How do you feel about map protecting?

[TheDamien]

Ever tried opening a protected map with an MPQ Editor? I did and guess what? You can't open it . If you tried and succeded, then it was a map with a poor protection.

However, a map can be unprotected and opened in a MPQ Editor, but that's forbidden to discuss here.

Burden of proof is on you for this one.

 

[Magentix]

Map protection using Vex Opt:

- Reduces map size significantly
- Reduces loading time significantly
- Keeps noobs from putting their name as creator of your map
- Keeps BNet safe(r) from a flood of "rigged" versions so people don't know which one is "real" any more


The excuse "it's rude because I want to learn" is bullshit.

I code advanced vJASS, if anyone would like any of my maps "for learning",
they'd probably not understand it anyhow, since people who DO know advanced vJASS can figure out themselves how I did things.

On top of that: I -always- put my email address in the F9 menu for if people want to contact me.

Using protection to keep noobs out of your maps + allow people who REALLY want to learn to email you = win.


EDIT:
That being said:
I have recently unprotected a map myself and am almost finished decoding all of the optimized JASS.
The map is Undead Assault II and I have permission from its creator -Illidan92- to do so, since he has
lost the original, unprotected copy.

So, in a way, protection kept the noobs out of his map, while experienced JASSers can still decode the map,
should things go bad, like it did with Undead Assault II.

Another example of Optimizing your map = win.

 

[monoVertex]

Burden of proof is on you for this one.

What do you mean? That I should prove that a protected map is not openable in an MPQ Editor?

 

[TheDamien]

What do you mean? That I should prove that a protected map is not openable in an MPQ Editor?

Yes. Warcraft itself must have access to the files within the .w3x/.w3m, so I find it hard to believe that this isn't a limitation of whatever MPQ editor you were using at the time.

Map protection using Vex Opt:

- Reduces map size significantly
- Reduces loading time significantly

Here you confuse two dissimilar concepts. Map optimization may have the side effect of making the map unopenable in the world editor, but it is quite a different thing from protection. I will attempt to supply two rough definitions:

Map protection is the deliberate attempt to stop players from changing, tampering with, or looking at a map in the world editor.

Map optimization is the process applied to a map to improve its overall performance, file size and playability.

It isn't always necessary to miss out on the benefits of optimization. It is perfectly possible to publicly release two versions of a map - one optimized and the other not - to get around this.

- Keeps noobs from putting their name as creator of your map
- Keeps BNet safe(r) from a flood of "rigged" versions so people don't know which one is "real" any more

Centralization and active map development can prevent both these things, and map protection is not completely effective at preventing the spread of rigged versions.

The excuse "it's rude because I want to learn" is bullshit.

I code advanced vJASS, if anyone would like any of my maps "for learning",
they'd probably not understand it anyhow, since people who DO know advanced vJASS can figure out themselves how I did things.

It is circular to say that something isn't suitable learning material on the basis that it has not yet been learned.

On top of that: I -always- put my email address in the F9 menu for if people want to contact me.

Using protection to keep noobs out of your maps + allow people who REALLY want to learn to email you = win.

What gives you the idea that people will email you if they "really" want to learn? What if you discontinue the map and begin to use a different email, what do they do then?

EDIT:
That being said:
I have recently unprotected a map myself and am almost finished decoding all of the optimized JASS.
The map is Undead Assault II and I have permission from its creator -Illidan92- to do so, since he has
lost the original, unprotected copy.

Another disadvantage of map protection.

So, in a way, protection kept the noobs out of his map, while experienced JASSers can still decode the map,
should things go bad, like it did with Undead Assault II.

You don't need to be an experienced Jasser to mess with a protected map. The people you really want to keep out the most are the people who will find it the easiest to get in, and they need not be intelligent or experienced.

 

[Magentix]

Here you confuse two dissimilar concepts. Map optimization may have the side effect of making the map unopenable in the world editor, but it is quite a different thing from protection. I will attempt to supply two rough definitions:

Map protection is the deliberate attempt to stop players from changing, tampering with, or looking at a map in the world editor.

Map optimization is the process applied to a map to improve its overall performance, file size and playability.

It isn't always necessary to miss out on the benefits of optimization. It is perfectly possible to publicly release two versions of a map - one optimized and the other not - to get around this.

