Evolution Discussion

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ThE-eNiGmA

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Why havent amoeba evolved? They have, but at this point, they don't really have to. When something occupies a niche, they have less pressure to evolve, less determining factors to select the fittest.
 
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lordloki

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This means you have to get down and yell at that ameoba... say "EVOLVE DAMN YOU!!! OR I WILL REPLACE YOU WITH CHLOROPHYL!!!" maybe it will develop a complex and hop to it.

You can prove Darwin wrong, just look at pop-culture. :D
 

Mind

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ThE-eNiGmA said:
Why havent amoeba evolved? They have, but at this point, they don't really have to. When something occupies a niche, they have less pressure to evolve, less determining factors to select the fittest.

Mutations occur purely coincidentally. If the evolution is disadvantageous, the mutated entity will survive.

This is my last post in this thread: Those who regard the Theory of Evolution with arrogant disregard despite all evidences are simply far too stubborn, narrow-minded and short-sighted to be convinced.

The similarity of the specimens on earth, the properties of children which none of their parents had, the handicaps of some people, the fact that we manipulate the deoxyribonucleic acid of certain specimens - causing them to evolve artificially, and all other evidence indicate that this theory is correct. Yet, they are stubbornly rejected by some…

I'm very sorry for my arrogant attitude, but I'm quite certain that, this time, it is justified.
 

Malice-

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Evolution by modern science cannot be proven, and honestly I don't think it, or any religion, will ever be proven. What people choose to belive as an individual will be argued for eternity in my opinion. We don't have interdimensional travel and more than likley never will; and without this we cannot gain enough information to prove any religion. As far as evolution goes, there are too many LARGE missing links to ever piece it together. I mean yeah, some people can claim the obvious proof like the traits we have in common with modern primeates, but still, think about everything we don't have in common with them. Think of the common question, "Why didn't they evolve as well?" Then someone may argue, "Well it's not them we evolved from it's a different original primeate. I don't know, believe what you want, nothing can be proven so in my opinion these arguments are interesting but will never end.
 

XXXconanXXX

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Oh my god, Ace and now Mind is back. Dunno if your staying or jsut to njump back into this discussion, but welcome back, bro! :D
 
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ThE-eNiGmA

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(Darn it, Conan, I was beaten)
I am just going to point off a possible flaw in that last statement...why didn't primates evolve as well? A simple answer is that maybe they didn't need to. Evolution is not something that occurs at a steady rate, nor is it guaranteed to happen. It is spontaneous, random change. If there are environmental pressures that would favor a particular trait *should it come up* then that trait would have a good chance of spreading around and becoming part of the gene pool. The assumption is that if we evolved into thinking beings, all life on Earth should have thinking beings in mind somewhere down the evolutionary path. Wrong. We are a cosmic accident... and that does not bother me at all. At least I am here to think about it...
 

The Helper

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Welcome back to both of you guys. I don't know if you two are planning on staying but I just wanted to say that you are both sorely missed and you are welcome here anytime. Hope you guys decide to stick around.
 

Malice-

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Malice- said:
Evolution by modern science cannot be proven, and honestly I don't think it, or any religion, will ever be proven. What people choose to belive as an individual will be argued for eternity in my opinion. We don't have interdimensional travel and more than likley never will; and without this we cannot gain enough information to prove any religion. As far as evolution goes, there are too many LARGE missing links to ever piece it together. I mean yeah, some people can claim the obvious proof like the traits we have in common with modern primeates, but still, think about everything we don't have in common with them. Think of the common question, "Why didn't they evolve as well?" Then someone may argue, "Well it's not them we evolved from it's a different original primeate. I don't know, believe what you want, nothing can be proven so in my opinion these arguments are interesting but will never end.

Enigma, if you look at the bolded text, you see that i noted your argument. Like I said, this could be argued back and forth eternally. Personally I don't think it will ever end.
 

Shadowy Fear

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IT ISNT EVOLUTION NOR CREATIONISM IT IS SPONTANEOUS GENERATION OMFG!

:p

Oh, and malice, if you could go back in time (create a supermassive black hole about the size of our solar system, fly through one end, then twist the end you just came out of around itself and VOILA) and prove . . . everything :p. Or nothing, if you're going for the disproving - MEH! :p

I posted something like this in SSM, but that site got shut down methinks, so here it is: (btw Mind I'm totally with you on the narrow-mindedness, although that isn't always there fault; their parents may have forced it on them or they may have simply followed their example)

Humans have reduced the effect of evolution. This may be one reason so many people doubt it today (btw, I'm going to give a class speech [along with rest of classl nothing big] on what I say here :D). For example, take a look at medical hospitals and institutions; what do they do there? They save lives. Now lets analyze this a little more thoroughly; they save lives of people who caused a need for lives to be saved; if someone is born with a natural, terminal if not cured defect, and the hospital saves them, they may go on to spread their genes to others and the same problems may occur over and over. Hospitals give most people a fair shot, and in doing so utterly destroy the concept of natural selection. Now, I'm all for hospitals; I'm merely pointing out that they a severe limiting factor in natural selection, as those with genetic material that would otherwise have killed them are allowed to survive and reproduce, so that all of their genes are passed on; this accounts for all the variety, good or bad, that we have today.

