World Dolphins granted personhood by government of India

camelCase

The Case of the Mysterious Camel.
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That the new laws only protect women from rape and sexual assault and not men and transgender people is a major failure.
From that BBC link.

But the new laws still don't protect women enough in certain areas.. (And protect too much in others)
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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I think this "animals are smart"-talk is misleading. a dolphin is smart compared to a rock or an apple, but compared to a person...? nah.
Besides people, they appear to have one, if not the, most advanced forms of vocal communication ever observed. This, apparently, is at least borderline language, and the concept of organized and vocalized language is by far the most advanced thing humanity has ever accomplished. Language is the absolute underlying basis for every technology our species has been capable of inventing. In the event that a dolphin is capable of even a basic form of language with other dolphins, then they are about as intelligent as people; they just haven't taken it as far yet.
 

Zakyath

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Besides people, they appear to have one, if not the, most advanced forms of vocal communication ever observed. This, apparently, is at least borderline language, and the concept of organized and vocalized language is by far the most advanced thing humanity has ever accomplished. Language is the absolute underlying basis for every technology our species has been capable of inventing. In the event that a dolphin is capable of even a basic form of language with other dolphins, then they are about as intelligent as people; they just haven't taken it as far yet.
How can you even compare the most basic, inane form of communication with human communication? it's like saying snails are about as fast as tigers, just because they are capable of moving. there's a huge gap you're ignoring.
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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No, there is just you ignoring the clear intelligence of cetaceans and using shitty and irrelevant similes in an attempt to poorly enforce the kind of argument that I would only have excepted from Cheshire. Though... you are the next best competition for the position of Cheshire, so it does kind of make sense. Humans are not the only beings capable of intelligence on this planet; to ignore that there is an entire, largely unexplored world under water that is just as likely to have a dominantly intelligent species as the surface is just fucking ignorance and stupidity. Where do you think humanity came from? Water based animals have been around far, far longer than intelligent humanity, or even surface dwelling mammals, came to into the most basic of existence. They have had a hell of a lot more time to evolve. I am not the one ignoring anything, with the possible exception of future responses from you.
 

Zakyath

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Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's rubbish.
I never said it was rubbish, I said it was nowhere near as advanced as human communication. you have no proof whatsoever to suggest that dolphins are about as smart as humans.

No, there is just you ignoring the clear intelligence of cetaceans and using shitty and irrelevant similes in an attempt to poorly enforce the kind of argument that I would only have excepted from Cheshire. Though... you are the next best competition for the position of Cheshire, so it does kind of make sense. Humans are not the only beings capable of intelligence on this planet; to ignore that there is an entire, largely unexplored world under water that is just as likely to have a dominantly intelligent species as the surface is just fucking ignorance and stupidity. Where do you think humanity came from? Water based animals have been around far, far longer than intelligent humanity, or even surface dwelling mammals, came to into the most basic of existence. They have had a hell of a lot more time to evolve. I am not the one ignoring anything, with the possible exception of future responses from you.
It is not likely that there is any kind of intelligence under water that can rival human intelligence. Hell, the fact that humans could develop such advanced intellects was unlikely.

Anyways, you make a lot of claims but you have no evidence to back it up. And you dare insult my reasoning, when you make the most basic mistakes yourself?

And to top it all off, you're putting words in my mouth. I did NOT say humans are the only beings capable of intelligence on this planet.

You see intelligence is not something you either have or you don't, it's not just in black and white. Intelligence is a huge continuum. All I'm saying is that dolphins aren't as close to humans in that continuum as the phrase "dolphins are smart" might lead you to believe.
 

KaerfNomekop

Swim, fishies. Swim through the veil of steel.
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I never said it was rubbish, I said it was nowhere near as advanced as human communication. you have no proof whatsoever to suggest that dolphins are about as smart as humans.
Same difference - if you can't understand it, how can you say that it's not more advanced? It's not likely that we can rank their intelligence or communicative ability on a human scale, which is why they're being granted "non-human" personhood. The logic behind it is that they're intelligent enough to be considered deserving of rights.

Also I never claimed that dolphins were as smart as humans. That's an assumption on your part.
 

Accname

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Ignore varyne, he is a big mouth but doesnt know much actually. He just likes to pretend.
 

Zakyath

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Same difference - if you can't understand it, how can you say that it's not more advanced? It's not likely that we can rank their intelligence or communicative ability on a human scale, which is why they're being granted "non-human" personhood. The logic behind it is that they're intelligent enough to be considered deserving of rights.

