Sci/Tech Copyright Industry Calls For Broad Search Engine Censorship

[tom_mai78101]

At a behind-closed-doors meeting facilitated by the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport, copyright holders have handed out a list of demands to Google, Bing and Yahoo. To curb the growing piracy problem, Hollywood and the major music labels want the search engines to de-list popular filesharing sites such as The Pirate Bay, and give higher ranking to authorized sites.

It’s no secret that the entertainment industries believe search engines are not delivering enough when it comes to protecting copyright works. Just last month, the RIAA and IFPI accused Google of massively profiting from piracy, while putting up barriers to make life difficult for rightsholders.

If the copyright industry had their way, Google and other search engines would no longer link to sites such as The Pirate Bay and isoHunt. In a detailed proposal handed out during a meeting with Google, Yahoo and Bing, various copyright holders made their demands clear.

The document, which describes a government-overlooked “Voluntary Code of Practice” for search engines, was not intended for public consumption but the Open Rights Group obtained it through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request.

Copyright Industry Calls For Broad Search Engine Censorship * TorrentFreak

At a behind-closed-doors meeting facilitated by the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport, copyright holders have handed out a list of demands to Google, Bing and Yahoo. To curb the growing piracy problem, Hollywood and the major music labels want the search engines to de-list popular...

torrentfreak.com

 

[Accname]

I hope the search engines will stand up for our rights to steal stuff.

 

[FireCat]

I hope the search engines will stand up for our rights to steal stuff.

No, It Isn't
Why would it be our rights to steal stuff ? "Internet isn't free and shouldn't give us the right to steal."

 

[Accname]

No, It Isn't
Why would it be our rights to steal stuff ? "Internet isn't free and shouldn't give us the right to steal."

Think of it like this.
A carpenter is manufactoring stuff. All those useful things he makes out of wood or other material for example.
To create those he needs time and he has to buy his materials as well. And it is hard work.
We pay for those goods to compensate for his costs and work.
If you take his goods without paying you are stealing and this really is unfair.

For artists such as musicians for example this is different.
They do not "work hard" since what they do is rather their hobby and not considered work for them. They do it for their own fun and happiness and not to surivive. They do not need to buy materials (other then their instruments maybe or other equipment you might deem necessary.)
For many years those musicians needed record labels. Those corporations would manufacture the disc record or similar media with the musicians art saved on and distribute those.
The label records needed to be paid for their job, they needed material, and they were actually really doing hard work.
If you took a CD with music on you were stealing their material and the hard work put into manufacturing it. (how hard it actually is doesnt matter)

But today this is different.
The internet has changed the way this business works.
The artist doesnt need much equipment anymore. Doesnt need distributors or record labels.
They can buy a cheap web cam, get free software, and upload their work at youtube and sites alike. (Quality is of course another topic, but this is just the basic idea.)

There arent many things the record labels have to pay for today. I guess the only real fees they have to pay is for advertisement.
But times have changed. Record labels arent needed anymore. They are constructs of the past which have lost their privilege to exist, because they are outdated.
Music, Videos, Poetry and most other art isnt material, its just information. The internet is designed to spread information around and thats exactly what those sites like "Pirate Bay" are doing.
You will never be able to steal such things like chairs or tv's, or loaves of bread via the internet.
What we "steal" is nothing but information, in digital form.

But how would you hold back information anyhow?
If you sell your music to one person, how would you make sure he doesnt show it to other for free? Information is unlimited, music, poetry, videos. Thats unlimited. No matter how often they are played, they will not run out.

But the corporations try to force it. Its not going to work i tell you, it doesnt make sense.

OMG, look how much i wrote about this. I should really stop posting in the new forum i guess....

 

[FireCat]

^ One way I do agree but in same time I don't know

What we "steal" is nothing but information, in digital form.

Well, Let's Just rename it to "Sharing Information with Each Other" instead of right to steal stuff
as long as you don't earn money of others work .

OMG, look how much i wrote about this. I should really stop posting in the new forum i guess....

Yeah it's hell a lot lol But NO Way you should stop!

 

[FhelZone]

Wow, they must be insane. Why don't they start their own search engine and realize that search engines are AUTOMATED! It takes a lot of resources to interfere with the automated system. Grrr.. Mindless people just went on a rampage again.

