Balance patch coming - around "middle of September"

[Sevion]

As everyone has said, Zerg can only beat Terran if the opponent sucks.

 

[Cornface]

MnM are both tier one, so to match him all i can get is roaches n lings at that point, then when i get tier 2 hydras he gets freakin siege tanks, and by the time id get brood/ultras hes got thors and bcruisers (in which case he wins)

I am by no means a Starcraft II pro. But first of all, the main weakness of the terran army is that it is slow, inmobile, especially a mech army with majority of tanks and thors, use it to your advantage. Fast Mutas and harass his mineral line always works, especially if he has his army in a bad spot. Just make sure he doesn't detect your mutas/spire too early. Abusing Nydus worms, creep, speedlings, overlord drops etc is always an option, but I guess it all comes down to how good you and your opponent are, and what league you are in, really.

ZvT is possible, and I have no troubles facing them (in the high gold league at least ) Warp Gate rushing Toss on the other hand, ouuch.

 

[Sevion]

Okay, get some Mutas and attack his Thors and see what happens.

Rushing Toss is always beatable. Scout him and Roach Rush.

 

[Arkless]

Okay, get some Mutas and attack his Thors and see what happens.

Rushing Toss is always beatable. Scout him and Roach Rush.

I reread his post twice and no matter how often I do, it still says: Mech is slow so attack his mineral line with mutas. Where does he tell you to attack the thors?

 

[Sevion]

Sweet. Attack his minerals. While he kills your base. And all you have are Mutas to harass.

 

[celerisk]

" Rushing Toss is always beatable "

Is it? Wow, impressive.


" As everyone has said, Zerg can only beat Terran if the opponent sucks "

Not everyone. Me not. Actually, mostly you.
Come to think of it, I'd suggest you play Terran exclusively as it's obviously the only choice.


" MnM are both tier one, so to match him all i can get is roaches n lings at that point,
then when i get tier 2 hydras he gets freakin siege tanks,
and by the time id get brood/ultras hes got thors and bcruisers (in which case he wins) "

- You're too slow
- You're not expanding enough
- You're not getting enough troops
- You're not scouting nearly enough
- All of the above


" Weeeeellll as much as I'd like to agree, I disagree ... "

Losing to 30 Stalkers with 3 Colossus is, while not exactly "normal", acceptable.
Losing to 10 Thors (even without any support) is, while not exactly "normal", acceptable.
Losing to 30 Hydralisks with 20 Roaches is, while not exactly "normal", acceptable.

All of those, and plenty other such combinations, are all within, or close to , "Doom Army".

What I'd actually like to know is what kind of games you play to actually get or see those.
But, yes, from the TH tournament replays, I can see where this is coming from


" I always got my infestors sniped "

Welcome to the club.
Though, that's because I tend to have them in the very front lines, soaking up damage to protect the actual troops behind them

Fungal Growth is epic, and clearly not used enough.
Neural Parasite is crap... it's totally great in theory, and, actually, at some point it was.
But, well, nowadays it's just not worth it.
Back in the days, I managed, at times, to have a Siege Tank, my own that is, in my base.
Then they thought 12 seconds is enough for everybody.
Ever since no one's ever using it. Or even just getting it.
FG is still epic though.


" Also banelings kinda suck against mech "

Not really mech. Or, let's say, not only.
It's more that they don't do that well against high hitpoint high damage stuff.

Then again, there was this recent GSL game where Check actually killed Thors with Banelings.
'course, he had like 40-50 of them at any given time

They also need the speed upgrade.


" And all you have are Mutas to harass "

That one too is a rather interesting problem.

A: I totally owned him with Mutas!
B: Cool
A: Then he just walked out his base with 50 Marines and a handful of Medivacs
A: UNSTOPPABLE! DAMN TERRAN!
B: What else did you build?
A: What?
B: What else did you build, besides those Mutalisks?
A: What?
B: So, you didn't build anything else?
A: What?
A: WTF, MAN! TERRAN IS OP!!!

You never had that kind of conversation of course?


" But if ... constantly expands and harrases you, it is damn hard to stop his final push when it comes "

Precisely. That's how I win my games as Zerg.

 

[Viikuna]

Ive just seen too many games where zerg is slightly better during the whole game. He has little bit better economy than terran. He harrases little bit better. He generally plays better all the time.