The example I gave: UA2, is nearly unreleasable when not optimized.
Filesize/loading time would be too big.
When fully optimizing, map protection is an automatically added benefit.

Centralization and active map development can prevent both these things, and map protection is not completely effective at preventing the spread of rigged versions.

If I name my map "Undead Assault II.w3x", someone rigs a map and names it EXACTLY the same way: People joining his map will see the preview as if it were the real map and by the time they notice they're downloading, the map already got overwritten by the rigged version.
That's centralization for ya when you didn't protect your map...

It is circular to say that something isn't suitable learning material on the basis that it has not yet been learned.

I think it's safe to say 95%+ of all WC3 mappers doesn't know jack shit about interfaces, methods and keywords. So why should I leave my map unprotected (and thus way larger in filesize) for the perhaps 5% that could actually learn from my map?
(Although, if they know what interfaces, etc. are, they probably won't need my maps to learn from)

People should learn from thehelper.net and build up their own projects, not learn from what someone else wrote.

What gives you the idea that people will email you if they "really" want to learn? What if you discontinue the map and begin to use a different email, what do they do then?

- My email hasn't changed for ages
- Even if discontinued, you'd have to be a major cunt to not respond to someone asking you about a trigger.

Another disadvantage of map protection.

Correction: Another disadvantage of a HDD crash.
Optimization WILL NOT allow you to overwrite something, it always needs a new filename.

You don't need to be an experienced Jasser to mess with a protected map. The people you really want to keep out the most are the people who will find it the easiest to get in, and they need not be intelligent or experienced.

For adding so-called "cheat packs" you're right, but for example: UA2.
People unprotected it to give themselves good "save/load"-codes.
Only a true JASSer can find out where to change what to do so.

So to REALLY change the game (not just add cheats), you DO have to know JASS rather well.

 

[Vicboy]

Wow, I think Map Protection is necessary... I mean, ofcourse I want people to know how I did this and that, but other than that...

Its going to be dangerous uploading an unprotected map mainly because it might be edited to add cheats on.

I am not against Map Protection... Nor do I like doing it that much... Just gimme a way to have an unprotected map without the ability to add or edit anything in the map... I also use it to make my map slimmer...

So... Who gives a crap about people who wants to learn triggers? Its so simple to use and I doubt anyone can't do it...

Okay, take example DotA... Its soo popular that if it was unprotected, its bound to be edited from all 2 million who plays it.

 

[TheDamien]

The example I gave: UA2, is nearly unreleasable when not optimized.
Filesize/loading time would be too big.
When fully optimizing, map protection is an automatically added benefit.

Which is why publicly releasing two copies is the best solution for large maps.

If I name my map "Undead Assault II.w3x", someone rigs a map and names it EXACTLY the same way: [...]

I have seen this faked map preview before (on a protected map that used to be frequently faked) but people certainly did notice they were downloading, and it does not overwrite. Duplicate files are downloaded and given a new name in the form of *~[1,2..].

I think it's safe to say 95%+ of all WC3 mappers doesn't know jack shit about interfaces, methods and keywords. [...]
(Although, if they know what interfaces, etc. are, they probably won't need my maps to learn from)

Once again, this is circular. If they already knew these things, then they would have nothing to learn.

People should learn from thehelper.net and build up their own projects, not learn from what someone else wrote.

Some people learn best by example, why "should" they have to learn from a website rather than from real code?

- My email hasn't changed for ages
- Even if discontinued, you'd have to be a major cunt to not respond to someone asking you about a trigger.

You can not account for all circumstances, and you can not guarantee that curious mapmakers will always email you.

Correction: Another disadvantage of a HDD crash.
Optimization WILL NOT allow you to overwrite something, it always needs a new filename.

Hard drive crash or not, if the unoptimized map had been released publicly it would have been a cinch to recover.

For adding so-called "cheat packs" you're right, but for example: UA2.
People unprotected it to give themselves good "save/load"-codes.
Only a true JASSer can find out where to change what to do so.

So what does it matter if people make major changes to a map when it is so easy to add cheatpacks and otherwise mess with the map in that way? Your map is still being faked and using cheats people can still get unfair save/load codes without having to change the actual save/load triggers.

Okay, take example DotA... Its soo popular that if it was unprotected, its bound to be edited from all 2 million who plays it.

