Evolution Discussion

[Mind]

Speaking about aliens, it is probable that we are originating from other planets.

The chance that amoebae were formed and managed to survive before the existence of dinosaurs, while the earth was still a hellish inferno, is supernaturally low. The little water of the Oceans which was not evaporated by lava and intense heat, was boiling. Extraordinarily sufficiently evolved beings could survive the conditions on earth then, but no simple amoebae.

In the relatively short period between the birth of the dinosaurs and the first moment the conditions on earth were sufferable to amoebae, it would have been extremely improbable that amoebae were shaped on earth.

It is possible that meteors which landed in the sea contained extraterrestrial amoebae.

 

[Cyclical]

You know, I feel like I might be able to contribute something to this.

While I was at college we did an experiment. Basically, we combined compounds similar to that of the primordial "soup" (get a spoon) of the Earth. Put them all in a test tube and shook it up. We then tested it for the presence of DNA. The sample turned blue; no dice.

Don't ask me what the compunds were - I'm not a biologist, so I don't remember.

The Bunsen burners were turned up so that the flame was invisible at the bottom, and blue at the top. Sufficient to burn the flesh right off your finger. We took our little test tube full of Earth juice and waved it through the base of the flame - to replicate a lightning strike. A very short blast of extreme heat.

The sample was then tested again for the presence of DNA. And guess what? Damndest thing - the sample turned purple. Dead on.

Sorry, but that's one more bit of hard, testable evidence that life arose at random, than I've ever seen in favor of a magical man in the sky.

Seriously, it's somewhat silly to say "There's SO little evidence for evolution" and then support religion, of all things.

Have you ever seen any testable evidence for that?

 

[Mind]

If I understood your description of this experiment, which I doubt, then the experiment was nonsensical. Could you please explain it again?

 

[Cyclical]

The basic jist of it is this:

We placed the chemicals which were present 5 billion years ago in Earth's "seas", if you will, and tested said chemicals for the presence of the acids which comprise a DNA structure. They tested negative.

The compounds were then exposed to a brief blast of extreme heat - to simulate a lightning strike, since geophysicists have concluded that there was much lightning on primordial Earth, much the way there is on Venus or Jupiter.

After this they were tested again for the presence of the specific acids found in DNA - and they were present. So, being "cooked" changed the compounds from inorganic to organic.

From there, the probability that they will align in the correct way to create DNA structures - and eventually the amoeba you often refer to (even though paramecium came first ) - increases dramatically, lending credence to the theory that life, in fact, can arise at random under the right circumstances.

In that vein, has anyone heard about the probe that's being sent to the Europa, the moon of Jupiter which is believed to have water, deep-sea vents, and similar chemistry to primordial Earth? What do you think the religious reaction would be if we found life on other planets? Kind of a big blow to the "God wubbed us so much that he gave us the whole galaxy to ourselves" theory, eh?

For some interesting articles, Google search: jupiter probe europa

And hey, speaking of experiments: What's the verdict on all those experiments to prove God?

What? There aren't any? But... Whyt not? Surely if people are going to base their life around an entity, they'd want to be certain it's there, right?

Right?

 

[XXXconanXXX]

Cyclical has good point. What WOULD happen if we did find life on other planets?

The best sense I can make of it is that God created us in his own image, so why do we have ot be the only ones? If you think scientifically, we don't have any intellegent beings in this Solar System that are smarter than us, if there werew, then they would've contacted us by now. There might be others far, far away from here but there wouldn't be any way of us contacting them right now as our technology isn't advanced enough. So the way I look at it is god crated us in his image, that's not saying we're the only ones he created. Maybe he created some aliens in a distant galaxy that were like us.

That makes you think, we would most likely not go to war with them, as it would create world wide panic and distress. They'd probably think like us, and we would probably try to make a deal by sharing technology and such. Hey, but maybe I'm wrong, we could be destroyed tomorrow by a huge meteor from some alien dudes across the solar system.

 

[Mind]

Originally posted by Cyclical
In that vein, has anyone heard about the probe that's being sent to the Europa, the moon of Jupiter which is believed to have water, deep-sea vents, and similar chemistry to primordial Earth? What do you think the religious reaction would be if we found life on other planets? Kind of a big blow to the "God wubbed us so much that he gave us the whole galaxy to ourselves" theory, eh?

If I'm correct, the entire surface of Europa is ice. I believe that the temperature on Europa is -273,15 °C, the absolute zero point, since it is very far from the sun. Warmth is the vibration of molecules, thus life can impossibly be shaped, let alone survive, on Europa.

