Creationism vs. Evolution

[FireCat]

"The gun kills, But your hand fired the gun"And people kill other people! Isn't it true?

but if they do it in the name of God, it is definitely not because it is written to do so..

I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

It Just scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible

Spoiler

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

And there's a hell of a lot More . The Bible is full of lies! Just saying.

Anyway.. If you believe in any religion, that's fine, But push their religion on ya. That's a big no!

 

[Dan]

I'm going to ignore Firecat because he cusses in posts and reads things out of context. The stuff you quoted is ALL out of context. Murder, rape, etc are strictly taught against by Christians. The stuff you quoted is from the old testiment, and also out of context. I don't expect you to understand. Please stop trolling this thread by derailing it and saying ignorant things. Ask questions, try to understand others, but don't just throw crazy stuff up in someone's face and expect to be praised for winning an argument that can't be won.

It is important to note that this thread is about creationism vs evolution, and that in this case: understanding is all we can have a discussion about. Neither can be shown as true or false at the moment, which is why we are trying to have a calm and peaceful discussion, and why Firecat is out of line.

As for Nigerianrulz:

Thats a vague comparison, books in history does not date back as far as the bible did, atleast not to my knowledge. I don't single out the possibilities that there is a single intelligent entity that rules the universe but i object to those who must rule out science and all of its possibilities because they believe God is everything. We used to think the Earth was flat... everyone believed it to be, does it means its true?

I never stated that science was in conflict with religion. The entire POINT of my arguments are that they are not in conflict. Please go over the thread once more and read more carefully what I have already said. The point is that science is not a religion. science is the act of observing what we see and making hypothesis. You then try to disprove your hypothesis by collecting data. If a hypothesis cannot be disproven, it becomes a theory. Science is used to prove or disprove theories. I love science! The catch is that I believe that everything in the natural world (which can be scientifically studied) was made the way it is by God.

I'm cool if you believe in God but once you start making claims to that God cannot be disproved or it must be the answer is when i will frown and disagree upon.

1. God cannot be disproved. This is a fact. God cannot be proved. Another fact. It is true that the burden of proof is on anyone who believes in God, but you cannot say without a doubt that there is no God. You may believe it to be true, but that is your opinion; just as it would be mine that he does exist.

2. "must be the answer" was my opinion. To me, God must be the answer. I am very careful with my language and I expect anyone who reads what I have to say to be very careful about interpreting it the way I meant it. I don't believe I make it difficult by any means to understand what I say. "I am responsible for what I say, not what you think I say."

Scientific method involves digging and surveying and testing historical remains, which helps in proving a lot of historical claims, which is how we found dinosaurs so... Basically you're saying if i picked up Aladin and believe that genies existed it would?

We didn't find dinosaur bones by using the scientific method... No one dreamed up dinosaurs and then looked for evidence to support the idea of their existence. They found evidence/bones first and then went from there. You are confusing cause and effect. You are right to say that you need to prove historical claims. You can look in the Bible and see that it's historical claims are accurate as far as anyone can tell. What you cannot do is make historical claims based on scientific method. It is historical claims, as well as the need for an explanation of the origin of the universe and why it must exist that we come to the hypothesis that God exists. Try as you may, it is impossible to disprove God simply because of the fact that if he exists, then everything we see exists because of him. Studying what we see at that point wouldn't prove or disprove his existence. What we see would then be a consequence of his existence.

before i exit with this long post, you didn't answer my question about where did God come from and what about other religion? It seems like science/religion are always science/Christianity.

We are discussing the possibility of God at all... It is enough for this argument, that we stick to his existence or not. God is an answer to the problem of infinite eternity in the negative direction. The answer would have to be that God always existed and always will. You can't expect me to say much more on that...

About other religions... Well since this article is about creationism, which corresponds to God creating humanity, it is kind of obvious that we are speaking about the Judo-Christian God. It is also true that I cannot stand up and defend all religions based on two facts: It is impossible to believe in several opposing things, and I cannot speak on what I don't know. These statements are true based on definition.

