Death penalty?

[pladams9]

I wasn't patient enough to read all the posts, but this caught my eye:

Alright, this is... My motto.

Eye for an eye.

Dude kills someone. Well, we kill him.

Dude rapes a woman. Well, stick him in a room full of rabidly gay bouncers with a hard-on.

Dude steals stuff. Well, he gives it back and pays with his own money, the same amount he stole.

Dude vandalises. Well, let's send a nice present to his home: A wrecking ball.

Let's see these losers commit crime now, ya so-and-so's!

and

Religion in school, ANY religion, should not be allowed. At all, EXCEPT for one special circumstance. A religious based private school. (Christian schools, Jewish schools, etc. etc.) Even still, they shouldn't be brainwashed like Rin, into thinking that they are absolutely right and everyone around them saying otherwise is going to Hell.

They should, however, be taught that they BELIEVE everyone around them is going to Hell, but they MAY be wrong

A couple of things on these comments and the discussion in general:

1. The Constitution (which so many people abuse in order to get what they want) says the cruel and and unusual punishments are a big no-no. Cruel punishments (such as the death-penalty) are allowed as are unusual punishments (such as helping to build homes for the poor) are also allowed. (Oh, and I'm talking about the U.S., of course. This does not necessarily apply to other countries.)

2. I do not see that capital punishment is immoral. The person knew that was a possibility before-hand and so even some psycho who thinks his murdering someone wasn't wrong, should have realized it. If he thinks it's unjust, he should at least be willing to die for his belief that murder isn't wrong. Now I do not believe all crimes are worthy of capital punishment, but murder definitely is. Possibly (very possibly) rape is too.

3. I completely disagree with no religion in schools. If people are not allowed to profess their own beliefs, then I believe the world is going down the tubes. I do not believe that it should be forced on anyone, ever. Nor do I condone "religious" violence and discrimination. But people do have a basic rights. Also, whether they know it or not, atheism is a "religion." It is and worldview, a set of beliefs. To prohibit religion from school, is to only allow atheists to express their beliefs. I do agree that people should keep an open mind concerning their world-view. But if you believe something, not because your parents told it to you, but because you have questioned and made up your mind, and you truly BELIEVE that, then you can not help but also BELIEVE that people who believe differently are not believing the truth. I believe in absolutes. You can not have more than one truth.

 

[DM Cross]

Yeah, but you can't go teaching kids what to believe.

Teachers are "older and wiser" and make impressions upon younger kids. If you have a Christian teacher who teaches Christian beliefs, or preachs about them as being "right", then most of his students will grow up to be Christian (most likely, unless their parents [of a different religion] step in and make sure they know what THEY want their children to believe)

In my opinion, you should EXPLAIN the beliefs of every religion without revealing what you are and leave it to the kid. S/he'll grow up. S/he'll figure something out.

-About the Penalty-

It's over, so I won't even bother continuing the discussion. I can let things die without getting the last word And these will be MY last words about that for now

-Clearer standings on Religion-

I don't mean you should have NO religion in school. Just that you shouldn't be teaching a child to be whatever YOU feel is right. That is the job of a parent, not some teacher who may not know/care about this child anyway.

That's what I wanted to say, except, hopefully, a lot more clearly

 

[sqrage]

Because...you don't live. Duh.

Besides, people kill people in countries that have torture.

feeling endless pain is a lot worse than dying, example would you rather burn alive in a house or get shot in the head.

And they dont have death penatly for rapists, only murders

 

[MasterOfABCs]

oh my god, this kicks ass, realy guys thanks soooooooo much for basically arguing. this will help me so much. i get to deabte after watching people go at it! i have some idea of what im getting into now. well i guesse ill throw my own opinion in here on both.


Deaht peantly (capitla punishment)- (assingment= aginast DP) but i am actully all for it. he kills, kill him, only thing i think is, give him doeses of his own medicine, he shoots some one, shoot him. if he injects some one inject that freak. so no mercy. i know what people do to people out thier. electric chair and leathel injection is nothing. betetr yet, tell the executioner this.

"he (insert crime here), be creative."

Religion in school- (assingment= aginst RiS) i am actully aginst it, totaly no more christain or catholic schools. go to curch on your own time. dont get me wrong im all for worshiping your god. just not while we try to get you a education. it leads to nothign but trouble, religouse fueds, ecenomic fights, relgion grudges. it just seems easier for every oen to axe the public religion, keep it to yourself.

 

[Sargon]

oh my god, this kicks ass, realy guys thanks soooooooo much for basically arguing. this will help me so much. i get to deabte after watching people go at it! i have some idea of what im getting into now. well i guesse ill throw my own opinion in here on both.