As a side note, even LANGUAGES 'evolve' to a certain extent; take Latin, for example, the basis of French, English, and Spanish, of which those three, all with Latin roots, now cover all of North America and a lot of areas in Europe, as well as in South America. But LATIN itself is now EXTINCT -_- :p I mean really, who uses it anymore? It's kept alive because it is DEAD, used only for scientific purposes; it's equally neutral so that it doesn't provoke international hostilities or whatever :p. That is pretty sad, but think about it; language changes and adapts over time, starting from GA GA GLOOKA to "Tis it is, that on this forthright hour, we, the people, do declare ..." to (while testing :p)
XXconanXXX said:
r j0 rdy 2 get skooled?
I hope you see my point in this :>)

Anyway, we humans mix our genes so much that it is practically impossible for us to evolve much further; isolated areas adapt, but they never have the thousands of years it would take to become another species altogether. We help animals too. For instance, lets say a bat was born with a stumpy left wing. Some zoologist notices it flapping around in desperate, ever smaller circles one day and takes it back to his research station, where the at undergoes a series of surgical operations and comes out of it with a mechanical wing; all of the female bats think it is hot, and *Beep; Please Insert Tape Two* all of his little bat ... larvea? Chicks? Babies? Flying mousies? WHATEVER THEY'RE CALLED have slightly stumpy wings as well; potientally fatal genetic flaws are often corrected by human influence. Heck, a starving bear might wander into a campsite and eat the humans in their sleep, whereas a healthy bear might get his head stuck in a plastic bag :p.

Humans, with our relative longetivity, could never see the evolutionary process taking place on us; we have slowed it down too much.

My overall point is that human interference has considerably slowed down evolution, at least for us, in many places in the world; in Africa, where the humans aren't in a position to slow down evolution significantly, some types of bugs develop chemicals for piercing the think bark of trees, while those trees develop immunities to those bugs; a colony of ants develops an immunity to Raid; a germ strain becomes immune to the effects of a certain medication.

Hope you understand ;)
 
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ThE-eNiGmA

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I keep thinking of one of the best arguments for evolution...the increasing ineffectiveness of our antibiotics. As a rule, I avoid them, because too many people use them every time they so much as get a sniffle, and the medical community actually condoned this (funny enough, I rarely get sick...I think its all the pizza) Shadowy Fear, you just raised a point I have thought about for a long time, and I think you are absolutely right. But adding to it, we have evolved to the point where evolution slows down. It is hard not to notice our incredibly long period of youth. There is a long time between generations. Why? Because of our brains. Our brains may be our greatest strength, but its also a great weakness from a biological standpoint. It makes childbirth so much harder. Why do you think human mothers have so much difficulty birthing? Partly because of the unusual orientation of the reproductive organs, but also the difficulty of getting the head through. Even after birth, theres the long period of child raising. As children, we are not capable of independence...not most of us, anyway. Our brains just take too long to develop. Fortunately, we have used those brains to overcome our weaknesses, but they do exist nonetheless.
There are many unique traits that humans have that make us different than conventional primates, from the bipedal orientation to the orientation of female genitalia to males having the longest...I shall leave that up to your imaginations. We are essentially hairless on our bodies...but our headhair just doesnt stop growing. We grow hair on our faces in males, and that doesnt really stop growing too in many of us...I myself have had a full beard problem since I started highschool (I don't get a nickname like Jesus for nothing...though its pretty ironic) Anyway, there is too much evidence for evolution to just ignore it. Science tries to fit the facts, and it is the best explanation there is. We have progressed to a point where our explanations actually come with a reasonable degree of certainty, a far cry from the "caloric" theory.
 

Shadowy Fear

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Lets see them respond to THAT :p :D No seriously, I have a semi speech on Thursday and I want the Creationists opinions so I can be prepared :p. (btw, my above statement pretty much jsut showed that evolution is destructable --- uh oh :p). Can you guys come up with any good counter arguments? :>)
 

Mind

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Shadowy Fear said:
(btw Mind I'm totally with you on the narrow-mindedness, although that isn't always there fault; their parents may have forced it on them or they may have simply followed their example)

I was simply pointing out their mistakes, because they do not see them.

Shadowy Fear said:
Humans have reduced the effect of evolution.

Actually, humans still mutate; This process of evolution has not been decelerated at all: Nucleotides are still often deformed coincidentally.
 