Then the terran push comes and he gets pwned, because zerg simply lacks tools to fight a strong durable AoE damage dealing terran mech ball that burns everything in its way.


And usually people just respond that "you should have expanded more", "you should have harrased more" and bullshit like that.

I mean how much better you have to expand and harras to be able to win?

 

[celerisk]

" I mean how much better you have to expand and harras to be able to win? "

Given we're currently on vague, general statements, here's another one: " More than your opponent ".


Zerg has all the tools it needs.
Which brings us to the second Zerg specific problem (economy being the top "feature"):

Scouting.


Zerg scouting is bad.

Fly some Mutalisks over his base.
Suicide an Overlord.
Try an Overseer (faster, so he may make it out).
Run some Zerglings through his base (if possible) and expansion (usually works).
...

Anything goes, really.
It's OK to lose an Overlord to scouting, as long as you see what takes him down.

However, contrary to other races, Zerg need much more of it.
Zerg is primarily a macro race.
You don't exactly micro 20 Zerglings. At least not one by one. It's more like "all here" or "all there".

Which also means that you have to react more to your opponent.
If you didn't see his base for like 3 minutes, chances are he'll have something you're not prepared for.

It's not that you can't get that info, it's that you need it much more often than other races.
If you mass Roaches because you're waiting for that Colossus / Stalker... then, suddenly, 3 Void Rays fly in...

And, well, harassing is a very good way to get that info.
It's purpose is not only to slow him down (kill workers, tech labs, pylons, ... anything that is easily killed), it's also to see what's coming.
And, hopefully, prepare for it.
Though, yes, at times it really seems like preparing isn't enough and you'd better turn psychic.

Still, Zerg aren't impossible to play.
Different.
Very different.


And, let's not forget that they are currently going extinct in the GSL.


Another point of interest: how to solve those problems?
Shouting IMBA and FAIL is easy. But doesn't help anything.

Ideas are always a better way

As such, I'm just trying not to die too often, and am patiently waiting for things to come.
They will come.
When they do, I'm ready.

The Swarm shall prevail.
Some day

 

[Cornface]

Okay, get some Mutas and attack his Thors and see what happens.

Rushing Toss is always beatable. Scout him and Roach Rush.

Well, like Arkless said, Thors annihilate Mutalisks completely, so that is not my point. The whole point of the muta harass is to stop his advance, and use the Mutas powerful mobility to keep your opponent off balance by completely terrorizing his mineral lines, I've seen many players back off when you go with your mutas in his main/expos, becuase sometimes he doesn't really have a choice. If mech terran is unsure what you got, he can either
A: Back off and defend, losing some workers, maybe some buildings.
B: Attack you, take a big risk, might cost him the game if he lose the battle.
Many players chose A. (The bad ones) The good ones usually have an option C.

When he goes to attack with his fat mech army, well, you should have a pretty baller army yourself too, or you did something horribly wrong. You can't only go mutas, obviously. (But if you watch high level diamond players, You might see some go Speedling, baneling, Muta build, because it is cheap, mobile and destructive) My whole point with the muta harass is to keep him focused on the muta harass/nydas worms/overlords drops/whatever long enough for you to have the upper hand, because, lets face it. Sure, Zerg might have a problem versus Terran, but it's sure as hell beatable, especially if you outsmart and outplay your opponent.

Also. Roach rushing vs an walled off protoss with fuckaloads of stalkers backing up his wall, is that really the best option?

 

[Viikuna]

Zerg do lacks some tool and is broken. Scouting is one serious problem.

Drone

Since terran and protoss have their economy boosting abilities, zerg economy really suffers early.
-Zerg needs larva for all 3 fighters and gatherers and builders.
-Losing drones to harras early hurts zerg more than other races.
Zerg needs lil buff to early economy, or terran and protoss nerf to theirs.

Zerling

Is stupid. Needs better AI really. Ever tried to fight a thor surrounded by repairin scv's?

Overlord

Could be lil faster. Its pretty cool guy. Its transport upgrades are lil slow to research and costly, though.

Queen

I actually like this girl. Its just that protoss and terran macro mechanics are way better.

Hydralisk

I like the concept of fragile damage dealer.
Could hugely benefit from Darkswarm.
Also could use maybe lil bit movespeed of the creep, or then zerg could use easier creep spreading mechanics for those guys who dont have korean APM and has to focus on fighting and stuff.