Even if all DotA players edited it, the map download is so centralized that no one would be playing the fake versions.

 

[Magentix]

Which is why publicly releasing two copies is the best solution for large maps.

Ok, seriously... what part of my previous two posts did you not understand?

The unoptimized map size is too big to be hostable on Battle.net.
There is a filesize limit to maps you can host on BNet, capiche?

Sheesh...


P.S.:
And, no offense, all your talk about "circular" is kinda bullshit, since if you don't know jack shit about coding in JASS,
you won't just "see the light" the second you open someone's map...
You still need to learn from tutorials at TheHelper first if you want to be at least half capable of
programming any non-fatally-crashing JASS.


Basically, you're telling us we should not decrease map size and loading time significantly,
just so a few people who actually want to learn from it (in comparison to the few thousands who just want to rig it) can open it.

Well, tough luck then.
If people really want to learn JASS, they'll start from scratch, just like we all did.
And if they truly are motivated, no way on earth they will be stopped in their learning process because we protect our maps...

 

[TheDamien]

Ok, seriously... what part of my previous two posts did you not understand?

The unoptimized map size is too big to be hostable on Battle.net.
There is a filesize limit to maps you can host on BNet, capiche?

Sheesh...

two (tū) pronunciation
n.

1. The cardinal number equal to the sum of 1 + 1.
2. The second in a set or sequence.

I'm really trying to spell it out for you here.

P.S.:
And, no offense, all your talk about "circular" is kinda bullshit, since if you don't know jack shit about coding in JASS,

Your logic is circular because it means that a thing is not suitable as learning material on the basis that it is not fully understood whereas not being fully understood is actually a precodition to a thing being suitable as learning material.

you won't just "see the light" the second you open someone's map...

I am not saying that aspiring mapmakers will instantly "see the light" upon looking at a map, only that it makes sense that people will find it easier to learn the tools, methods and techniques used in the creation of a particular map if they are given access to it.

You still need to learn from tutorials at TheHelper first if you want to be at least half capable of
programming any non-fatally-crashing JASS.

This is false and also irrelevant. Even if a person has read all the Jass and World Editor tutorials, they could still stand to learn a lot by looking at others' maps. Countless times I have wondered how a mapmaker has done a certain thing, and often I must search the various forums or invest time in trial and error to learn when it would have been so much simpler to look at the map and learn directly.

Basically, you're telling us we should not decrease map size and loading time significantly,
just so a few people who actually want to learn from it (in comparison to the few thousands who just want to rig it) can open it.

Ctrl+F this thread for "two versions".

Well, tough luck then.
If people really want to learn JASS, they'll start from scratch, just like we all did.

I sincerely hope that I am reading this incorrectly because it seems you are arguing against the distribution of knowledge.

And if they truly are motivated, no way on earth they will be stopped in their learning process because we protect our maps...

I am not saying that being unable to look at maps will stop people from learning Jass, only that being able to access a map will make the process of learning much faster and easier.

 

[Varine]

If people really want to learn JASS, they'll start from scratch, just like we all did.

So... distribution of knowledge not a cool thing anymore? Well, I guess that we shouldn't publish text books or anything anymore either. If the kids REALLY want to learn Geometry, they can start from scratch, just like Euclid did, right?

Map protection is kind of stupid, I think. I use map optimizers sometimes if the map is too big so that I can host it, but really they're pretty useless other than that. It's not like it's hard to get around the protection, anyway. Unless the entire thing is in GUI, then it can become a little bit of a problem.

And on a side note:

And if they truly are motivated, no way on earth they will be stopped in their learning process because we protect our maps...

I might just be some ignorrant, unfaithful douchebag in saying this, but why would someone be really so motivated to learn a programming language, one that's totally useless for anything but this one game, from scratch because everyone protected their maps and for whatever reason they can't get it open to look at the way someone else wrote something?

 

[Azbest]

Okay, i know this is a noob question, but..how do u exacly (or how it spells xD) make map protection?? i could use that

 

[Flare]

So... distribution of knowledge not a cool thing anymore? Well, I guess that we shouldn't publish text books or anything anymore either. If the kids REALLY want to learn Geometry, they can start from scratch, just like Euclid did, right?