Originally posted by XXconanXXX
There might be others far, far away from here but there wouldn't be any way of us contacting them right now as our technology isn't advanced enough. So the way I look at it is god crated us in his image, that's not saying we're the only ones he created. Maybe he created some aliens in a distant galaxy that were like us.

How haughty to believe that we are, indirectly, superior descendants of a divine, omnipotent entity.

The human race, in my opinion, is still far from superior. I am not a disguised extraterrestrial being which was sent to this planet to investigate the human society and is now freely judging it.

I wouldn't doubt that there is extraterrestrial intelligence in the universe. The chance that life in shaped coincidentally is very low, but the universe is unimaginably large.

Originally posted by XXconanXXX
That makes you think, we would most likely not go to war with them, as it would create world wide panic and distress. They'd probably think like us, and we would probably try to make a deal by sharing technology and such. Hey, but maybe I'm wrong, we could be destroyed tomorrow by a huge meteor from some alien dudes across the solar system.

I'm certain that, one day, our race will negotiate with ancient, extraterrestrial intelligent life forms which are endlessly more powerful and technologically advanced than we are. In time, they would simply assimilate our minor, insignificant civilization; We will simply become part of their civilization.

 

[Cyclical]

If I'm correct, the entire surface of Europa is ice. I believe that the temperature on Europa is -273,15 °C, the absolute zero point, since it is very far from the sun. Warmth is the vibration of molecules, thus life can impossibly be shaped, let alone survive, on Europa.

You're exactly right about the surface of Europa. But try Googling those strings I suggested - some of the more current information is interesting. There are deep-water vents which have created a sub-surface ocean - that's liquid water being heated. Apparently this was found by the Galileo probe. There's a new mission being organized - Grumman has the contract - to further investigate Eurpoa. They wouldn't waste the money, I believe, if they didn't think they'd find anything.

I'm certain that, one day, our race will negotiate with ancient, extraterrestrial intelligent life forms which are endlessly more powerful and technologically advanced than we are.

Run! The Protoss are coming!

In time, they would simply assimilate our minor, insignificant civilization; We will simply become part of their civilization.

Run! The Zerg are coming!

I'm only joking, Mind. In truth, I think there's probably a lot correct about your statements. I certainly hope that all we find are races more advanced than us.

Woe betide any less advanced civilizations we might find. Before you know it, Generalissimo George Bush would be trying to spread FREEDOM(tm) to all of those poor, oppressed, xenomorphic sources of cheap labor and resources.

But that's another can of worms.

 

[XXXconanXXX]

How haughty to believe that we are, indirectly, superior descendants of a divine, omnipotent entity.

I'm a moron, but let's see if I can decipher this correctly. In other words, you say "How stupid is it to beleive that we are created from a superior being".

From your statements, you seem to not beleive in any divine being (I'm not going to use big ass words as it doesn't make me look any more intellectual when I throw around words I have no clue of what they mean) at all? How do you suppose everything got here in the first place? If you look at something as advanced and complcated as the smallest flower, something like that could not be created at random from random molecules that by some miracle formed that. I'm not here to judge your religion, as you have been doing to mine.

 

[Mind]

I'm a moron, but let's see if I can decipher this correctly. In other words, you say "How stupid is it to beleive that we are created from a superior being".

Apologies for my inability to express myself correctly. Allow me to reformulate my sentence.

How proud to believe that we are God's image, and therefor are superior beings.

From your statements, you seem to not beleive in any divine being (I'm not going to use big ass words as it doesn't make me look any more intellectual when I throw around words I have no clue of what they mean) at all? How do you suppose everything got here in the first place? If you look at something as advanced and complcated as the smallest flower, something like that could not be created at random from random molecules that by some miracle formed that. I'm not here to judge your religion, as you have been doing to mine.

I didn't judge your theory of our existence, but contradicted it.

You do not believe that life was shaped by coincidence because that sounds to miraculous, but believe that an almighty wizard simply clapped his hands, causing it to be born.

Woe betide any less advanced civilizations we might find. Before you know it, Generalissimo George Bush would be trying to spread FREEDOM(tm) to all of those poor, oppressed, xenomorphic sources of cheap labor and resources.

We could be an example of those less advanced civilizations.

 

[SD_Ryoko]

[

I'm not here to judge your religion, as you have been doing to mine.

I think that argument is irrelevant. Both sides could say their beliefs are being attacked.

Even the thread title itself is the same way. Participating in this thread IS and argument for your belief, so best not to criticize one side for doing the same.

In summary, the debate itself is the entire reason for this thread.

