Creationism vs. Evolution

Dan

The New Helper.Net gives me great Anxiety... o.O;;
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In my opinion, and from what I consider to be a logical standpoint, an afterlife does not exist.

Firstly, consider any major religion. They were all devised hundreds upon hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago, when life was many times more difficult and just as much less sure. People didn't know if they'd be able to feed their children through the winter, or be able to clothe them and keep them warm. They didn't know if they were going to live through the month, many times. Famine, illness, and disaster were far more damaging, far more destructive, to the point that these people needed something.
They needed hope.

That's where the evolution of religion began - out of the fear of death, and the creeping dread that it was just around the corner. Now, we don't have to worry about those sorts of things; sure, we still need to worry about murder, or accidents, but those are things that people of old also had to cope with, among many others. Because of this, as well as the fact that there are already established religions and that the average level of education is vastly increased, no new religions will ever rise to the same ranks as Christianity, Hinduism or Islam. But I guess that's all beside the point.

I realized one day, standing there and thinking about it, that belief in that afterlife is illogical. The afterlife is a concept devised by the human mind as a defense mechanism. The idea of death, when actually, truly confronted, is so terrifying that we need a way to cope with the idea. That method of coping is an idea of the afterlife, which exists in some form in every religion.

It's in every religion because that's what religion is for - to convince your mind of a lie, the lie that death is not truly the end. It may seem like a bleak way to view things, but psychologically speaking, it makes a lot more sense. At least to me, I know we all view the world a little differently.

I'm not even arguing the existence of a God-like being, although the question is mind-boggling: where did it all come from? Was it created by some God? And if it was, who created said God? And then where did God's creator come from? And where did his creator, and his creator, and his creator come from? At what point did existence itself come into being? Considering this question, just saying, 'God' seems like the lazy man's answer. But for all I know, a God could exist.

And it's not like I have proof that the afterlife doesn't exist, it's just that, considering the way that the human mind works, it seems far too unlikely a thing to be possible.

No matter what, before worshiping God or Gods or anything else, the most important thing to focus on in life is to work toward the betterment of those you care about, your friends and family that make your life, your life. Without these people, life holds no true meaning, no purpose. It's shallow and bland and wasteful. Love those who love you, and if you can spare, love the rest.

I'm not religious, but the ideals of Jesus Christ are excellent. If a man asks for your money, you give him your shirt and your shoes, too (I'm sure that's not really how it goes, but I know it's something along those lines). Only through practicing these sorts of generous, selfless gestures can we, as a people, work against this tide of corruption that has seemingly swallowed us whole. Because at the rate we're going, we're just going to end up destroying ourselves. And with no afterlife, guess what?

We're all fucked.

Finally someone with a viewpoint that is opposing to my own and yet reasonably stated. I respect your opinion greatly!

Some points I would like to make: First of all, most would agree that if any religion is correct, then only one could be--though, there are some people who believe that several could be true. Based on this, it would stand to reason and logic that other religions would hijack principles from the one true religion, bend it different directions, and build on it for their own purposes. I believe that Christianity is the one true religion, and that others share some ideas from it, but with big differences. If this is true, then it would make a lot of sense why a ton of religions were made long ago and share a lot of ideas.

Another point to be made is that new religions have been made in recent times. Mormonism, for example is extremely new and one of the most rapidly growing religions on earth as far as I know. There are also numerous sects and branches of religion that all have the same roots and all use the Bible as their source of knowledge.

I would also like to point out that we still suffer and die just as we have for thousands of years. We have longer lives now, but still pretty torturous ones. Fear of death is one thing, but it is also seems to be unimaginable to not exist. There has never been a day that has gone by that either of us has not had a memory of the day before or a few moments ago, let alone not being able to experience the present time. It is true that some people lose their memories and that some people have different brain malfunctions that disallow them to recall times in the past, but surely they are experiencing the present at any moment in time.

