal in noobs and pros
Of course impossible but can you make it so that it is more equalized?
That is possible
Give noobs tips and help here and there. Judging by ur previous posts on this thread, you seem to have some experience in map making. Use triggers to find out who is falling behind for that is usually the noob. That will even the games out. If others start thinking that isn't fair, deal with it. We were all noobs once. It's like when you are first learning to stand and someone is holding your hands just in case you don't fall. That's only until you can stand on your own.

The exp has always been a problem for if you die once, you get outleveled so easily and causes a chain reaction by feeding and eventually, the opponent gets too strong for any of your allies to defeat. Is that what you want? If you are a pro, it's not much of an obstacle for you but to others, it makes the game more challenging (Bringing back to the pro and noob thing)

The items:
Yes it is about building your own hero customizing in every aspect according to your own wants. But what if you don't know how? What good is having the best idea or combination but lack the skills to get it? Or you know all the combinations and you have all the gold you need but you have no idea what to go for. You don't want others to know that you are a noob, so usually we end up going for whatever seems nice and simple. The people who are new to any game has no idea what they are doing. We all experienced it. We got over it, but not fast enough. If we suck, we get put on banlists. Sure it's only for a short amount of time, but you still wouldn't want it. Giving them tips and suggestions isnt telling them what to do, it's a guideline. It's not going to be what they want for the whole game, it's just for the first few games. It makes it more fun for them by giving them a decent chance.

The creeps:
No, you wouldn't go for the creeps. Yes they're there just for support, but think about it: has anything in dota ever not have any kind of use? Dota has all the aspects of the game calculated perfectly. They have the creeps for a reason. The reason is for a fallback just in case you start falling behind. If you start going for the lanes, the heroes will kill you too fast. Imagine going to the land and you think it's mia when someone pops out and kills you. That's what the creeps are for.
 

Arcane

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Give noobs tips and help here and there.
If the basic concept is the same, newbies shouldn't have any problems at all when playing. (And if they have never touched an AoS ever before, and have no common sense whatsoever, then it's not my fault.) The only problem left will be of "experience" (it's always handy to know what kind of tricks your opponent may play on you), and I can't help people with that - they have to see it first hand.


The exp has always been a problem for if you die once, you get outleveled so easily
It hasn't been that much of a problem really. One level or two won't make a lot of difference. Sure, the other player now has a distinct advantage, but there's no reason why you can't fight back still. And if you somehow manage to die two times in a row, (screw up two times in a row) then it's really your own fault, and the now sizeable gap is justified. (All this is assuming both players are of more or less equal level, if one of them is a newbie, see answer to the first point.)


But what if you don't know how?
If the person had any common sense, they would know how... This item adds 5 intelligence, I'm an intelligence hero. That seems good for me. Anything that increases the capability of your hero is good. Some combinations might be "more for you" than for others. Maybe some people prefer some more hit points instead of intelligence. It all depends on playstyle doesn't it?


has anything in dota ever not have any kind of use?
Boy I could say a lot about this, but I choose not to - I'm not going to turn this into a flame war. Anyways, as I pointed out above, one or two levels gives the opponent an advantage, but if one or two levels allowed him to completely own you, even if you were being as careful and as skilled as you were supposed to be, then I'd say the game has balance problems. If the game doesn't have balance problems, then staying behind your creeps for a minute or two will earn you back the experience you need, since lower leveled heroes gain experience faster.
 

jhnam95

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u no wut
i stand corrected in some things
of course i would argue more
but then again, it's ur map so...
do what u will
i'm not saying the argument was pointless or anything
i just give up
(first time for everything :D)
 
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