Concerning the piracy, if they were so eager to stop them, then work as hard as the search engines. Target the file sharing sites instead. Good luck for them though, everyday there's a new website out there waiting for its share of the spot light

 

[xPass]

Why are file-sharing sites, search engines, and piracy being the main concern these few days; don't they have better things to do?

"So yeah, I got the real world under my control, it's time for the virtual stuff to be mine too, 'cause it means MONEY; nyehehehehehe..."

 

[Nigerianrulz]

Think of it like this.
A carpenter is manufactoring stuff. All those useful things he makes out of wood or other material for example.
To create those he needs time and he has to buy his materials as well. And it is hard work.
We pay for those goods to compensate for his costs and work.
If you take his goods without paying you are stealing and this really is unfair.

For artists such as musicians for example this is different.
They do not "work hard" since what they do is rather their hobby and not considered work for them. They do it for their own fun and happiness and not to surivive. They do not need to buy materials (other then their instruments maybe or other equipment you might deem necessary.)
For many years those musicians needed record labels. Those corporations would manufacture the disc record or similar media with the musicians art saved on and distribute those.
The label records needed to be paid for their job, they needed material, and they were actually really doing hard work.
If you took a CD with music on you were stealing their material and the hard work put into manufacturing it. (how hard it actually is doesnt matter)

But today this is different.
The internet has changed the way this business works.
The artist doesnt need much equipment anymore. Doesnt need distributors or record labels.
They can buy a cheap web cam, get free software, and upload their work at youtube and sites alike. (Quality is of course another topic, but this is just the basic idea.)

There arent many things the record labels have to pay for today. I guess the only real fees they have to pay is for advertisement.
But times have changed. Record labels arent needed anymore. They are constructs of the past which have lost their privilege to exist, because they are outdated.
Music, Videos, Poetry and most other art isnt material, its just information. The internet is designed to spread information around and thats exactly what those sites like "Pirate Bay" are doing.
You will never be able to steal such things like chairs or tv's, or loaves of bread via the internet.
What we "steal" is nothing but information, in digital form.

But how would you hold back information anyhow?
If you sell your music to one person, how would you make sure he doesnt show it to other for free? Information is unlimited, music, poetry, videos. Thats unlimited. No matter how often they are played, they will not run out.

But the corporations try to force it. Its not going to work i tell you, it doesnt make sense.

OMG, look how much i wrote about this. I should really stop posting in the new forum i guess....

Now as musician myself i agree music itself doesnt need to be charged too much, like albums on itune should really be like 5 - 10 dollars ( if it isnt already coz i dont buy stuff on itunes) physical copies of CD will be out dated in a matter of years from now. To me piracy actually helps the artist coz it spreads his music wider hence all the "distrubition of this information is purely for educational or whatever purpose anti copyrighted stuff".
But all that bullshit about musician not having "hard work"? its just stupid and ill just leave it at that. And labels are still needed as whos going to organise all the advertisements,events, concerts that the artist will attend?
Final thought, music is a form of art. Would you ever steal the painting of mona lisa?
however i do download music so

also film companies do have the right to go against piracy as the main source of revenue for films are from cinemas, i myself try to watch films first unless they are not cinema worthy then pirate bay here i come.

 

[Accname]

Whether you need much advertisement or not is highly questionable in my opinion.
Its easy nowadays to advertise using the internet.
There have been enough cases in which people got famous by using youtube facebook and the likes.

And whether art is "hard work" or not is relative.
If you are an artist i guess you have fun at what you do. You enjoy your music, you enjoy playing music and maybe you enjoy recording it. I dont say making music is hard. It might be, even in my opinion. But i dont think its hard work, its rather a hard hobby.
There are many people who dont enjoy their job, they suffer pain and physical injury because of bad work conditions or just incredibly hard work.
You cannot compare a job like "chinese factory slave" and popstar and tell me thats equally hard work.
And if you now compare how much money both earn in average you will hopefully agree with me that something is unfair.

I think a major problem these days is that people only think in small circles.
The musicians say its unfair if me steal their art through the internet. But they only see it as unfair for western standards. If you start to compare everything, really everything in life with much poorer countries and the poorest of the poor of people on earth you have to realize that your little music pieces being downloaded by some underage kid on the internet doesnt really matter at all. Its a joke.