To wrap this one up, I am not arguing anything that can be proven or disproven. I am simply arguing the fact that you cannot tell me that "science proves God doesn't exist" or "Science proves that creationism cannot be possible." I am also not attacking anyone on this thread. I am very happy to have conversation with you guys!

I want people to realize that some arguments are not so one sided that "the other guy must be a total idiot to believe in ....." I believe in God and creationism but that doesn't mean that atheists are illogical and have no ground to stand on... it just means that we see things differently. The misconception is that science proves atheists correct while disproving religion. This is a fallacy, as science is the middle ground. Both of us use it. There is more stake on my side, I will admit. If the Bible were to be proven to be a hoax, then I would have no argument as far as Christianity is concerned. The idea of God; however, is still a theory that can never be disproven.

 

[FireCat]

Not at all @Dan What I did quite it did happen and still happens in a way.
Seriously, some still follow the Old Testament. Bible (Old Testament) or whatever you want to call it.
So what are you afraid of? To lose your belief or what?

And evolution doesn’t have anything to do with God, nor does the big bang. And Creationism isn't a theory, it's religious propaganda. Nuff said.

 

[KaerfNomekop]

Anyway.. If you believe in any religion, that's fine, But push their religion on ya. That's a big no!

Exactly. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, just don't force them onto other people.


As for the killing, nothing kills but life.

before i exit with this long post, you didn't answer my question about where did God come from and what about other religion? It seems like science/religion are always science/Christianity.

God is the metaphysical embodiment of our origin, if I've been following Dan so far.

Science/Christianity because that's the religion that most famously opposed Science, probably because it had more dominative believers. Other religions tend to preach love for everything, even those who hate you.

On the fence, I think that's a good philosophy.

 

[Dan]

Not at all @Dan What I did quite it did happen and still happens in a way.
Seriously, some still follow the Old Testament. Bible (Old Testament) or whatever you want to call it.
So what are you afraid of? To lose your belief or what?

And evolution doesn’t have anything to do with God, nor does the big bang. And Creationism isn't a theory, it's religious propaganda. Nuff said.

You shouldn't say whatever you want as if it were a fact and make it more true. That's not how conversations work and it is not how arguments work. You are entitled to be ignorant Firecat, but please don't just throw insulting posts out after someone takes time and effort in explaining what they believe and how things are not as simple as you would like for them to be. You would go a long way in using phrases like "I believe" before making statements. I really do wonder if you read the posts in a thread before posting yourself...

If you would like to have a conversation about the Old testament sometime we can do that. Out of context the Bible can be quite confusing. I find you to be quite confusing even in context, so life is truly a puzzle isn't it?

Exactly. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, just don't force them onto other people.


As for the killing, nothing kills but life.


God is the metaphysical embodiment of our origin, if I've been following Dan so far.

Science/Christianity because that's the religion that most famously opposed Science, probably because it had more dominative believers. Other religions tend to preach love for everything, even those who hate you.

On the fence, I think that's a good philosophy.

There was a time when the Catholic church had political power in Europe and rejected any scientific studies because they were affraid. That time has long past, and As I said above, science does not oppose religion. The two are completely different realms. Science is the study of what we see. Religion is philosophy about why we see what we see.

 

[Slapshot136]

there has been quite a bit of research done on the bible, and it was written by humans (and several different authors nonetheless) - so how exactly is that supposed to "prove" that the Christian god exists? as opposed to say the Greek gods that are "proven" by Homer's novels (Odyssey and Iliad)?

as for the gun/person shooting, both are required to kill a person in that scenario, but mostly the person, because without the gun, a person (with the intent to kill) has other means of killing another, the gun just makes it easier - but without the person, it is next to impossible for the gun to kill a person unless it misfires, and even then that would be an accident, not an intentional killing

therefore it is not religion that kills people, but it does make it easier and influences people to do so by helping to remove their guilt (confession, "righteous killing", etc.) - despite most religions preaching peace, they do on average create more war/killing then what would exist in the absence of religion

religious countries/cities have higher murder rates than less religious countries/cities