Deaht peantly (capitla punishment)- (assingment= aginast DP) but i am actully all for it. he kills, kill him, only thing i think is, give him doeses of his own medicine, he shoots some one, shoot him. if he injects some one inject that freak. so no mercy. i know what people do to people out thier. electric chair and leathel injection is nothing. betetr yet, tell the executioner this.

"he (insert crime here), be creative."

Religion in school- (assingment= aginst RiS) i am actully aginst it, totaly no more christain or catholic schools. go to curch on your own time. dont get me wrong im all for worshiping your god. just not while we try to get you a education. it leads to nothign but trouble, religouse fueds, ecenomic fights, relgion grudges. it just seems easier for every oen to axe the public religion, keep it to yourself.

Food for thought about the capital punishment thing: If you kill them the way that they killed, what if you arrested a cannibal? Eat him? Who would do that?

Religion: Catholic/other religious schools don't count, dude. They're private schools. The only debate is in public schools. Private schools can do whatever they want in that regard.

 

[pladams9]

I don't mean you should have NO religion in school. Just that you shouldn't be teaching a child to be whatever YOU feel is right. That is the job of a parent, not some teacher who may not know/care about this child anyway.

Then I think we're pretty much in agreement. And eventually everyone should decide for themselves what it is that they believe.

 

[Sud]

The idea behind freedom of religion is that people be allowed to practice their religion regardless of the circumstances. For a person that is religious, the religion is the most important and focal point in their lives, and they will believe that nothing they do can be "religion neutral", especially something as important as school. Supressing it only feeds the "omg you're repressing me" card. So long as the religion is not directly causing you any inconvenience, there's just some things you're going to have to put up with in life.

Besides, religion is funny. We used to have this one teacher who had a no hats rule in class, and a sikh friend of ours would always wear his turban in and say "sorry sir, I have to keep my hat on" and that owned the teacher ez.

 

[pladams9]

Oh, and I just saw this:

it just seems easier for every oen to axe the public religion, keep it to yourself.

Most people with strong religious beliefs want and need to make it public. Otherwise they are pretty much hypocrites. Religious beliefs are no different from any other kinds of belief, and making the expression beliefs in public illegal pretty much removes all freedoms. No more forums. No more evangelizing, and pretty much everyone's world view would stay the same forever. No improvement upon them. No more freedom of speech.

 

[Cognitor]

Ok people, I can't let the death penalty discussion die because I absolutely disagree with what EVERYONE has said. There are so many misconceptions here. I'd like to take particular note of the fact that several people said "statistics are useless here."
Here are some facts for you (drawn from statistics):
1) Capital Punishment has not served as an effective deterant to any crimes. Britain, Canada, France; niether of these countries have the death penalty yet the US has at least 3 times as many crimes per year than any of these contries.
2) It is MORE expensive to keep inmates on death row than to imprison them for life.

I don't know how any of you find torture more moral than the death penalty

Your thoughts about the Hammurabian system of punishment ("eye for an eye" nonsense) are way too flawed. With this system, too much 'creative' power would be given to judges. This would often times be unconstitutional as we are protected from cruel and unusual punishments (emphasis on unusual). This system also overlooks crimes committed by accident such as car accidents as well as non-violent crimes like insider trading.

Consider: The Judicial System was established with the a motto that they 'would rather see 9 guilty men go free than have one innocent man punished.'

Consider: Many people who are in prison are merely drug offenders who face MINIMUM sentenses of 2 years for things like possession (courtisy of the Controlled Substance Act).

Consider: In state surveys of crime rates, crimes committed in prison are added to those committed on the streets. Obviously there is a high crime rate in prisons and this scews the statistics a bit (only a bit because there aren't as many people in prison as there aren't).

NOW, with all these facts and statistics in mind, make up your own mind.
I believe that the death penalty should be used for closure to the victims families and NO OTHER REASON. It is for revenge for the families. It is not cost effective, it may not be moral depending on your beliefs, and it is not an effective deturrent.

 

[Cognitor]

And about religion and schools:
Things about different religions should be taught in history classes in historical contexts e.g Puritinism in the New England colonies or the Great Shism.
It should not be "you should believe," but "they believe." It is important to understand people's beliefs and religions for social reasons and historical reasons. You probably don't want to be at your Jewish friend's wedding and asking someone to pass the pork.

1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Teaching many religions is not unconstitutional because it does not show respect to one religion in particular. It is however unconstitional for a teacher to tell a student what religion to believe in. The student may choose not to agree with her opinion but it is still illegal because the student does not have the choice of being able to avoid listening (reasonably speaking).