Secondly, the point of the thread is useless. I can't convince you to believe in evolutionism, and you can't convince me to believe in your god. Simple as that.

No matter what you can or can't prove in this topic, some things remain fact. The catholic church molested / raped many young boys, and still does, just like a private 'ring' of namba followers. Alcoholics attend Sunday mass, then beat their wife when they go home. Bad people I'm related to go to church and pretend to be the nicest sociable person. Private schools force you to believe in things, whether you believe them or not, and you lie to yourself for years just to make it through school. Creationists shun family members who don't agree, yet we don't care what people believe.

 

[Mind]

Secondly, the point of the thread is useless. I can't convince you to believe in evolutionism, and you can't convince me to believe in your god. Simple as that.

I do not seek to convince others that my beliefs are right, but I wish to share them with others.

 

[Cyclical]

We could be an example of those less advanced civilizations.

Right you are, boyo. And after all the human race has done to itself, could you really blame any other race? But that's getting a bit too philosophical for what this thread is about.

I can't convince you to believe in evolutionism, and you can't convince me to believe in your god. Simple as that.

It really is too bad that faith had to go and stick its messy, un-testable, un-provable point of view into what scientists are doing. Sometimes, and I advise all the faithful here to think about this, it's necessary to step back and question things you're told to accept as true. "Why" is, after all, the most dangerous word in the English language.

The Church, historically, has resisted science on everything, even after it was proven and taken as fact. Was it Van Leeuwenhoek who suggested that the Earth was not the center of the universe, and was promptly called a heretic by the Church? For after all, the argument went, the Bible clearly states that God so loved his creation that he created for them this place - how could anything be more important than humanity? Yet time proved them wrong, as it has on the planets, on the location of heaven and hell, on the shape of the world - and as it doubtlessly will on evolution. That's why I'm pretty much content to sit back and let people think what they want on this one. Science is actively finding evidence, building a case, and making ready a provable conclusion. What is the Church doing? Saying 'La la la, we can't hear you'. One of those is better equipped for the future than the other.

To say you don't believe in evolution because of the lack of proof is just fine - until you then go on and treat God as established fact. Cos really, I can't think of much that's less provable then the "magical man in the sky" theory.

But again, say what you want. Time is on Science's side. The Church has an opportunity now to embrace the future and make itself compatible with the coming age - by saying that the Bible is open to interpretation, and can't, with any common sense, be taken literally. Or it can stand in the way like Greenpeace members who chain themselves to trees, and be cast aside as irrelevant and stubborn.

I, personally, don't see why there needs to be all the animosity over this whole issue. The problem is not the Church itself. While I, myself, don't subscribe to that belief, if you think it makes you a better person then go for it. But fundamentalism - that is a problem. Because when you start taking as literal law a document that's 2,000 years old, and has been translated and re-translated by kings to serve their whims, then you run a very real risk of being led astray into something that has nothing to do with the beliefs of a pacifist who was nailed to a cross.

 

[XXXconanXXX]

Sigh, I knew it was a bad idea to get religion involved into a site that has nothing to do with it and a site visited by many different people from all over the world.

What's the point of this thread? To discuss evolution? Well, discussing is when you put your point out and listen to others opinions. This thread has turned from a discussion into a thread where you come, give your opinion out, completely ignore what everyone else is saying or at least keep arguing against it and trying to preach your beleifs without taking in their opinions. It has turned into a place to take people's opinion's, turn it against them, and find a way to fit it into something that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

This thread has turned from a nice discussion about evolution into an argument about religions.

I'm taking myself out of this, as I've already had my words turned against me.

I'm not saying I'm not doing it too, so don't call me a hippocrate and use what I've said against me.


So, have fun arguing about religions and trying to preach to these people who are just going to throw it back at you and sa your completely wrong and try to convince you otherwise.

 

[Mind]

This thread has turned from a discussion into a thread where you come, give your opinion out, completely ignore what everyone else is saying or at least keep arguing against it and trying to preach your beleifs without taking in their opinions.

You are spontaneously contradicting yourself; You just said that anything said here is discussed and ignored simultaneously.

It has turned into a place to take people's opinion's, turn it against them, and find a way to fit it into something that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

I understand your frustration. We are, only vaguely consciously, removing a source of hope and trust from you.

I apologise for my ignorance.

However, as you must admit, there is nothing wrong with discussing religion.

 

[SD_Ryoko]

Heh, myabe we should debate issue #1 instead; perhaps it would offend less people.

 

[XXXconanXXX]

I understand your frustration. We are, only vaguely consciously, removing a source of hope and trust from you.