(and here is a link to a study)

 

[Dan]

there has been quite a bit of research done on the bible, and it was written by humans (and several different authors nonetheless) - so how exactly is that supposed to "prove" that the Christian god exists? as opposed to say the Greek gods that are "proven" by Homer's novels (Odyssey and Iliad)?

as for the gun/person shooting, both are required to kill a person in that scenario, but mostly the person, because without the gun, a person (with the intent to kill) has other means of killing another, the gun just makes it easier - but without the person, it is next to impossible for the gun to kill a person unless it misfires, and even then that would be an accident, not an intentional killing

therefore it is not religion that kills people, but it does make it easier and influences people to do so by helping to remove their guilt (confession, "righteous killing", etc.) - despite most religions preaching peace, they do on average create more war/killing then what would exist in the absence of religion

religious countries/cities have higher murder rates than less religious countries/cities

(and here is a link to a study)

Well this has sure gotten off topic. Everything you asked has been answered above already. If you read what I have already stated, then you would realize that your comment about Homer's works is irrelevant to the argument and also besides the point.

Thank you for the study about religion, but again, sort of irrelevant. People like to yell "religion is horrible and gets people killed" but what good is it to say that? Human beings like to ask big questions and form beliefs. We are programmed to have faith just as we are programmed to use scientific reasoning and study mathematical ideas and invent engineering methods. It may seem illogical to you but, as this article points out, more than half of Americans believe in creationism. When it comes down to it, people have beliefs and they are entitled to them; there is nothing wrong with that.

Also, as I have pointed out several times, there are many very good arguments to be made for these beliefs. The debates have been made a million times, I don't know what good it really is to argue, other than prove that people who believe in creationism shouldn't be immediately put into a category of "irrational" or "illogical." If I can convince people that there is logic behind religious thought, then I have done exactly as I have set out to do. I have no inclination to persuade anyone to pick up my beliefs; I only mean to show that it is wrong to look down on people of faith, just as it would be wrong to look down on atheists as a Christian.

The world needs more understanding.

 

[Dan]

I wanted to remind everyone that this thread started here: http://www.thehelper.net/threads/mo...-to-accept-creationism-than-evolution.155677/

If you just came here, start here before posting so that you understand the context of this "debate."

 

[Slapshot136]

Murder, rape, etc are strictly taught against by Christians

Thank you for the study about religion, but again, sort of irrelevant. People like to yell "religion is horrible and gets people killed" but what good is it to say that?

saying it like you said, is indeed worthless - but by backing it up with a scientific study, I am adding weight to it - and I thought it was relevant, since it seems that the "peace" is a false cover, if it creates more torture/murder then what there would be in the absence of religion.

religion does oppose science - science is based on skepticism, and religion is based on faith. - those are 2 opposite ends of a spectrum - like you said earlier, most scientific theories are indeed theories that take some faith in the scientists themselves to not be bribed by officials, that they did the research properly, etc. - but they are still founded by logical studies, as opposed to religion, which is only very loosely founded in logic (things exist, let's explain them) - that's about where the logic ends in religion as I see it

When it comes down to it, people have beliefs and they are entitled to them; there is nothing wrong with that.

Also, as I have pointed out several times, there are many very good arguments to be made for these beliefs. The debates have been made a million times, I don't know what good it really is to argue, other than prove that people who believe in creationism shouldn't be immediately put into a category of "irrational" or "illogical."

and forgive me if this has been explained previously, but what good (read: rational and logical) arguments are there for the belief that the universe was created by a all-powerful entity?

 

[KaerfNomekop]

That we currently have no idea of the true origins of the universe, only theories, surely warrants a doubt and subsequent beliefs. Many of which developed into religions.

 

[Slapshot136]

That we currently have no idea of the true origins of the universe, only theories, surely warrants a doubt and subsequent beliefs. Many of which developed into religions.