It stands to reason and logic again that we would wonder what life after death is and what it would be like. It stands to reason and logic that we would think about the idea of being self aware. These are timeless ideas.

I agree that God is a lazy answer to the beginning of time. I agree that heaven is a lazy answer to what happens after you die. That doesn't equate to them being automatically incorrect assumptions, though. Sometimes things are exactly as they seem and sometimes they are not. Sometimes we need to go to the limits of human knowledge to understand something, and sometimes the answer is written in a book and all we need to do is pick it up and read it.

Lastly, Christianity is truly a beautiful vision of peace on earth. It is completely selfless. You are to love your neighbor as you love yourself. That doesn't mean you are required to love everything your neighbor does (no one even loves everything they do themselves) but it does mean that you should treat them with respect, pity, and remorse. You say that before you should worship God, you should be able to help those around you, but Christianity is about helping those around you. Worshiping God doesn't mean that you are in your room praying all day. Worship can be done by helping others, being patient and loving when you are tempted by anger, etc. The Bible gives a very clear vision of how to live a good life and worship God in doing so. Some of the happiest people I know are Christians who are devoted to family, friends, and church.

Again some of that is not argumentative, but I'm glad to be able to share what I know in an attempt at understanding one another. I respect that a lot of people don't believe in Christianity and that many don't believe in the existence of God, but it helps to share with each other so that we can understand one another's points of view. Neither of us should ever be angry with each other. Mostly, I just want the assumption that belief in God is irrational and illogical to be put to death. I am a lot of things, but I wouldn't call myself irrational or illogical.
 

Fatmankev

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Some points I would like to make: First of all, most would agree that if any religion is correct, then only one could be--though, there are some people who believe that several could be true. Based on this, it would stand to reason and logic that other religions would hijack principles from the one true religion, bend it different directions, and build on it for their own purposes. I believe that Christianity is the one true religion, and that others share some ideas from it, but with big differences. If this is true, then it would make a lot of sense why a ton of religions were made long ago and share a lot of ideas.

I'm having a problem with this. I agree, it would stand to reason that other religions would hijack principles from the 'one true religion.' But if Christianity shares the same principles as countless other religions that came before it, then isn't it hijacking their ideals? Or maybe I misunderstood, now that I'm re-reading it... Are you saying it does take some of older religions principles, but it's the only one that's right anyways? Sorry, not sure I get this part.

Another point to be made is that new religions have been made in recent times. Mormonism, for example is extremely new and one of the most rapidly growing religions on earth as far as I know. There are also numerous sects and branches of religion that all have the same roots and all use the Bible as their source of knowledge.

I agree that my point may have been off, but I disagree with your example. Mormonism, although considered a separate religion, is just another branch of Christianity. They worship the same God and Jesus Christ, they just view the world a little differently. No different than Catholicism and Lutheranism and Presbyterianism, not in my book, anyway. But that's all more a matter of opinion, I guess when it comes down to it. The point is that even though they're very well known (mostly because they're ridiculous, even as far as religions go), there are still far fewer people that practice these faiths, and that trend is destined to continue. Atheism, and especially Agnosticism (which is the jurisdiction I fall under, for the record), is bound to spread more fervently than any religion in our day and age, especially if it follows its current trend. In my eyes, this is mostly because, for the most part, people no longer address the real, existential questions about life. They have so many other things to preoccupy their minds in this day and age that to actually sit down and ponder these issues in a philosophical sense can seem like more trouble than it's worth. Especially when they could be playing Xbox.

I would also like to point out that we still suffer and die just as we have for thousands of years. We have longer lives now, but still pretty torturous ones. Fear of death is one thing, but it is also seems to be unimaginable to not exist. There has never been a day that has gone by that either of us has not had a memory of the day before or a few moments ago, let alone not being able to experience the present time. It is true that some people lose their memories and that some people have different brain malfunctions that disallow them to recall times in the past, but surely they are experiencing the present at any moment in time.