I'm not offended, I honestly don't really care. It's just making me mad that this conversation has leaked into other conversations that have othing to do with it. Some people seem to be getting mad, and I don't mind at all DISCUSSING this topic, but it's turned into a place to preach your beleifs and ignore other opinions.

 

[Mind]

That's untrue. We discuss eachothers beliefs, and compare them with those of ourselves.

May you explain why? Pardon, but you do sound arrogant, convincing yourself that denouncing Evolution is like denouncing that grass is green.

The pot is calling the kettle black, as the following quote proofs.

Yep, I knew it, you're insanely stubborn and too blind to know it.

Yes, the kettle, which is, in this case, referring to me, is also conscious that it is black.

I do ponder the possibility that religion is correct; I am not stubborn.

What? I don't understand quite what your stating, but I will admit that we all have a similar design and therefore look similar.

Is it not coincidental that God made all species on earth so similar? Perhaps you should not belief the contents of the bible so fanatically. The Theory of Evolution doesn't contradict the existence of God.

If you throw random bits of inanimate objects into an infinitely lasting-long Earthquake, those little bits will not form life. At the very least, they can conjoin together in small parts before breaking up again, because it is during an eternity-lasting Earthquake, which keeps shaking and eventually destroying any bondage the parts have with one another.

"Bits of inanimate objects" are not equal to molecules.

Also, I explained that it is probable that we are originating from space, since the earth was still an inferno before the birth of life.

And, as I've stated before, oh stubborn one, that Matter and Energy do NOT create life! Look at robots for goodness sake! They don't have a soul and can't think, and they're made out of bloody energy and bloody matter! Of course, this is a bad example, since robots are created by humans and so, have a purpose. I should say, a better example may be a rock. Take a rock and charge it with energy or anything you can find really, the rock will not roll itself along, even if it has energy it can use. Take a corpse and charge it with energy, you will find that it will not budge. Even though it contains the design to walk and talk and think, it will not. Something has left the being, and it is not energy! A being who died from a disease should be rid of the bacteria in time, and still has the blood and organs, if they're kept from decaying, should live with energy put in, no?

You just said that every bit of matter, no matter its composition, has a soul. If you was aware of the incomprehensible complexity of the brains, you would realise how ridiculous your rhetoric is.

As the above example, bacteria can not come out of inanimate objects, no matter how long you wait. And monkeys or fish will never come out of bacteria, no matter how long you WAIT! If it's a friggin minor upgrade, it has a FRIGGIN MINOR EFFECT, and minor effects DO NOT AND NEVER WILL bunch up to create a major effect and a major upgrade.

I assume mathematics is not your strongest aspect?

How much is thousand times one?

Please tell me how Evolutionists can date these things past 5000-50000? Carbon dating only goes back that far since

Our body radiates C18. After we die, the amount of C18 our bodies radiate decreases gradually. Eventually, however, after 100.000.000, the amount of C18 becomes to small to estimate.

Well, you're being stubborn for the moment and believing you know quite a bit,…

Stop acting so hostile.

1. Where did all of our starting ground (Matter, Space, and the laws of Inertia and etc.) come from?

Already answered.

2. How did matter get so perfectly organized (the chances are way too small to point for it to take only 5 billion years, if at all)?

Already answered.

3. Where did the energy come from (you, of course, need some to bring life, to an extent, alive)?

Already answered.

4. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter? I know this is asking a lot, but you should be able to answer this.

Already answered.

5. With what did the first cell/organism capable of sexual reproduction reproduce with? There was asexual, but you run into problems when you get to sexual. There will never be two organism holding the same exact genes that lets them survive AND reproduce.

Already answered.

6. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? It should just live the good life, right?

This is irrelevant to the subject.

We, humans, know how we are capable of reproducing since the late nineteenth age. How would simple animals know that?

Plants reproduce automatically.

7. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? Turns out you need a DNA injection to create most of your helpful changes.

You mean: "How do species mutate?" I'm no geneticus, but I know that the genes of the very vulnerable embryo's can easily be deformed.

9. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true? It surely would've broken down from it's increasing fragile likeness. Think of a glass bowl that you kept dropping on the ground. If, as you're suggesting, this Evolution bowl wouldn't break on the very first drop and never get back together again, your bowl will break anyway as the mainframe breaks down. You need to evolve many "minor" changes to accompany the changes. As I repeat myself, a fish needs gills, and bacteria doesn't have gills. A fish needs a complex blood flowing system along with the blood. And of course, bacteria doesn't have this nor anything else. At the VERY least, when the bacteria decides not to create a new immunity but rather a useless organ that would somehow come into use later, why would it stay? I don't suppose a cancered individual would give birth to a baby who had cancer, right?