OK, so there is a lack of knowledge about the start of the universe - what evidence is there of an omnipotent being? especially of one that has the same shape as a human? - and this question remains, why the Christian religion as opposed to others? why only 1 god? why omnipotent?

as far as life, I know that there is some method for creating organic matter from inorganic matter using basic substances, just not alive, but given random chance and billions of years it's not impossible

 

[KaerfNomekop]

Why English?

 

[Slapshot136]

Why English?

why English what? why do we use English here on this forum? because the majority of people here know English, any other language would be hard to communicate in, but it's mostly irrelevant, we could change to Chinese or something, most people would need a couple of years to learn it, and we could move on - no big deal, because the languages are more or less equivalent forms of communication - are you making the comment that religions are all more or less the same thing? or even broader, whether it be religion or science that explains the creation, it's the same thing?

why the "god created it"? the big bang theory explains itself by observing how the universe is expanding from a point - it's possible that an big bang could cause the galaxies to move as they do - while the bible doesn't even account for species that existed before humans, like say dinosaurs - which lived on the earth for millions of years before humans were created

evolution is even more so well-documented - something that cannot be said about religion, so why science? because it's based on evidence, and even if it isn't perfect, there is a lot more evidence towards it being right as opposed to religion.

 

[FireCat]

while the bible doesn't even account for species that existed before humans, like say dinosaurs - which lived on the earth for millions of years before humans were created

Ha That's a good point.

 

[Dan]

This argument is without any aim anylonger. The burdon of proof is on me, and it is unfair to attack me from so many angles at once. Pick one thing and I'll explain my reasoning. You act as if all I said previously is null and void whenever you say somthing. That is unfair, as I have explained very good reasoning behind many of the things you are now bringing up.

Ultimately, I am annoyed that after thousands of words, put together in a very thoughtful and logical way, that others remain to act as if I have no logical ground to stand on.

You can't just say "science does oppose religion" after I have explained why they don't, and not speak about what I have said, for example.

There are arguments for everything you have to bring up. Logical ones. I don't mind if you don't believe in Christianity, or another religion. As I have stated previously, my only intention is to prove that people with faith are not illogical, nor irrational in their thoughts. There is structure and order being our thoughts just as there is behind yours. The difference is that you would claim that science is in direct conflict with religious thought, and it is very obvious to me that it is not.

 

[KaerfNomekop]

you would claim that science is in direct conflict with religious thought, and it is very obvious to me that it is not.

I used the word "opposed". In past tense. So don't think I'm against you there.

why English what?

Why do we use English in the first place? Why not some other language that developed much longer ago? Why didn't we develop another language instead of English? Why didn't we decide on something other than what we have now?

 

[Slapshot136]

Why do we use English in the first place? Why not some other language that developed much longer ago? Why didn't we develop another language instead of English? Why didn't we decide on something other than what we have now?

pretty sure I answered that

@ dan, pick whichever you feel like you can prove the best

 

[Dan]

I can't prove anything; but neither can you.

If the Bible is a work of fiction, than I am without Christianity. That is where I start my belief and understanding of God. I believe that the Bible is made up of real stories of real things that happened. I also believe that if I live by it's words, that I am going to learn from it and be better off than I was before.

The Bible is comprised of a group of different texts that have been recovered from ancient sites. What makes these texts unique, is the fact that all the authors were writing about the same things. They all have different accounts of what happened, and yet, they all seem to support each other in a unique way. These texts were written hundreds of years apart in some cases, yet they still seem cohesive and as if they had been written down in one sitting. There are passages throughout that echo and restate each other. They stay thematically consistent as well as historically consistent. The Bible contained information about the hetitites, for example, before that civilization was discovered. These texts make many claims about humanity, the universe, and God. Together, they make up the Bible. We say that it is the "written word of God" but we don't mean that God put pen to paper.

The Bible is tough to read, and very easily misunderstood if you are not taking time to analyse it properly. It has been translated from texts that were originally in Hebrew and Greek; which are more complex than many languages we use now. The translations we have are decent; however, much is lost in translation at times. If you have parallel translations, it makes it much easier to understand what each passage is about. Still, many theologians have different beliefs on how to understand the Bible. They all agree; however, that it is unique and profound, and that it is not fictitious.

