[Discussion] The Power of Intelligence

Jinxx

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I remember reading that the STR and AGI values of a hero are much more powerful than INT, since STR gives health (survivability), AGI gives attack speed (more damage, more crits, bash, etc.), while the only thing INT increases is the amount of mana and it's regeneration.

Mana, by itself, and it's regen, is somewhat underpowered since it's only an issue during the early game when heroes might not have enough of it to cast their spells more than once. As soon as mid/late game hits, mana becomes a non-issue since most heroes die or kill their target(s) before running out of mana or re-casting their spells more than once or twice.

Now aside from resorting to funky custom systems (ex; all spells triggered to do INT-based damage), how could we boost the power of INT heroes in our maps without reaching for cliched methods (like, say, making their nukes overpowered)?

I have quite a few INT heroes in the map I'm making, and they're quite balanced, but they all feel so... underpowered. Compare most W3 maps to WoW, where arcane casters like mages easily hold their own against STR (Warriors) and AGI (Rogues) heroes.

If given the chance to purchase STR/AGI/INT tomes, most players go for STR/AGI, and even those controlling INT heroes pick up STR tomes to buff their fragile hero's survivability.

Discuss?
 

sarkurayboy

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In my opinion , High INT if for spell spammers and damage dealers. I mean , if you are a INT hero,of course you will buy STR tomes for hp , INT for damage and max mana pool rite? But yet again , i think INT is the most lousy attribute among all.:thup:
 

WCGMapMaker

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This is not WoW and i disaprove of the that game as it is an insult to the original blizzard fans, all bizzard cares about now is money and thats all WoW is good for. Don't waste your time comparing the two games, Int heros work with units, str heros work alone/with units at a mid level, agi heros work alone and with units somewhat poorly. That is the way it works, Units/Alone
Str medium/medium
Agi Weak/Strong
Intl Strong/Weak

problem solved, this is for ladder maps, you can always make it your own in custom maps IE dota, my storm will pwn your ursa.
 

sarkurayboy

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This is not WoW and i disaprove of the that game as it is an insult to the original blizzard fans, all bizzard cares about now is money and thats all WoW is good for. Don't waste your time comparing the two games, Int heros work with units, str heros work alone/with units at a mid level, agi heros work alone and with units somewhat poorly. That is the way it works, Units/Alone
Str medium/medium
Agi Weak/Strong
Intl Strong/Weak

problem solved, this is for ladder maps, you can always make it your own in custom maps IE dota, my storm will pwn your ursa.
Yes, Blizzard just wan earn big bucks. Its actually rather dissapointing that you have to pay so much , just to know the story after W3 TFT....
 

Jonnycakes

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Well, without directly buffing nukes based on int, you could design nukes to intrinsically take advantage of the extra mana pool. For example, you could have something like a high mana-cost, high damage immolation that isn't supported for long by a low mana pool. The higher your max mana/regen, the longer you can use it. Or you could make spells that cost a percentage of a user's mana pool rather than a set amount (would have to be triggered)-the more mana spent on them, the more powerful they are. Or you could trigger some other intrinsic bonus for intelligence, like passively increasing a hero's magic resistance.
 

Never_Quit

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In my opinion , High INT if for spell spammers and damage dealers. I mean , if you are a INT hero,of course you will buy STR tomes for hp , INT for damage and max mana pool rite? But yet again , i think INT is the most lousy attribute among all.:thup:
If you were to make spells damage and cost variably based off of your int, then int based would no longer be so weak.
 

Accname

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make the cooldowns for your spells very short.

much mana = many spells casted
little mana = few spells casted

if the cooldown is low you can spam your abilitys more often depending on how much mana you got.
 

jig7c

Stop reading me...-statement
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the main thing that INT does is increase damage... the bonus part is mana regen/increase mana pool.... you could give all the high-damage spells to the INT heroes and raise up their cost...
 

Jonnycakes

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One more idea-if you want intelligence heroes to be more powerful later on, give them spells that will be relevant. Instead of "deal 300 damage" it could be "deal 20% of the enemy's health".
 

Jinxx

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But yet again , i think INT is the most lousy attribute among all.
Sadly, most people agree... :(

problem solved, this is for ladder maps, you can always make it your own in custom maps IE dota, my storm will pwn your ursa.
I wasn't talking about ladder maps, since we can't customize them. Also... lol, yeah, having perma-blink is really skillful! ;)

Or you could make spells that cost a percentage of a user's mana pool rather than a set amount (would have to be triggered)-the more mana spent on them, the more powerful they are.
Well, that's the "easy" way - increase the spell damage, either directly or via triggers. However, there's got to be a more subtle and elegant way of boosting the power of INT heroes.
If you were to make spells damage and cost variably based off of your int, then int based would no longer be so weak.
True, but that discourages multiple builds and pidgeonholes players into stacking INT damage. Compare that to, say, tank/disabler STR heroes with high health that can be built and played both like tanks and heavy disablers.


make the cooldowns for your spells very short.