Well, people don't naturally have knowledge of various things, you know, so there isn't many places you can start out other than 'from scratch'... tutorials/text books/whatever else just aid in the process (and I'm sure we all used tutorials at some stage)

I might just be some ignorrant, unfaithful douchebag in saying this, but why would someone be really so motivated to learn a programming language, one that's totally useless for anything but this one game, from scratch because everyone protected their maps and for whatever reason they can't get it open to look at the way someone else wrote something?

For the hell of it? Anyway, there isn't much point in opening the map to look at how someone else does it unless you plan to learn something from it and, to be honest, I doubt learning is the primary motive. Anyway, if they want to see how someone else did it, they can always be polite about it and ask the map author, rather than dig around through the map without his/her permission

@TheDamien: ... do you debate with people for a living?

 

[Bloody_Turds]

pretty much anyone could figure out how to 'add a cheat pack' to your map
pluss if they cant there are sites that will do it for them XD
when protecting a map, it is HARD to recover compleetly, (make playable, restore trigs correctly)
But the unit/terrain data is pretty easy to get, edit, and reimport into a protected version of the same map.
besides, no one person can balance a game, without an imba amount of mathamatical calculations, because everyone has bias twards certain things
Example; in most TD's AOE attacks are highly overpowered and single target towers suck,
pluss a game will be balanced to the creators playing strategy.
I say map protection is OK, but you should also release an unprotected version afterwards (especially if thats your last version)
who cares if theres 50 knockoffs, only the best of those 50 will ever get hosted past the 1st generation, and eventually one will stand out and become the new author. Thats how games go, i could only hope that my games get good enough that someone continues them beyond my reign on wc3

 

[Varine]

For the hell of it? Anyway, there isn't much point in opening the map to look at how someone else does it unless you plan to learn something from it and, to be honest, I doubt learning is the primary motive. Anyway, if they want to see how someone else did it, they can always be polite about it and ask the map author, rather than dig around through the map without his/her permission

Because the map maker will probably really care and be sure to get back to them immediately.
Open the map to figure out how they did an effect, not like you need to really learn JASS to do stuff in it. Just need to get the frame work and figure out what to change.

Well, people don't naturally have knowledge of various things, you know, so there isn't many places you can start out other than 'from scratch'... tutorials/text books/whatever else just aid in the process (and I'm sure we all used tutorials at some stage)

This argument goes no where.

Okay, I know this is a noob question, but: How exactly (or however it's spelled) do you make a map protected? I could use that.

No you couldn't; it's a useless thing to do. But the easiest way would be to either optimize it or get a program to fuck the header up.

 

[joaoac]

Big post. So, spoiler.

Spoiler

WindexIsBack
Map protection is silly to me. The only reason why you would want to protect is so people "Can't Steal Credit"

Who cares if people steal your map. It doesn't effect you, you aren't making money off the map.

Agreed.

CheesyBeefy
Only really popular maps should use map protectors such as Dota, Footman Wars, WMW etc... Because then people would just open them, make 2 changes, and re-release it with their name on it. It would be chaos!

Agreed.

Zerox
So in DoTA's case I think its justified. But in most cases I find it sad that someone would feel that way so much that they would stop any chance of learning.

I myself never personallly protect my maps just because of the way I feel towards general map protecting. Besides there are many many people who may download your map that can't even host on battle.net so the odds are yet again low that someone would claim it theirs.

Agreed.

Cowmenace
I have spent well over a year making this one map. I know it may seem like a rediculously long time, and I agree. I, however, have had a good time creating it. When I release it, I of course have very high expectations, as the amount of time I have spent creating it is extremely high. If by some chance it become one of the few highly played maps, I want to be known as the person who made it. Ya it seems selfish but honestly I want to be seen and be known as the person who made that map, not some jackass that changed around the load screen! Whether popular or not, I will protect this map because it is mine and what little recognition I get is what I deserve, and some guy was going off about "it's not like you will make money off of it" well if you look at sites such as dotastrategy.com and you see those ads - that is a large amount of money right there. I want that to be mine...

Good point of view. But do you think that Blizzard's agrees with this ?