Baneling

This little fella is cool. I wouldnt change him a bit.
He just cant do all the AoE damage dealing zerg needs, so zerg needs some new stuff too.

Overseer

Changeling is useless. That ability needs to be remaked. Something that allows us to see behind the wall. Contamine is kinda cool idea, but Im not sure how usefull ability it is in reality.

Roach
I kinda like the concept of stupid bugs that just doesnt want to die. Thats what roach is supposed to be, and sometimes it is. It still could use some work, like having burrow default without having to research it or something. Less suply cost would be cool too.

Infestor

Neural Parasite is useless. Mind controlling is pretty cool concept though, so I hope they remake it to be better.

Infested terran is really lame and stupid ability. Zerg doesnt need another harrasing mechanic, and this is all this is usefull for. It seems that Blizzard just wanted to include this unit to the game, but couldnt think any cool way to do it.

Fungal growth is cool, but it cant fill the ranged AoE damage role zerg is currelty lacking. Its still a cool ability, though.

Stuff infestor could use:

Darkswarm would be awesome to prevent enemy focus firing your ultras, to maybe keep your lings alive so they can actually attack, to protect your 80-hp-vulnerable-damage-dealer hydras from enemy fire.

Plague to hurt enemy army ball or those buildings he uses to block his door. Zerg currently lacks AoE damage ability. ( Fungal growth doesnt count. )


Mutalisk

Cool unit. Cant think anything to say here right now. Its fast flyer and thats really cool.

Corruptor

Corruption ability is just a placeholder and sucks terribly. Needs to be remaked, with hopefully something that works well with loads of low damage units zerg has. ( AoE acid spore ability, maybe? )

Nudys Worm

Its cool. Just remove the sound when theres no enemy nearby to hear it and its perfect.

Ultralisk

Its supid as fuck. Big and gets stuck. Blocks your zerlings.

Then again its awesome and damn strong.

With better AI and bigger attack range, it could maybe work well with zerlings, though. I like this guy. Cleave and Frenzy are cool abilities for it.

Broodlord

Another unit I like. Its very good in what it does, but pretty easy to counter, though. Mass corruptor + few Broodlord is pretty cool concept and everything.


Lurker

Cool unit, but zerg already has so much anti-ground units that I dont think it fits in this unit composition. Roach should take its role as a stealth attacker somehow, I suppose.

 

[celerisk]

I think it would already help if we started with 11 supply instead of just 10.


Zerglings definitely are the true Heroes of the Swarm.
No other unit comes even just close in overall kill-count and versatility.
It's the only unit I'm certain to get every single game, beginning to end.

Some game, a long time ago (placement match), there was this pathetic Terran that thought his 6 Thors with 30 Marines and 10+ Marauders could make a difference.
Turns out that 4 Broodlords, 6-7 Mutalisks, all of 2 Hydralisks and a ton of Zerglings was enough to get me the "Meatgrinder" achievement (kill 50 supply within 15 seonds).
Zerglings, around 50 or more, had +2 / +1, with both Metabolic Boost and Adrenal Glands.


Chrono Boost is cooler than Mules. And has many more uses.
The Queen though is one of the greatest additions to the swarm.
Perhaps a bit faster, especially off creep.

On my "List of Things to do" is also a note that says to bring a Queen through the Nydus Worm, transfuse an Ultralisk and retreat quietly.
I'm sure I'll get to it some day.


All Zerg want faster Hydralisks. With more hitpoints. And more damage. And higher firing rate. And more ... but, yes, well, let's just keep them the way they are. Better save (they work now) than sorry (too strong, needs a nerf).


I guess you're not using Banelings enough.
They deal insane damage to bio-balls.
Provided, of course, you get there. But, then again, if they simply were attack-move units... would just mean that whoever gets the most the fastest wins.


Use your Overseer to "see over walls".
And drop a Changeling in a quiet corner while doing so.

Contaminate is great. Also fits the Zerg idea well.
Scout a base... blinking Starport... I've no idea what'll come out of it, but I do know it will now take 30 seconds longer to do so. That's that already.

My "List of Things to do" also notes that I should bring a couple to the front-door-attack and prevent reinforcements.


They tried Roaches with "less supply cost".
Result was that whoever got the most the fastest...