much mana = many spells casted
little mana = few spells casted

if the cooldown is low you can spam your abilitys more often depending on how much mana you got.
Actually, that's quite a good idea, and kills 2 birds with 1 stone - increases both the DPS output of an INT hero, and cuts down the "downtime" where INT heroes have to use their lame physical attacks while their spells are on cooldown! :thup:


the main thing that INT does is increase damage... the bonus part is mana regen/increase mana pool.... you could give all the high-damage spells to the INT heroes and raise up their cost...
Another very good idea... Leave the heavy nuking to the nukers, the disables to STR heroes, and the physical DPS to AGI... not bad, not bad at all! :thup:
 

Bogrim

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It's really only a problem in stat-centric maps where the item system plays a bigger role in the strength of a hero. Having more capacity isn't as strong as increasing your DPS, and that's the reason for caster heroes usually fall behind as the game progresses.

To fix the issue, trigger the damage of your spells and make Intelligence part of the equation for Intelligence-based heroes.
 

tooltiperror

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Factor how much gold you get when killing a unit to your intelligence.

Either giving your intelligence or multiplying be something like 1.075+
 

tommerbob

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I agree with the general sentiment that IN GENERAL, in most maps, the intelligence attribute is weaker than strength and agility, for reasons already stated.

In my map, I have increased the usefulness of Intelligence by using Spell (or Ability) Power, which is based on Intelligence. Not all heroes use it, but most of the spell casters do. The power of their spells (damage, AoE, etc) is relative to their intelligence, rather than a set amount, thereby making them a viable hero throughout the entire game, rather than just early-mid game nuking.
 

jig7c

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you could make it so, the more intel you have, the more armor you get..

str gets hp/hp regen
agi could get attack/move speed increase
int could get armor/mana regen/mana pool increase, or maybe all INT gets free blink ability...this could give an edge for the INT heroes over other heroes...


obviously, increase damage applies to all
 

XeNiM666

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INT based heroes have complex spells at their disposal.
e.g. hard to control, hard to master, but incredibly rewarding..

At most games, INT based heroes are good at support, at the same time good at killing those pesky enemy heroes as well as disabling them.
Some INT are weak at early games but retain their strength as the game progresses on.

It doesnt really matter if the spells deal INT based damage because INT heroes are based on the player using them. Literally, "using the player's own intelligence" in controlling ones hero. He doesnt really need high burst damage spells but strategic spells that can be used whenever possible but have certain conditions that they will work the best.

What's great about INT heroes is that they arent really that item dependent that AGI or STR. INT heroes, really only need enough mana to spam their spells at their potential and help their fellow heroes to victory...

Well, thats my understanding on INT heroes. But basically it just depends on your game...
:)

i think INT is the most lousy attribute among all
I disagree. As I said, WC3 is a strategic game.
STR are used for tanking heroes and damaging them as well.
AGI are used to destroy enemies in single hand-to-hand combat.
INT has spells to either disable, aoe-damage or support your allies in the battle. Each spells aren't just spammed, but used "strategic-ly" to reach their full potential. "Flame Strike" and "Inferno" are 2 best examples in my case.
 

killingdyl

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Expanding on what xenim said:

EXAMPLE:
Take witch doctor(dota) or voodoo jester(hon) they are the same hero basicly. Their spells have the best synergy but when used alone can be shitty. One skill is a bouncing stun that doesnt damage heroes(waste huh?) but in reality if you get only 2 heros, you can bounce between just the 2 of them creating a really really long stun. The next skill gives the heros a buff, every 4 seconds, the unit takes damage(increased by a percent of damage taken). But the aoe of this spell is really bad so you need the stun. The last spell that works in this combo sets down a ward that attacks very fast with chaos damage. This spell alone is pretty strong, but combine it with the other 2 and BAM ultimate destruction.

So int heroes are basicly strategy and skill combos.
 

Jinxx

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So int heroes are basicly strategy and skill combos.
Pudge from DotA is one of the coolest heroes due to both his theme and the insane amount of synergy his spells have with each other, yet he's a STR hero. I wish there were more INT heroes in custom maps with such cool, synergistic skills. :eek:
 

Curo

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I agree completely with Xenim.

The game I play most is Arena Nexus. In this game we see very clearly the difference between agi/str/int heroes. Every attribute must be played differently.

@ OP: You said that the bonus mana is no longer useful because you are dying before you run out of mana. That is your main problem. You need to kite and run as an int hero. You can't just stand there and melee an agi/str hero. I get this sentiment ALL the time from people who don't know how to play Arena Nexus properly: "you pussy why do you run and not stand and fight?"

Intelligence heroes are balanced in that they usually have the easiest way to deal damage (via nukes and spells), yet they are fragile. I think Arena Nexus is a great map because it also balances this with the weaknesses of other attributes: str heroes being durable yet slow, and agility heroes having low health but high attack speed. Additionally, the intelligence heroes get 50% more tome for their money when buying intelligence in this map (which may be a solution to your "problem").

If you take a less confrontational approach to playing intelligence heroes, you will find that their strengths do not lay in combat as you are so hoping.

As a side note, increased movement speed would be a cool bonus for intelligence heroes.
 
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