Does socialism work?

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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Like. You get paid the same as person A even if you work hard and person A does not

That's actually communism which is a little (little) more extreme.

Basically in Socialism you get the shit taxed out of your income (50+% possibly), which allows the government to give you a bunch of services you don't actually need. The point is to make it so that people aren't divided into social classes, but despite this there are still those who are in poverty and there are those that are richer than everyone else and there are still people in the middle. Therefore, Socialism does not work. People can argue it does or that it's better than Capitalism until they can't speak anymore, and then do it again once they get their voice back, and repeat their entire life. But it doesn't mean it works; it still fails and always will fail until EVERYONE that lives in a Socialist state is not classified as in 'poverty.'
 

uberfoop

~=Admiral Stukov=~
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1. Uhm, i didnt get the second paragraph :/ (wait, now i do). It just seems thats how socialism does its work. I might have remembered wrong, but everyone is treated equally. Like. You get paid the same as person A even if you work hard and person A does not
...No.

Theres a difference between "controlled freedom (wow, what a contradictory)" and "ANARCHY" i dont mean as in.. people do whatever they want. I mean. the government directly, controlling what you do, where you put your money, what college you go to. ETC. Complete freedom cannot be achieved because that leaves to.. anarchy. Rules that people follow in living together: law. And with bigger government, the more people depends on the government, the more people will allow government to grow. And eventually, the government will have another power to control what you want. with rules. unfair rules that you have to follow.
Which is of course why this stuff is being discussed.

Yes, larger government means less freedom inherintly just based on the fact that you'll have monetary use going on and thus higher taxes and thus less freedom of where to put your money. Is this bad? Depending on how it's applied, not necessarily.

That's actually communism which is a little (little) more extreme.
False. Communism is not more extreme than socialism. It's a branch of socialism.

Basically in Socialism you get the shit taxed out of your income (50+% possibly), which allows the government to give you a bunch of services you don't actually need. The point is to make it so that people aren't divided into social classes, but despite this there are still those who are in poverty and there are those that are richer than everyone else and there are still people in the middle. Therefore, Socialism does not work. People can argue it does or that it's better than Capitalism until they can't speak anymore, and then do it again once they get their voice back, and repeat their entire life. But it doesn't mean it works; it still fails and always will fail until EVERYONE that lives in a Socialist state is not classified as in 'poverty.'
Rofl. So it has to work perfectly under any and all circumstances every time to be said to be working at all?

Fantastic. I guess staplers are disfunctional as well, what with those staples getting jammed when I try to staple 50 pages together. And axes, with those silly heads becoming disloged here and there; they're just so unreliable. Or cars; you couldn't possibly ever get from one place to another in those things.
 

ElderKingpin

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Well. it has to work extremely well. Because under par, its just fail, if everyone gets paid the same based on the overall work, then a super nation would start kicking ass and taking names.
 

uberfoop

~=Admiral Stukov=~
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I have no clue what point you're trying to make (Your post makes no sense. Really.), and, in particular, why you think that economies with more significant government control should be held to higher standards.
 

ElderKingpin

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If. everyone would get paid the same. And you were diligent EVEN when you dont have to work, then socialism would work, and things like healthcare and the such are free then... a high standard of living would be achieved
 

uberfoop

~=Admiral Stukov=~
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If. everyone would get paid the same.
What does that have to do with anything? Most modern supporters of socialism don't seek to level the income field.

And you were diligent EVEN when you dont have to work,
What does that have to do with anything? Why are you still pulling this BS line that everyone has pointed out to be completely irrelevant?
 

ElderKingpin

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:/ its not that hard to understand (in my opinion)

Socialism revolves around the idea that ... people are treated equally (or they try to be treated equally)

The fact that Socialism focuses on groups rather then the individual leads a person to believe that he does not have to work.

Basically socialism only works when people a perfect. pointing back on Varine :/
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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So it has to work perfectly under any and all circumstances every time to be said to be working at all?