Perform well against a great many things. Really great when backed up by Hydralisks.


Dear Blizzard, BRING BACK PERMANENT NEURAL PARASITE! This "12 seconds is enough for everybody" is major ... NSFW.

The Infested Terran can shoot Void Rays!

Infestors can cast it while burrowed.
Dig your way to an expansion, start a diversion somewhere, drop 10+ in the mineral line.
Dig your way to an expansion, get ready to drop a Nydus Worm, drop Infested Terrans as a diversion in the mineral line.

Both on my "List of Things to do".
Along with: it's nice to have them safely back in your base where nothing will ever happen to them and they can build up all the energy they'll ever need, but it would REALLY HELP if you got them near the front line for Fungal Growth, and WITHOUT having them as the front's meat-shield.
I'm still working on that one.

I wouldn't mind if a contaminated structure started spawning Infested Terrans.


Ever used Corruption?
Me not.
I also don't remember ever seeing it used...


Ever used Frenzy?
I don't think anyone ever did.


Broodlords really could be cheaper.
Yes, they are amazing. And, at times, a real game changer. But, damn are those expensive. And slow to get. And just slow.


I don't see many, or any at all that is, Protoss complain about lack of AoE.
Actually, there's not all that many units that have it.
Siege Tanks obviously. Thors against air, but you shouldn't clump your Mutalisks anyway. And you also don't attack 5 Thors with your 10 Mutalisks...
Colossus? That AoE only really works against Marines and Zerg.

I'm much more annoyed by Sentries. Up to the point where I lose games because I tend to suicide units just to take them out.
Still, I may lose the game, but those suckers died! Sometimes, that's more important than a simple win.

 

[Bloodcount]

The thing is taht the dark swarm was the zerg version of the bunker. I want it back.

The lurker was the zerg's siege tank... I really want that guy.

Imo, zerg are quite easy to harass with terran and don't really have a lot of harassment units early game bearing in mind that the other 2 races can wall-in.

Muthas are nice, but sometimes they just don't cut it.

Banes are awesome, but sometimes, they just don't cut it.

Ovearll, I think that the economy is what needs work. The economy and scouting. The other races don't have to suicide untis to get it. The toss can make it sneaky. The terran gets it for free and where and when he wants to, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

The race has a lot of things that can be better, it is the least played and supported and is near extincion in every torunament ever... but it is my race.

 

[Monsterous]

Well, like Arkless said, Thors annihilate Mutalisks completely

Wrong when using Magic Box. The splash damage is very small, thus only affects stacked mutas. 18 mutas can kill 6 thors when micro'd effectively.

 

[tom_mai78101]

Finally have news from Blizzard that the patch will come out on 9/23/2010.

 

[Sevion]

3 days!!!

 

[Daskunk]

Finally have news from Blizzard that the patch will come out on 9/23/2010.

I though it was 9/21/1010?

The first feature and balance patch release for StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty will be available next Tuesday, September 21. The maintenance period will begin at 5:00 a.m. and last until approximately 11:00 a.m. PDT. You can read all about our plans for patch 1.1 in the Situation Report.

EDIT: Never-mind, it looks like it depends on your region. For you it probably is the 23rd, but its the 21st for me. Aren't I lucky?

 

[tom_mai78101]

Oh Man!

 

[Cornface]

Wrong when using Magic Box. The splash damage is very small, thus only affects stacked mutas. 18 mutas can kill 6 thors when micro'd effectively.

True, I forgot about the magic box, but that is something that requires slight micro. Plus, I do believe there are more cost effective ways of dealing with thors.

Also, patch coming tomorrow on EU.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/566440828?page=1

 

[Viikuna]

Thors alone, maybe. But when those thors are standing in middle of the terran unit-ball, you dont really have any other option than mutalisk, because its the only one that can really focus fire on them.

 

[Slapshot136]

yesterday I played vs Sevion a bit as terran (he was zerg), and I do have to say, mutalisks are a pain until you get thors (they can fly circles around marines, and missile turrets don't do crap), but the thors are more of a high-range deterrent that prevents them from getting free hits, while the marines then protect the thors

also ghosts are more or less effective, since they can snipe the mutalisks and then cloak if the mutas try getting close

the thing that pissed me off tho is how vikings suck vs mutas - why don't they have splash? aren't they supposed to be the t2 anti-air for terran?