Also I never claimed that dolphins were as smart as humans. That's an assumption on your part.
no you didn't, but nyph and varine did compare dolphins to humans, so my comments were obviously directed at them specifically.

and regarding their allegedly superior language skills - the burden of proof is on you. there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they are more advanced - in fact, the evidence we have suggests that their communication is basic and inane compared to human communication.

what I originally said, and I still stand by, is that claiming that dolphins are smart is misleading since they are not smart compared to humans, in fact they are less intelligent than us. when a scientist says that an animal is smart, he's of course comparing it to other less intelligent animals. but as always in the case of journalism, words, phrases and even evidence gets taken out of context.
 

KMilz

You can change this now in User CP.
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The worst part of this argument is that no one really knows what the fuck they're talking about. Our understanding of where humans derive their intelligence from is limited enough - we don't know what sort of direct impact brain size and structure might play or why different regions developed in the way they did compared to other animals 'similar' to humans. A lot of the studies done on dolphin brains is to help better understand how our own brains work, and a lot of what we've learned is practically speculation. We know that they have the second greatest brain-to-body ratio amongst animals (people being first), and that several regions of their brain are developed to a greater degree or are comparable in size to people's. We know that the Wernicke's area of their brains are well developed, which is the area of the brain that understands language, so it seems safe to assume that they could develop an advanced form of communication rivaled only by our own.

And Zakyath, the reason you're getting so much grief over this is because of your original post - sure, they aren't as smart as people... if they were, they'd continue acting smarter and more effectively with each generation due to the passing of knowledge, which may happen to a limited extent but obviously not in a major way. But to compare them next to rocks or apples, something that doesn't even possess a brain? That's entirely unfair. There's enough evidence of their intelligence to consider them the second smartest creature on the planet. Why do you want to take that from them?
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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Holy crap "Even scientists say they are more intelligent then chimpanzees"

Dolphins are almost as clever as humans - so treat them like people, say scientists
Dolphins are so intelligent they should be given the same status as humans, scientists are recommending. The aquatic mammals are the world's second brightest creatures after humans - leapfrogging chimpanzees who have been pushed down to third in the cleverness stakes. Experts say it is now time for dolphins to be treated as 'non-human persons' after research showed their brains have many features associated with high intelligence.

They claim it is cruel to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks, or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way every year. A study carried out by Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, used MRI scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare them to primates.

She said: 'Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size.'The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin interactions.'

Professor Marino found that the cerebral cortex and the neocortex of bottlenose dolphins were so large that 'the anatomical ratios that assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brain'.

Read Moar Here.
Study: Dolphins can problem solve like humans
A dog may be man's best friend, but dolphins can imitate human actions, and even how they solve problems.When a dolphin has one of its senses blocked, it can use other senses to mimic a human's movements, according to a recent study.

A bottlenose dolphin named Tanner was blindfolded and instructed to mimic the actions of a trainer in the water with him. When Tanner wasn't able to use sight to figure out the movement, he switched to another technique: emit sounds, listen to the echo and interpret the resulting sound waves. This ability _ known as echolocation _ allowed Tanner to replicate movements by the trainer, such as spinning in the water
Read Moar Here.
 

Zakyath

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And Zakyath, the reason you're getting so much grief over this is because of your original post - sure, they aren't as smart as people... if they were, they'd continue acting smarter and more effectively with each generation due to the passing of knowledge, which may happen to a limited extent but obviously not in a major way. But to compare them next to rocks or apples, something that doesn't even possess a brain? That's entirely unfair. There's enough evidence of their intelligence to consider them the second smartest creature on the planet. Why do you want to take that from them?
that was obviously a hyperbole. well, or so I thought...

I'm not saying they're not smart for non-human animals - I'm saying that people are making too much of a fuzz whenever evidence is presented that animals have some measure of intelligence.
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
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That there is a single star in this universe is unlikely. The statistical percentage of that happening this far, far below the evolution of any kind of remotely intelligent life that ever has or ever will exist. For life to exist under the ocean with remotely comparable intelligence is far more likely than even the existence of life outside of the water; every part of my, your, and every other person's growth originated based clearly and explicitly on that of fish and other water-breathing animals. Life under water has existed for thousands, if not millions, of years longer than the first animal EVER stepped foot upon solid earth on this planet; if anything, the likelihood for there to be significantly intelligence life underwater far exceeds that of the mere concept of humanity. You are only displaying ignorance of evolution and the history of this world by denying that; everything that will ever naturally exist on this planet, including you, evolved without air. You, as a fetus, had the same functions of a gill on a fish, and here you are (admittedly my belief of your intelligence is rapidly waning, however you seem to be able to read and write, which is more than the general animal); capable of intelligence, yet denying that such a thing can evolve underwater.

This is stupidity.
 
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