It doesn't work as it is intended, that argument is irrelevant. You can't compare a governmental system that controls day to day activities and employs and regulates populations of millions of people to an inanimate object that in all probability has a label somewhere that says a limit. For instance, when I went to the store I had a choice of getting the super deluxe stapler that could handle like three hundred sheets. I opted for the much cheaper one that can do seventeen. Because things like that, you don't rely on them, and when they break or stop working you can go get another one. Last I checked, the government doesn't get to say "Well... we only have to take care of a few of you citizens." I certainly don't know where I'm going to find another government (I mean obviously I can move but that's not the point I'm remotely making) and I doubt you do, so I deal with the one I got. Besides, I'm not going to have guns pretty soon apparently, so I can't really go make my own.
 

Zakyath

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>The fact that Socialism focuses on groups rather then the individual leads a person to believe that he does not have to work.

There you go again making stuff up. Maybe YOU wouldn't work if you had the slightest chance to get away with not working. I would.

I live in a, well, slightly socialist country. I spend over 100 hours a month in school and over 100 hours a month working. And why am I doing this? Actually, if I really tried I could skip all this and abuse the system to get money from our government. But I'm not. I don't know a single person that does this. So please explain, why is it so that the majority of all socialists doesn't want to work? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and socialists know that.
 

Miz

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Let's please try to keep this debate modest, I already had to delete a few posts in here, and if it continues I will have to close the thread.
 

thewrongvine

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This isn't really a debate lol. No government will ever, ever work completely because all people are different. It all depends on which group of people you want to support. But then again, you can't support all the good groups without helping the bad groups.

~Hai-Bye-Vine~
 

ElderKingpin

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>The fact that Socialism focuses on groups rather then the individual leads a person to believe that he does not have to work.

There you go again making stuff up. Maybe YOU wouldn't work if you had the slightest chance to get away with not working. I would.

I live in a, well, slightly socialist country. I spend over 100 hours a month in school and over 100 hours a month working. And why am I doing this? Actually, if I really tried I could skip all this and abuse the system to get money from our government. But I'm not. I don't know a single person that does this. So please explain, why is it so that the majority of all socialists doesn't want to work? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and socialists know that.

Well. You said slightly socialistic. and you dont even state what country you are from. Larger countries lead to larger corruption. along with the fact that you stated "slightly socialistic" im talking full socialism here.
 

ReVolver

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My family has making the minimum wage for over 50 years, I doubt that they will slack off if the nation is turns socialist.
 

Varine

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My family has making the minimum wage for over 50 years, I doubt that they will slack off if the nation is turns socialist.

Yeah but you live in Mexico, I'd be more worried about the cartels taking over.
 

Zakyath

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>Well. You said slightly socialistic. and you dont even state what country you are from. Larger countries lead to larger corruption. along with the fact that you stated "slightly socialistic" im talking full socialism here.

I thought I made it very clear in the last page that I am from Sweden, I'm sorry I didn't remind you.

And a country with corruption wouldn't be a socialist country. No one is better than anyone else, or has more than someone else; therefore there would be no corruption. If it was, it wouldn't be socialism in it's purest form.

So if we're talking "real" socialism, that would be a society where man is not flawed, and therefore it would work. If greed was involved, it actually would end with some people working more than others, and some people earning more than others. If that was the case, we haven't got the socialism anymore and we're discussing something else.

So what we really should discussing here is how far this world can adapt itself to socialism without disfunctioning. Not if a "perfect society" in the theory is perfect or not in the theory.
 

Varine

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Not very far; Socialism and Communism would be the government of a utopia. Capitalism is the government that works in the real world, where people are driven by greed and self-interest.
 

WastedSavior

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Not very far; Socialism and Communism would be the government of a utopia. Capitalism is the government that works in the real world, where people are driven by greed and self-interest.


Works

Im surprised you used this word.
It's clear for anyone to see that capitalism does not work.
The rich get richer by screwing over the poor and eventually the economy collapses because of those who are motivated by greed and self-interest.

In reality no form of government is flawless, to suggest otherwise would be naive.

I once had a teacher tell me, its not about who wins, its about who goes broke first, and we just went broke.
 