And of course, stealing the mona-lisa and downloading an exact copy of the image from the internet are different things.
The painting is a real object, its material. Stealing it is in fact a bad thing in my opinion. But spreading pictures through the internet doesnt harm anybody.

 

[Wiseman_2]

If you are an artist i guess you have fun at what you do. You enjoy your music, you enjoy playing music and maybe you enjoy recording it. I dont say making music is hard. It might be, even in my opinion. But i dont think its hard work, its rather a hard hobby.

I'm sure there are lots of people out there who enjoy their job. What about people who develop games? Many of those are hobbyists as well as doing it as a career. Are you trying to tell me that's not hard work? Or are you suggesting it's fine to pirate games?

It's not a broad line you can just draw in the sand. It's a very intricate matter...

 

[Accname]

I'm sure there are lots of people out there who enjoy their job. What about people who develop games? Many of those are hobbyists as well as doing it as a career. Are you trying to tell me that's not hard work? Or are you suggesting it's fine to pirate games?

It's not a broad line you can just draw in the sand. It's a very intricate matter...

I dont think developing games is a hard job compared to like coal miner. Thats a hard job.
Developing games means sitting in a warm and comfortable office, in front of a computer. Having enough to eat any moment. Drinking when you want. All you do is think and bash the keyboard.
Thinking can be hard. Buts its not hard like busting rocks or sewing clothes in india.

Or are you suggesting it's fine to pirate games?

Look how many games are freeware. They dont seem to have too many problems with it.
And just think how many games have been pirated, so many times. Those developers are still in the business.
Software is always a complicated matter. Is it just information? Or is it material?
If i would randomly hit zeroes and ones after each other and i randomly generate the source code of microsoft windows 7 out of it. Is it a crime? Or is it rather that i am the author of that code because i wrote it down myself? Even if it was random?
Those are silly questions but in my opinion they are still hard to discuss.

 

[Nigerianrulz]

Whether you need much advertisement or not is highly questionable in my opinion.
Its easy nowadays to advertise using the internet.
There have been enough cases in which people got famous by using youtube facebook and the likes.

And whether art is "hard work" or not is relative.
If you are an artist i guess you have fun at what you do. You enjoy your music, you enjoy playing music and maybe you enjoy recording it. I dont say making music is hard. It might be, even in my opinion. But i dont think its hard work, its rather a hard hobby.
There are many people who dont enjoy their job, they suffer pain and physical injury because of bad work conditions or just incredibly hard work.
You cannot compare a job like "chinese factory slave" and popstar and tell me thats equally hard work.
And if you now compare how much money both earn in average you will hopefully agree with me that something is unfair.

I think a major problem these days is that people only think in small circles.
The musicians say its unfair if me steal their art through the internet. But they only see it as unfair for western standards. If you start to compare everything, really everything in life with much poorer countries and the poorest of the poor of people on earth you have to realize that your little music pieces being downloaded by some underage kid on the internet doesnt really matter at all. Its a joke.

And of course, stealing the mona-lisa and downloading an exact copy of the image from the internet are different things.
The painting is a real object, its material. Stealing it is in fact a bad thing in my opinion. But spreading pictures through the internet doesnt harm anybody.

first of all i'm chinese and i would know first hand what "hard work" is as im currently in china for my holidays, so i would know much more than you, i dare say what the poor have to do to earn a living cause i grew up there before leaving overseas. Im not neglecting the hardwork many developing countries citizens have to endure to survive but thats just facts of life, thats why asian parents always make their children study hard cause they all came from poor backgrounds and all wants to escape out of such life. But to neglect the hard work artists and other entertainers put into their work is not fair to me, sure to me some ppl like justin bieber or stars that get their attention due to their looks or whatever is total bullshit. But to neglect the hard work they put into their tours and all the events etc... is not fair, so the job might be less physical or better conditions but its nevertheless work.

i dont believe i have seen many artist critizing about piracy, cause as i said previously and you too the internet helps spread their music which ends up with them having more fans etc... if my 'little music pieces' were downloaded on the internet i would be happy tbh.

 

[Zakyath]

We have a serious problem today. People can't separate what belongs to them from what belongs to others.