Shadowy Fear

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Yes, but the process of natural selection has been slowed; variation still abounds, but I was pointing out that 'natural' selection's effect has been decreased.
 

DM Cross

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Oh please, natural selection no longer exists, in my mind. Medics have replaced it.

Think about it, the human race has litterally polluted it's own gene pool by not letting the virus' and diseases kill THEMSELVES off. If everyone with AIDS were to drop dead, right this second, without a chance of someone with it surviving, well guess what? No more AIDS! At least not for now, since I'm not clear on how it got started. But it would sure as hell slow the process down quite a bit. Same thing with Ebola and whatever.

People complain from time to time about overpopulation and disease, well there may be a REASON to the disease. Perhaps nature is trying to tell us "Hey, idiots, THOSE ARE THERE FOR A REASON!"

And ya know, while we're on this topic, you COULD argue the classification of human beings. Mammals, as far as I know, have ALWAYS adapted to their surroundings, without throwing the whole food chain and balance of nature out the window. This animal eats that, but then something else eats it. Just the way the world works. Humans don't do that, though. They move in, populate, and make the world fit THEIR needs, desires, etc. Human beings, in such an aspect, are a virus themselves, just an organic one.

Anyway, that's my "sick and disturbed" view on things. I call is realism, you can say what you want.
 

Shadowy Fear

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Lol, let's just hope you never become ruler of the world :rolleyes: ;) :)
Hehe, yes, humanity has polluted itself, and at the same time become ruler of the world, supposedly. Eventually, HOPEFULLY, our medicinal abilities will surpass the destructive antibodies of nature, and then docters, nurses, and surgeons everywhere will riot and burn down the hospials and all the medications, and maybe launch a nuke or two at New York or Tokyo or Beijing and send us all back to the Stone Age :rolleyes:
 

DM Cross

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Hey man, at least the world wouldn't be overpopulated, or up to it's you-know-what in disease! I mean, yeah, it's a horrible way to look at things, but it's also the realistic way.
 
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lordloki

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ok, I tried reading in like 2 posts and became totally bored and realized where this was going to end up..

So here are my thouhts.


1. Nothing. I repeat, NOTHING can be proven. Period, end of discussion.
Basis for #1
Do you exist? Cause you think? HA, what if you are some computer generated algorithm in some fantasy world for the entertainment of an ameoba like creature getting his kicks before bedtime? YOU DONT KNOW.

2. Good Idea's > Proven Beliefs
An Idea can be molded, changed adapted. A Belief is solid. Changing that belief can seriously screw with your head. Imagine tomorrow if christians were told that the catholic church said it was all a joke?

3. No one knows. Not one damn person on the face of the earth that ever existed in time or maybe ever will exist knows. This is the most endless of questions that has plagued mankind for millenea.

Lastly..

If you really want proof of something greater than yourself, talk a walk outside for a while and realize how small you are in the grand scheme of things. Think of how uncomprehensable the universe is, and how even more exponentially uncomprehensable one would have to be to create it. While this may make you feel insignificant, you may eventually find that your not the only one wondering the exact same thing.

People for whatever reason "Have" to believe in something greater than themselves. To be Humbled by it. To be fufilled by it. To feel comforted ... etc etc etc

Eventually, people will stop being children and find out who they are.

If you really are the type searching for answers, start by finding out what you are all about. Explore things you havent done before. Do things you think you cant anyway. You may find you learn about the one thing that's closest to you. And maybe understand why as small as you may be, how large you can become.

:D

P.S. Thanks for all the fish!
 

XXXconanXXX

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3. No one knows. Not one damn person on the face of the earth that ever existed in time or maybe ever will exist knows. This is the most endless of questions that has plagued mankind for millenea.

Just pointing this out:

You kinda contractied yourself, did you not?

If we don't know, how do we know if someone knows, or if they know if some one knows about them knowing about someone knowing? :p

Ack, I confused myself. :S
 

Mind

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lordloki said:
1. Nothing. I repeat, NOTHING can be proven. Period, end of discussion.

No sane mind ever claimed to know something for certain. Scientists are merely trying to indicate that their theories are correct.

lordloki said:
Basis for #1
Do you exist? Cause you think? HA, what if you are some computer generated algorithm in some fantasy world for the entertainment of an ameoba like creature getting his kicks before bedtime? YOU DONT KNOW.

Yet, if that is the case, we still need to find out as much as possible about this "fantasy world".

lordloki said:
If you really want proof of something greater than yourself, talk a walk outside for a while and realize how small you are in the grand scheme of things. Think of how uncomprehensable the universe is, and how even more exponentially uncomprehensable one would have to be to create it. While this may make you feel insignificant, you may eventually find that your not the only one wondering the exact same thing.

Are you suggesting that the staggering complexity of the universe "proves" the existence of a supernatural, perfect, omnipotent and omniscient being, which created the universe so flawed and chaotically?
 
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