ElderKingpin

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yes. and like i said. its called the american dream. People have the opportunity to make millions for example. Here is a story of my dad (of course, this can and did happen to plenty of other people)

During the Vietnam War, my dad and his family (his wife, his sister, etc.), but mainly my dad. Got sick of living in vietnam and so. They decided to sneak out. My father had made arrangements to so that a guy would come over. And pick them up from Vietnam and send them away. Anywhere, they just wanted to get to America, or somewhere better, the man had agreed to come that night. And when night came, nobody was there. My father had to swim out every time to check out if the guy was there. This little process continued for almost a year. And after a year, people started to notice. so now a small crowd of people wanted to get on too. Until finally, the guy came and they all piled on to the boat. My father had a very limited food supply. So, he had to ration it between EVERYONE. My dad stated there was only food to last about 20 people for maybe a few days, and that was not being generous with the food. Even his family started to complain about why he wouldnt treat them better. My father just said that there was not enough food to show favoritism. After a day or two of drifting my dad saw a battleship (or some kind of ship) in the horizon. And the little boat signaled it in anyway they could. The boat saw them and come over and as the US soldiers were hauling the people in the boat up. My dad said there was only enough food for 20 people. But as the soldiers were hauling the refugees up they kept coming. And coming there was maybe 100-200 people on that boat. The captain of the ship said, he would have never hauled them up, he had direct orders not to haul them up unless a storm was coming. And that was why the boat came over. A storm was coming over and would probably have obliterated the boat. They landed in America. and the first thing my dad did was to get a job to support his family. The first thing he bought. was a radio. And we still have it (still works too :thup:). Now. he is an experienced C++ coder, he has several certificates in AMX, he fixes computers for people, and he owns a small business.

That. is the American dream, rags to riches.

America may be jacked up now. But it still nurtures the little thing that makes everyone want to come to it. Opportunity
 

Flare

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Don't really have anything to add to the debate itself (since I know nothing of socialism, I'm just living in blissful ignorance of such things :D) but...
yes. and like i said. its called the american dream. People have the opportunity to make millions for example. Here is a story of my dad (of course, this can and did happen to plenty of other people)

During the Vietnam War, my dad and his family (his wife, his sister, etc.), but mainly my dad. Got sick of living in vietnam and so. They decided to sneak out. My father had made arrangements to so that a guy would come over. And pick them up from Vietnam and send them away. Anywhere, they just wanted to get to America, or somewhere better, the man had agreed to come that night. And when night came, nobody was there. My father had to swim out every time to check out if the guy was there. This little process continued for almost a year. And after a year, people started to notice. so now a small crowd of people wanted to get on too. Until finally, the guy came and they all piled on to the boat. My father had a very limited food supply. So, he had to ration it between EVERYONE. My dad stated there was only food to last about 20 people for maybe a few days, and that was not being generous with the food. Even his family started to complain about why he wouldnt treat them better. My father just said that there was not enough food to show favoritism. After a day or two of drifting my dad saw a battleship (or some kind of ship) in the horizon. And the little boat signaled it in anyway they could. The boat saw them and come over and as the US soldiers were hauling the people in the boat up. My dad said there was only enough food for 20 people. But as the soldiers were hauling the refugees up they kept coming. And coming there was maybe 100-200 people on that boat. The captain of the ship said, he would have never hauled them up, he had direct orders not to haul them up unless a storm was coming. And that was why the boat came over. A storm was coming over and would probably have obliterated the boat. They landed in America. and the first thing my dad did was to get a job to support his family. The first thing he bought. was a radio. And we still have it (still works too :thup:). Now. he is an experienced C++ coder, he has several certificates in AMX, he fixes computers for people, and he owns a small business.

That. is the American dream, rags to riches.

America may be jacked up now. But it still nurtures the little thing that makes everyone want to come to it. Opportunity
May I ask how that has anything to do with socialism? That doesn't really demonstrate how it can (or can't) work. Perhaps I'm reading into your replies a bit much, but when put alongside
Well. You said slightly socialistic. and you dont even state what country you are from. Larger countries lead to larger corruption. along with the fact that you stated "slightly socialistic" im talking full socialism here.
you seem very intent on trying to discredit socialism either by suggesting that, in the case of your first response to Zakyath, a specific country doesn't employ socialist policy heavily enough to have a significant amount of corruption within the system (although, you'd probably have a fairly tough time finding an economic policy that isn't at risk of corruption) or by trying to smother it with a happy-ending story of capitalism (but not everyone will have the same oppurtunities).
 
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