If someone creates something, it's not yours. If you create something, it's not theirs. If you buy a copy from them, you have the right to take part of the fruits of their labour. If you don't, you can do the job yourself and record your own movie, song or whatever.

People today want everything for free. Especially young people today, I downloaded my first song when I was about six or seven years old. I was brought up with it, and it was a natural part of my life. So it's not odd if I would carry on this habit.

But I have said no, because it isn't right. Just because the possibility is there to sneak into the movies, it is not okay. Just because the guard at the yankee stadium is looking the other way, doesn't mean you can run in without paying a ticket, and watch the game.

Do you know what the definition of a parasite is? "a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others."

I am not a parasite. And therefore I won't act as one. Are you a parasite? Is that the way you want to live and be perceived by others?

 

[Wiseman_2]

I dont think developing games is a hard job compared to like coal miner. Thats a hard job.
Developing games means sitting in a warm and comfortable office, in front of a computer. Having enough to eat any moment. Drinking when you want. All you do is think and bash the keyboard.
Thinking can be hard. Buts its not hard like busting rocks or sewing clothes in india.

One is tough physically, the other is tough mentally. By your reckoning, I shouldn't be allowed to steal a lump of coal (which the miner probably took a mere few minutes to hammer from the rock) but I should be allowed to steal what might've taken a collective group of people maybe two years to make?

 

[Accname]

[...]
But to neglect the hard work they put into their tours and all the events etc... is not fair, so the job might be less physical or better conditions but its nevertheless work.
[...]

I would find it quite ammusing if you would go to somebody with a hard physical job and tell them what you do for a living as a musician. Playing an instrument, touring, playing at concerts, recording songs.
And compare your income with theirs and tell them you have a hard job.

Dont understand me wrong, i respect artists, i am a musician myself if i may call me that. I am a developer myself, or at least i wish i would be. I am taking much time to work on my projects, i invest money into software and i always try to improve its quality.
But in my opinion it is nothing compared to what others have to suffer for that little money they get.
You can tell me you are hard working and i believe you that you put alot of effort into your job, but i will never believe you that for the same amount of money you work as a musician as hard as you would in all those bad paid physically exhausting jobs.

@Zakyath:
The question is if it in fact is stealing if you download a song.
You just have to not thing of the data you download as a song or a movie. Thats not what you do. You never downloaded music. You never downloaded a video. You never did nor will you ever do.
Thats just a definition we force upon those data.
The computer doesnt know what a song is, or a video. The computer doesnt care what that stuff is.
All your computer has got is numbers. Its a number and nothing but.
You think it is a video or a song because you want to believe that it is but in fact its not.
Its a gigantic number, a number so big we probably dont even have a name for it.

And then you have your display and your speakers. They make that number to become a song or a video or a video with sound or whatever. They are what connects you, as a human, to that data in a way you can comprehend.

What i have on my harddrive are only numbers. Big numbers. in fact, i guess if i would look at those numbers my eyes would start bleeding so damn big are they.
Do you thing you can put a copyright to a number? Would you say it should be forbidden to show that number in public? Or to print that big big number on a piece of paper? Can that be illegal?
And what if i convert that number, using a printer or a display, into colors. Colors in a certain pattern making a banner out of it.
Would it be forbidden to wave that banner because the information encoded in the colors would represent the newest hollywood movie if played by a display?

People have to realize once they digitalize any kind of art. Is it movies, music or whatever. Once they do this they share their work with the whole world because they make their art become a number. Nothing but a number.
And numbers are free. There is no copyright on numbers and you cannot put a trade mark on it.
If i would count upwards would i need to stop at some point because that number is trademarked? Because i would go to jail when i say it out loud?
Thats ridiculous.

One is tough physically, the other is tough mentally. By your reckoning, I shouldn't be allowed to steal a lump of coal (which the miner probably took a mere few minutes to hammer from the rock) but I should be allowed to steal what might've taken a collective group of people maybe two years to make?

if you take that lump of coal from the miner he wouldnt have it anymore.
if i take a line of code from a developer he still got the line of code by himself. He can still sell his programm and he can still give it to others.
For the miner the lump is gone.
The developer will just laugh at you if you tell him you took one line of his code without paying for it.
because a lump of coal got a value, even if its only little. A bunch of letters doesnt unless you give it one yourself.