Opossum
It's probably much more of a "problem" with maps that are less well known and that are in fact distributed by someone hosting it and others downloading it. On the few times I joined some random fun games I did meet people with, shall we call it "host advantage" more than once. No need to go into the details of what people did to tip the odds in their favor or whether it makes sense to play a hero arena like map after giving yourself invulnerability. The thing is that this definetly does not make me want to play this map anymore. Maybe the original version is good, but getting whacked by god-mode players isn't helping.

Agreed.

I think that the purpose of the game is fun. If map protection was a so needed issued on map-making, Blizzard itself could add a function to do that in the original program, just above the File / Open Save Close menu lines.

When you talk about some kind of protection that doesn't mean make money or protect your money, you probably can call it selfish, ego, jealousy, proud and etc.

My personal opinion is: map protection is good only for contests, tournaments and stuff that challenges who's the best map-maker.
I disagree with the opinion from being rigged or copy-pasted.
Cos people that rig a map to god-like their heroes are a low-level class of person and player. Probably a selfish guy that surely doesn't have much happyness on his life and likes to overrun his "friends" on local LAN games. They don't need my attention. They should grab a ball or something other stuff and go outdoor to get a life with real friends, or take his girlfriend for ride or a good date.

For those (like me) who likes to learn (not copy-paste) from codes and triggers is really painfull to open a map and discover that it's protected.

Lol... I saw thousands of really nooba maps on the B.net and when trying to look at it on the Editor, it was protected. then i thought: WTF???? Why protecting this sucky map???

But everybody has the rights to do what they want, this is just my humble opinion and it not must be agreed by anyone.

And if you want to make money from maps, just send an e-mail to Blizzard with your curriculum vitae and portfolio and try to work there!:thup:

Sorry the bad english. Its not my native language.
:shades:

 

[BANANAMAN]

I don't see why people are against map protecting.


Would you have people release maps that you've made yourself claiming it's their's when all they did was change the credits? I mean You worked long and hard to make that map perfect and your gonna let some jerk wreck your work?

 

[Sil3nt]

Map protection is a privilege. If someone wanted to learn how to do something from your map, then they can ask.

Lets be realistic here, if you spent months perfecting a map, you wouldn't want it being modified and released with some other guy's name.

As stated, you can't make profits from maps you make. But thats not the point. Map protection is basically a way to help secure yourself some recognition for your hardwork.

Only really popular maps should use map protectors such as Dota, Footman Wars, WMW etc... Because then people would just open them, make 2 changes, and re-release it with their name on it. It would be chaos!

On the contrary in my opinion. Referring to DotA; it has a site of its own. Everyone (majority) knows where to download it. People know straight away if it is edited, and will not play.

It's the unpopular maps that need the map protection. People can steal maps off random map makers since they have a low reputation and are not well renowned.

As I stated at the start, map protection is a privilege. Sure some people want to open maps up to learn from them, but there are very few who actually do that.

 

[Flare]

Because the map maker will probably really care and be sure to get back to them immediately.

It's better than being an ass about it. Noone makes a WC3 map in the hopes that someone will 'learn' because they rarely do. If they did, they could go make their own half-decent map instead of stealing credit for someone else's map

This argument goes no where.

And your argument does? Maps are made with the primary intention of being played, believe it or not.

Spoiler

Couldn't resist

If they were meant for learning, Blizzard probably would've added some half-decent examples (and the custom maps that Blizzard developed aren't very helpful, since they explain nothing about what everything is supposed to do)

Lol... I saw thousands of really nooba maps on the B.net and when trying to look at it on the Editor, it was protected. then i thought: WTF???? Why protecting this sucky map???

Perhaps they are proud of their map (could be their first map) and think of it as an achievement, and would rather that people don't make it crap. Anyway, if it's so crap, why would you want to look at it?

It's the unpopular maps that need the map protection. People can steal maps off random map makers since they have a low reputation and are not well renowned.

Not necessarily the unpopular maps. There a cheated versions of a number of popular maps. Just depends on the loser who decided to add cheats, I guess

 

[joaoac]

Perhaps they are proud of their map (could be their first map) and think of it as an achievement, and would rather that people don't make it crap. Anyway, if it's so crap, why would you want to look at it?

Because, sometimes they have crashes and I try to learn from that. I always try to learn from every map I play. Crappy or not.

 

[Dakho]

Protecting is important for successful maps, I don't want tons of cheap knock-offs. For a new map it's pointless, unless you're convinced your map is the next DotA.

That's all.