It stands to reason and logic again that we would wonder what life after death is and what it would be like. It stands to reason and logic that we would think about the idea of being self aware. These are timeless ideas.

Fair points, although you seemed to lose your train of thought toward the end of the first paragraph. Wasn't quite sure what you were getting at. Care to elaborate?

I agree that God is a lazy answer to the beginning of time. I agree that heaven is a lazy answer to what happens after you die. That doesn't equate to them being automatically incorrect assumptions, though. Sometimes things are exactly as they seem and sometimes they are not. Sometimes we need to go to the limits of human knowledge to understand something, and sometimes the answer is written in a book and all we need to do is pick it up and read it.

Very well said. I agree with this topic 100%. You're right, they're not automatically wrong. Still, you have to realize that they're not automatically right, either. But I guess that's where 'faith' comes into the picture.

Lastly, Christianity is truly a beautiful vision of peace on earth. It is completely selfless. You are to love your neighbor as you love yourself. That doesn't mean you are required to love everything your neighbor does (no one even loves everything they do themselves) but it does mean that you should treat them with respect, pity, and remorse. You say that before you should worship God, you should be able to help those around you, but Christianity is about helping those around you. Worshiping God doesn't mean that you are in your room praying all day. Worship can be done by helping others, being patient and loving when you are tempted by anger, etc. The Bible gives a very clear vision of how to live a good life and worship God in doing so. Some of the happiest people I know are Christians who are devoted to family, friends, and church.

Alright, so my main point was that you need to work toward improving the lives of those you love. Helping everyone else is the afterthought, which is what you're claiming Christianity is all about, and what I agree it basically should be all about. But if you're helping your friends and family to worship the Lord, then you're doing it for the wrong reason. You help them to help them, because your love for them makes you want to make their lives better. They should be the forethought. They're there. Physically, undeniably there. If you could be certain that God existed, could know it for 100% fact, then it might be different. But you can't know for sure, there's no way to know for sure. But you sure know that your family is there. They need to come first. If God does exist, I think he'll understand (or Jesus will, anyway... God seems pretty spiteful, especially for a 'perfect' being... which is also why I can't understand how God and Jesus are the same thing, when their personalities are so different?).

Again some of that is not argumentative, but I'm glad to be able to share what I know in an attempt at understanding one another. I respect that a lot of people don't believe in Christianity and that many don't believe in the existence of God, but it helps to share with each other so that we can understand one another's points of view. Neither of us should ever be angry with each other. Mostly, I just want the assumption that belief in God is irrational and illogical to be put to death. I am a lot of things, but I wouldn't call myself irrational or illogical.

Also very well said. If it helps, I would certainly not say that the belief in God is irrational, whether it's based in science or not. We don't have the knowledge to even appropriately theorize what started it all, and what could and couldn't exist. Every day, mankind is finding answers to questions they once thought unanswerable, to build and create things that in a past time would be unfathomable. We can't know for sure that something doesn't exist, just as well as we can't know that it does.

However, what I do find illogical is the total and unquestionable belief in a deity that can't be witnessed. There's no way to argue that it could be true without also realizing that it might be false. Same goes for Atheists. You can't argue that God doesn't exist without any proof to the contrary. You have to accept that, even if you don't believe it, it could be possible. And even if you do believe it, it might not be the truth. How'd they put it in The Boondocks? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Stick that bitch in your noodle, Atheists.
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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There is any way one thing we can be sure of the "bible wasn't created of god" And evolution during the Genesis Creation does not stand up to science or the Bible. So many Christians have been sold" the lie of evolution" that they feel they must accept itas truth or else they are somehow denying science..

Hmm What was God doing before he created the world? And who created the god? lol
 

Fatmankev

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There is any way one thing we can be sure of the "bible wasn't created of god" And evolution during the Genesis Creation does not stand up to science or the Bible. So many Christians have been sold" the lie of evolution" that they feel they must accept itas truth or else they are somehow denying science..