Consider: A Nazi group was given permission to rally a parade through a prodominantly Jewish nieghborhood in a court case: National Socialist Party v. Village of Skokie (1977). The Nazis were allowed to march because they had a first amendment right to do so AND (and it's a big "and") the jewish citizens were able to avoid seeing and hearing the parade; they were not forced to witness it (which I think is BS).

Anyway, this shows that freedom to voice your religion is limited to listeners who have a choice whether or not to listen.
I say religious teachings should stay out of public schools unless in a historical context (historical context does not include Jesus was nailed to the cross and lived for however many days; historical context does not include Creationism).

 

[pladams9]

Statistics are useful things, but there are many more factors for crime-rates in the countries you listed than just the death penalty. A more accurate representation would be to compare only the crimes that get people the death-penalty. I'm fairly sure that the statistics listed include all crimes as small as pick-pocketing. Also you said "crimes per year." The U.S. is much bigger than any of the countries you listed, so it would make sense that the U.S would have many more crimes.

2) It is MORE expensive to keep inmates on death row than to imprison them for life.

Really? I didn't know that. Could you explain why? I'm curious.

This would often times be unconstitutional as we are protected from cruel and unusual punishments (emphasis on unusual).

Just a note on this: As I said earlier cruel punishments and unusual punishments are fine, cruel AND unusual punishments are not.

I believe that the death penalty should be used for closure to the victims families and NO OTHER REASON. It is for revenge for the families.

This I believe is wrong. The death-penalty is to punish criminals. Not for revenge. If that is the only reason it is used then it would be used often and we would be just as bad as murderers.

 

[Cognitor]

The U.S is bigger than Canada and although the U.S' population is about 25% greater than the population of all these other countries combined (which is probably an overstatement, but it favors you so bare with me)(Canada, France, England). So the ratio of crime rates is ABOUT 3:4 from these 3 countries to the U.S. If you add the crime rates of these 3 countries, they do not come close to matching that of the U.S.

It is more expensive to keep inmates on death row because they require higher upkeep and security than even high security prisons. When you know you're on death row, you don't really care about the consequences of anything anymore. Extra attention is given to inmates, thus extra money is spent. This is a fact. Yes, I'm sure.

"Just a note on this: As I said earlier cruel punishments and unusual punishments are fine, cruel AND unusual punishments are not." I believe that kind of interpretation is left to the Supreme Court. Furthermore that is a gigantic strech to isolate "cruel" from "unusual" when they are connected by "and."

I didn't say it is used for punishment because it is clearly ineffective. I said that I BELIEVE that it should be used to bring closure to families; obviously the govenment can't and shouldn't say that.

The death penalty is also often used in extreme cases. People don't get the death penalty for manslaughter, they get it from something like raping and torturing people before they kill them. The extremity of such is left to the discretion of the court so it is, I admit, a bit rusty.


I also forgot to mention (this is for whoever made the comment regarding this): Prisoners cannot be put to work for several reasons among which 1) They definately can't and shouldn't provide and services and 2) They can't be trusted with any tools to produce any goods worth producing. Prisoners can be very resourceful with few things. I saw on TV how this prisoner made a sharp weapon by heating wet toilet paper without letting it burn over a period of time. The paper hardened and he stabbed someone with it. I wouldn't want to give a prisoner a hammer to make tables or build anything.

 

[Sud]

You forgot to disagree with what I said, which is to work em back into semi-usefulness

 

[pladams9]

Prisoners can be put to work with simpler tasks, in open areas where it is hard to hide anything. Cleaning up trash by the side of the road is an example. Then again, I do not think that anyone on death-row or serving a life sentence should be allowed out for ANYTHING.

As far as extra security and therefore extra cost, it makes sense I there is no reason for me not to believe you, BUT wouldn't the cost have to be much greater per year because usually life-sentences are longer the waiting on death-row. I have heard that you can wait years on death-row, but wouldn't the cost have to be much, much more to make up the difference of time? I'm not arguing with you, just wondering. I suppose it also depends on the ages of most life-sentence prisoners and death-row prisoners. Older prisoners would die more quickly and therefore would cost less than a death-row prisoner who was convicted at the same age. Any input on that.

 

[XXXconanXXX]

I've heard of a prison where the prisoners were forced to wear pink panties while they worked in the hot sun, doing this and that.

The idea behind it was to humiliate them and make them work hard.

 

[Cognitor]

I have heard that you can wait years on death-row, but wouldn't the cost have to be much, much more to make up the difference of time? I'm not arguing with you, just wondering.