 

[FireCat]

but I should be allowed to steal

That Just doesn't sound right.

 

[Zakyath]

accname:

I never said it was stealing.

And your number argument is just weird. The lumber doesn't know that it is a part of a house. So therefore I am allowed to live in it, even though it's not mine. Wait, what?

Let me put it this way instead.

We have a great system today. When you work, you get paid for your work. And when you need things you can use this money to pay others for the products of their work. This is working fine. But there's two ways to get around this. The first is stealing. The second is illegal filesharing.

Both of those disturb the free market. If you don't like a product you should either create your own product, buy someone else's product, or not buy it at all. If you do this right, the invisible hand will continue steering the market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand), and if customers are not satisfied, the market will respond. But if you use the products, but won't pay for them, that means there will be an imbalance in the market. The invisible hand can no longer steer the market, and the market will degenerate.

And now it may seem silly to make rules about it, but some hundred years ago people probably thought it was weird to make rules against stealing too. Because how can you own land? How can you own animals? How can you own things that come from mother earth? Ownership is made up by man, and you have to realise that to understand that copyright laws aren't really that weird. This whole internet thing is strange for all of us, but it can't be a haven for criminals, we can't let it damage the real world, and for god sake think of the art. What if no one paid artists, if we all decided that art was free. There would be no professional artists. Art would be dead. And how much fun would that be?

 

[Accname]

I dont think we are talking about the same topic here. We both have arguments but neither of which has something to do right now with the other.

I know very well how markets work. But as a matter of fact, that system is outdated and doesnt work anymore in the 21th century. As time goes on and technology advances the laws need to catch up.
They are trying, but there is always the possibility to choose the wrong path.
What path is right is hard to tell, and it is the task of the politicians to find it. But i can clearly say that the current path is wrong from my point of view.

What you summed up so nicely about "working, getting paid, buying things, market bla bla bla" might work great for many industries. But i am sure it doesnt anymore for artists in the 21th century.

Just think about it, an artist doesnt sell anything. He isnt producing anything. He is inventing but not creating.
Music has always been there, all the notes, all the soundwaves. They are present any time.
He is just the genious who found the melody and managed to play it.
Nothing new is created, but something which people like has been found.

He cant sell his music. It isnt possible. If he plays it only once the people will remember the melody, the lyrics, and what else is there. They can then play the song themselfs with a little bit of talent. They dont really need him anymore.

Is this sad to you? it would be in my opinion but there is a little bit more to human society. They do not act rationally. Although they might be able to play the song themselfs, they might know the melody and the lyrics they still like to listen to the original artist.
Furthermore, they donate to him, they buy fan articles, posters, albums, remixes, and all that stuff. They go to concerts. They enjoy being a fan of this person because they respect him. For what he did, for his art and talent. They pay him respect and because of this respect they give him money, in form of donations.
That happens plenty of times with the non-mainstream artists on the internet.

What todays record-labels are after however is stuff like justin bieber and the likes. Lot of advertisement, no innovations, simple music with little quality. (please mind, this is a subjective comment, dont feel hurt if you like his music please but understand that i dont)
People do not respect this kid and download music without paying for it because they arent really interested in the artist but only want distraction from their daily life.

What do you think? If the suddenly another song by the beetles would come out, although impossible lets just imagine.
Would the people buy the album or would they download it for free?
I bet many would buy it. They want to have it, want something to hold in their hands, something from their beloved artists. They might even buy the album and download the song to play it from their computer or cell phones.

At least i think this way, i believe this is true. The record labels wouldnt be facing so much illegal downloads if the people would respect their work. And their artists. People are always willing to donate if they like something. They donate to this forum server here, or to the hiveworkshop were they create wc3 models. Such a silly thing but they donate real money to it.
And i bet they would donate for music as well if it would be free, the artist is talented and they like and respect him.

 

[Slapshot136]

just wondering if anyone can find numbers related to the RIAA and MPAA regarding their income, profits, amount spend on advertisement, amount spent on layers/lawsuits, and revenue from lawsuits (I can't seem to find anything), but it would be interesting to see those numbers

 

[MasterOfABCs]

To imply that artists do not successfully work, get paid or buy things is absolute madness.