Hmm What was God doing before he created the world? And who created the god? lol

So you don't believe in evolution? Care to explain an alternative theory?
 

Fatmankev

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I might do it, if I get an answer on this. I think that's pretty fair :cool:

I never pretended to know an answer to that question. In fact, I asked that very same question, and went further with it, so I don't know why you're asking me a question I already asked.

However, you seem to suggest you know of proof as to evolution's falsity. Care to share?
 

FireCat

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In fact, I asked that very same question, and went further with it, so I don't know why you're asking me a question I already asked.
I didn't said you need to answer it. hehe But maybe someone else hmm?
 

Slapshot136

Divide et impera
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I can't prove anything; but neither can you.

that may be as of now, but religion has settled on an "answer" (such as the bible is always right), uses the bible as proof, and it's followers have stopped searching and thinking about what other possibilities exist - science hasn't been able to prove that the universe was created in a big bang, but I would say that it has proven other things so far such as the earth orbiting around the sun, evolution, etc. and it may eventually be able to prove how the universe was created as well

and it's that non-changing, give-up approach that is what I think is wrong with religion - teaching to be kind and respect people is great if that was all that it did, but I don't see that as being too successful unfortunately, due to it being founded on fear (be nice or you go to hell, do this or you go to hell, do this and you won't go to hell, etc.)
 

FireCat

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One moar thing: If god created "Adam And Eve" How can human been evolved from apes In the same time ?
And other way around? Well, Apes and humans evolved from an unknown ancestor and still it is.
But it doesn't mean it's god or apes who evolved us.
Seriously, It's quite easy to make a story. And what about Noah's Ark eh?
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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that may be as of now, but religion has settled on an "answer" (such as the bible is always right), uses the bible as proof, and it's followers have stopped searching and thinking about what other possibilities exist - science hasn't been able to prove that the universe was created in a big bang, but I would say that it has proven other things so far such as the earth orbiting around the sun, evolution, etc. and it may eventually be able to prove how the universe was created as well

Not really. Religion and science needn't be at odds; almost all of the Bible can be explained in a way that matches along with the accepted scientific theories of the Earth and universe's origins. There are plenty of physicists that are still hardcore Catholic or LDS or Islam or something.
 

Siretu

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Wasn't this discussion going to not be a religious discussion, but rather a discussion about creationism vs evolution? As camelCase said, a religious discussion rarely ends well and it makes people bitter.

On the topic of religion, I've been semi-religious up until recently. What I realized is that, as was mentioned before, we can't prove or disprove the existence of a God. Does it matter?

I don't know if God exist. I don't care. I understand that most modern religions try to spread a message of peace and love to some degree, and I respect that. However, I can be a good person anyway. While I understand that the belief in a God can make it easier for some people to get through their lives, I don't have that problem. My problems are small and insignificant and I don't need a God to help me through them. I'm a happy person with or without a God.

For me, it doesn't matter.

While some atheists try to convince believers of how silly religion is because they find religion to be stupid, it is the wrong thing to do. Most atheists dislikes when religious people try to convert them, saying that you're not supposed to push your beliefs on someone else. I feel like trying to argue with a religious person can be the same thing. Don't push your disbelief on others if you don't want them to push your belief on you.
 

Fatmankev

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While some atheists try to convince believers of how silly religion is because they find religion to be stupid, it is the wrong thing to do. Most atheists dislikes when religious people try to convert them, saying that you're not supposed to push your beliefs on someone else. I feel like trying to argue with a religious person can be the same thing. Don't push your disbelief on others if you don't want them to push your belief on you.

Good perspective, and I agree. It's just as bad the other way around.
 

BlowingKush

I hit the blunt but the blunt hit me.
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Let me sum up this debate in 1 post.
Fatmankev, your gonna love this. I bet Ninva will too.
This is why I love Nova.

 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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Holy crap. Well, this is an interesting video but at the same time, hilarious!
 
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