It didn't make sense to me either when I found out but the extra security and attention to each prisoner is really that much more expensive.

"For the states which employ the death penalty, this luxury comes at a high price. In Texas, a death penalty case costs taxpayers an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years [Texas also has the highest murder rate in the country].(3) In Florida, each execution is costing the state $3.2 million.(4) In financially strapped California, one report estimated that the state could save $90 million each year by abolishing capital punishment.(5) The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually" (http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html)

"In Florida, a mid-year budget cut of $45 million for the Department of Corrections forced the early release of 3,000 inmates.(10) Yet, by 1988 Florida had spent $57.2 million to accomplish the execution of 18 people.(11) It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole.(12) In contrast, Professors Richard Moran and Joseph Ellis estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates.(13)" (http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html)

Prisoners can be put to work with simpler tasks, in open areas where it is hard to hide anything. Cleaning up trash by the side of the road is an example.

Unfortunately this is pretty much all they can do and it really isn't that productive. Consider weighing the cost of hiring someone with a truck to pickup trash and the cost of hiring 10 plus guards to watch prisoners do it.

Suds, you mentioned earlier that imprisonment and the death penalty were the only forms of punishement for crimes. You missed community service and fines. Giving prisoners the tools to be productive would not be safe or smart. The government isn't being stupid about it, it's being safe about it.

Here's some additional interesting info I found courtesy of http://www.answers.com/topic/capital-punishment

The 12 countries with the most executions in 2004:

China - 3,400+
Iran - 159+
Vietnam - 64+
USA - 59
Saudi Arabia - 33+
Pakistan - 15+
Kuwait - 9+
Bangladesh - 7+
Egypt - 6+
Singapore - 6+
Yemen - 6+
Belarus - 5+

Here's a string from that link: I think you guys should definately read this article. I found it fascinating.

Some more interesting info:
In the US capital punishment throughout the country may only be used in cases of aggravated murder, treason, terrorism, drug trafficing, sexual battery, and aggravated kidnapping. The crimes that are considered for capital punishment are at the descretion of the state therefore, for example, only in Florida and Montana can you get the death penalty for sexual assault/sexual battery. Most states only consider first degree murder as punishable by the death penalty. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=144&scid=10)

Something else I found surprising was what kind of crimes were eligable for capital punishment in other countries:
Yemen - Murder, Adultery, homosexuality, Apostasy (changing your religion)
Vietnam - (there's a long list but here are the most notable: robbery, embezzlement, fraud
United Arab Emirates - Murder, drug offences, homosexuality
Singapore - murder, kidnapping, treason, certain firearm offences, trafficking in more than 15 grams (half an ounce) of heroin, 30 grams of cocaine or 500 grams of cannabis
Saudi Arabia - Many violent and nonviolent offenses including murder, apostasy, drug offenses, witchcraft and sexual misconduct
Papua New Guinea - Treason; Piracy; Attempted piracy; wilful murder
Nigeria - Sodomy
Mauritania - Sodomy, Apostasy
Malaysia - (most notable) Mandatory for Trafficking in dangerous drugs; Discharging a firearm in the Commission of a scheduled offence, accomplices in case of discharge of firearm
Laos - drugs trafficking
Iran - Sodomy, armed robbery, terrorism drug trafficking, kidnapping & rape murder, apostasy
China - (most notable) Embezzlement, fraud, people trafficking


Kinda makes you stop and appreciate the good ol' U.S.
I just put these last pieces of info in just because I found them interesting. I hope you do to.

 

[pladams9]

I've heard of a prison where the prisoners were forced to wear pink panties while they worked in the hot sun, doing this and that.

The idea behind it was to humiliate them and make them work hard.

Actually, I heard about that too, and it wasn't only to humiliate them. While working, the odd prisoner does escape. They take off their prison uniform, and their normal grey boxer-briefs look enough like jogging shorts that no one will report them running around. The pink makes them stand out, and because people have been told in that area they are on the look out for pink. At least thats what I heard.

 

[sqrage]

The 12 countries with the most executions in 2004:

China - 3,400+
Iran - 159+
Vietnam - 64+
USA - 59
Saudi Arabia - 33+
Pakistan - 15+
Kuwait - 9+
Bangladesh - 7+
Egypt - 6+
Singapore - 6+
Yemen - 6+
Belarus - 5+

yay china...i bet they have no crime.

 

[Cognitor]

The site noted that death penalty has had little if any effect on crime rate in China.

 

[-fool-]

that number is probably a lot lower than it is as well. china isnt too adept at monitoring everything... like thier census program.. it doesnt exist.