Do you mean: "How are 'fragile' genes capable of mutating without breaking?" Genes are not brittle at all; They are made of proteins.

I'll leave the other questions. I've wasted enough time.

 

[SD_Ryoko]

I'm not offended, I honestly don't really care. It's just making me mad that this conversation has leaked into other conversations that have othing to do with it. Some people seem to be getting mad, and I don't mind at all DISCUSSING this topic, but it's turned into a place to preach your beleifs and ignore other opinions.

You can see by Minds post previous to this one, evolutionists have been under assult since this topic started.

John Edwards never referes to god, heaven, or souls, just 'energy'.

Apparently the man is acurate enough to make people cry full blown tears on television.

And if the audience was in on it, I'm sure the truth would have leaked and been ALL over the news.

And you don't have to submit any information to get a hold of a ticket, so I don't feel they backround check you like that.

God could just be a higher power or more advanced race.

Perhaps this race or being didn't 'make' us, or anything. Just the earth. Then we evolved on our own.

Would you still worship and give credit? Just for making the earth? People developed the start of my city, and the terrain all around it - and I don't even feel like saying thank you. I pay to live here anyway.

 

[Mind]

Interesting.

Humanity has discovered how to genetically manipulate life. We are capable of interfering with nature's creation, to augment and modify any being's shape and capacities.

In future, we will, most probably, be able to modify planets so that they can be inhabited. This is called "terrasformation".
Because the atmosphere on Mars is extremely thin, which causes the one half of the planet to be extremely hot, and the other half extremely cold.
Scientists are planning to unleash tons of CO2 on Mars in far future, creating a greenhouse effect.

Good thing I'm not in the religious argument anymore--is it still running? I left because I'm done in getting my point across that Evolution is a religion, but what the hey.

religion

n 1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" [syn: faith, religious belief] 2: institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" [syn: faith]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

 

[EvoStudent]

Evolution

Hello-

I am a PhD student in Evolution & Anatomy and this website happened to come up while I was doing some research. Some of you sound very confused so I have some comments, but if you really want to understand what happens you need to go to the library and find some books or journals on:

(1) Comparative anatomy... for about 200 years we have been studying the skeletons and soft anatomy of fish, reptiles, birds, marsupials, mammals, and scientists have compiled lists of characters that unite certain groups. Teeth are particularly informative because each species of animal has a special arrangement of teeth and looking at the differences between the teeth of two animals can tell us how related they are. Here is website for a comparison of some rodent teeth ----
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/topics/mammal_anatomy/murine_teeth.html

and you can search the rest of the website for photos of dog and fox, cat and lion, baboon and human teeth to compare them. Teeth are under genetic control and we are learning more and more about how changes in DNA could change tooth shape and type.

(2) Paleontology... I am specialised in Mammal Evolution, so I can give a few examples of transitional forms in the fossil record. The evolution of horses in North America is an excellent example because the transition from a 5 toed animal to a 1 toed animal is clearly preserved in hundreds of fossils. These fossils are dated based on the stratigraphic rock beds that they are found in, and paleontologists work closely with geologists to get accurate dates. Another transition visible in the fossil record is that of ancient reptiles to the first most primitive mammals. The reptile skull is far more complex than that of the mammal, and 2 bones that make up part of the reptile's lower jaw (the quadrate and articular) can be traced in fossils as they change in size and then become the incus and the malleus which are 2 tiny bones in the mammalian ear.

This website lists some other transitions:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part1b.html#mamm

(3) Developmental biology and embryology... from observations of and tests on developing mouse embryos we are learning details about the sequence of events that occurs before birth. We know about the genes that control important aspects of development, such as the HOX genes that control segmentation of the embryo (they set up the brain, the vertebral column, bones of the arms and legs etc). We are sequencing the HOX genes of many organisms to compare these fundamental genes to figure out how changes in them can change the order of development and potentially create new species.

(4) Animal breeding... We "created" all kinds of dogs by selectively breeding wolves for certain characteristics. We also created all kinds of goldfish, fancy pigeons, and domesticated cows and sheep and horses by selective breeding.
The amazing range of genetic variation contained in one species is truly demonstrated by what we have done to these creatures by instituting artificial selection (different from natural selection).

As you can see, there is still plenty of work to be done in this field, but I challenge you to find a scientific field that claims to be proven completely true… we are constantly updating our knowledge in every field. Keep thinking about it -- and look at the animals of the world

Regards
-G