So we have a book. Does it prove that God exists? No. But if the accounts inside the Bible are true, then God very much so exists.

Even broader, though, some people just believe in a God--not the Biblical God, but one in general. There is no way to prove that God exists simply because if he does, then everything we study is a mere consequence of him existing in the first place. If God exists, then everything is proof; if he does not exist, then there is also no way to prove it to be true. We do know that our nature is unique, and that human beings have no understanding of infinity in the negative direction of existence. There is logically no way that we could come to understand how the universe was created and then what existed before that and why it existed. One simple answer would be that possibly God exists; and because he does, everything else does too.

When I close my eyes and think of the perfect universe without God, it would definitely just be emptyness. Nothing. I cannot imagine matter needing to exist for any reason. If we die and simply stop existing, then I don't see a need for us to ever have existed at all. When I look at the universe, I see chaos. I see things fall apart. After all, the universe is expanding. Rocks crumble, homes collapse: life has no place in the universe as far as I am concerned. Yet out of the chaos, comes order. Life abounds. I know this last bit is colloquial but it's still worth thinking about.

 

[FireCat]

There's no emptiness in our life not even in the universe. I'm certain we're not alone. Ha
Well, I see living people everywhere. living creature, plants. Sure Sometimes it's chaos, sometimes it's not
But the universe /the world are Not Empty at all. and it would Not going to End.No matter what.

 

[Fatmankev]

In my opinion, and from what I consider to be a logical standpoint, an afterlife does not exist.

Firstly, consider any major religion. They were all devised hundreds upon hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago, when life was many times more difficult and just as much less sure. People didn't know if they'd be able to feed their children through the winter, or be able to clothe them and keep them warm. They didn't know if they were going to live through the month, many times. Famine, illness, and disaster were far more damaging, far more destructive, to the point that these people needed something.
They needed hope.

That's where the evolution of religion began - out of the fear of death, and the creeping dread that it was just around the corner. Now, we don't have to worry about those sorts of things; sure, we still need to worry about murder, or accidents, but those are things that people of old also had to cope with, among many others. Because of this, as well as the fact that there are already established religions and that the average level of education is vastly increased, no new religions will ever rise to the same ranks as Christianity, Hinduism or Islam. But I guess that's all beside the point.

I realized one day, standing there and thinking about it, that belief in that afterlife is illogical. The afterlife is a concept devised by the human mind as a defense mechanism. The idea of death, when actually, truly confronted, is so terrifying that we need a way to cope with the idea. That method of coping is an idea of the afterlife, which exists in some form in every religion.

It's in every religion because that's what religion is for - to convince your mind of a lie, the lie that death is not truly the end. It may seem like a bleak way to view things, but psychologically speaking, it makes a lot more sense. At least to me, I know we all view the world a little differently.

I'm not even arguing the existence of a God-like being, although the question is mind-boggling: where did it all come from? Was it created by some God? And if it was, who created said God? And then where did God's creator come from? And where did his creator, and his creator, and his creator come from? At what point did existence itself come into being? Considering this question, just saying, 'God' seems like the lazy man's answer. But for all I know, a God could exist.

And it's not like I have proof that the afterlife doesn't exist, it's just that, considering the way that the human mind works, it seems far too unlikely a thing to be possible.

No matter what, before worshiping God or Gods or anything else, the most important thing to focus on in life is to work toward the betterment of those you care about, your friends and family that make your life, your life. Without these people, life holds no true meaning, no purpose. It's shallow and bland and wasteful. Love those who love you, and if you can spare, love the rest.

I'm not religious, but the ideals of Jesus Christ are excellent. If a man asks for your money, you give him your shirt and your shoes, too (I'm sure that's not really how it goes, but I know it's something along those lines). Only through practicing these sorts of generous, selfless gestures can we, as a people, work against this tide of corruption that has seemingly swallowed us whole. Because at the rate we're going, we're just going to end up destroying ourselves. And with no afterlife, guess what?

We're all fucked.