(Huge) Core Attribute Changes

2-P

I will work hard tomorrow
Reaction score
325
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27795769376&pageNo=1&sid=3000#0

Not too long ago we decided to make some changes to how our core player character attributes work. We wanted to share with all of you what problems we ran into, how we want to fix them, and what our new attributes are.

This is a fairly info-heavy write up and takes into account that you're well versed in core attributes of Diablo II, as well as what has been previously shown in Diablo III. If you're not, you'll still get some good information, just keep in mind that this isn't intended as a comprehensive guide, but a design-heavy explanation for those already following the game very closely. (And if you're one of those people you just got real excited.)

Attribute problems:

Damage increase confusion:
Willpower increased damage for casters (wizard, witch doctor), and Strength increased damage for weapon users (monk, barb, demon hunter). This is inherently confusing, because many monk abilities, and some barb abilities, look like spells, and the demon hunter seems like she should be affected by Dexterity instead of Strength - - at least logically.

Build diversity:
It’s always been our goal that the core attributes were valuable for all classes in an effort to encourage a broad set of builds. The method we used for this, and the attributes we chose, accomplished this goal under the hood (more or less), but perception was that certain attributes were much more desirable depending on your class. Ultimately the split of damage between willpower and strength meant that despite those abilities having secondary functions that were useful, most ignored the stat that did not apply to their class for damage purposes. This meant each class really only had three attributes they cared about, at best, which was a bit narrow.

Resource (Fury/Mana/Spirit/etc.) tuning and progression:
Diablo is a progression focused game, all about getting more powerful. This makes us want to design systems like resources to scale over time. However, we had no resource attribute. So as a player if you are frustrated by the amount of resource available to you, there wasn't an obvious enough and analog enough method for making your situation better. Regardless of Diablo II balance issues (i.e. energy not being effective relative to other stats, mostly due to mana steal), if you wanted more mana you knew that energy was the place to fix this. Without something like this resources are difficult to tune, especially given that our goal is to tune them so that it's a nice progression from start to end.

So, to solve these issues we’re changing our core attributes from Strength, Dexterity, Vitality, and Willpower to:

Attack: Increases damage
- This stat will be a universal damage increasing stat for all classes to prevent confusion about what you should increase to do more damage.
- We realize that ‘Attack’ is less flavorful than ‘Strength’ and ‘Willpower’, but we feel the pros of understanding clearly how to build your character outweigh that con.
- This stat has no secondary effects.

Precision: Increases crit chance
- This will be tuned to be comparable in power to Attack increases for the most part.
- So why have Precision? Mainly so we can play into it with affixes, runes, and traits. Linking effects to crits gives us another hook for designing skills and gives the player options to create ‘crit builds’ that play different than normal attack builds. Examples of the kind of crit effects we 'could' do (not saying we are, these are examples):
- - Cleave crits cause monsters to explode and do damage to those around them.
- - Lifesteal could be an ‘on crit only’ affix.
- This is a more finesse stat, and we’re fine with that. Most people will want Attack by default, but they won’t mind getting precision.
- This stat has no secondary effect.

Vitality: Increases health
- And it's staying that way!
- This stat has no secondary effect (seeing the pattern here?).

Defense: Decreases all damage taken
- This stat is separate from armor and resistances, each of which effects different damage types. This stat effects ‘all’ damage.
- This stat will allow players to control incoming damage rather than increasing health capacity, which is useful to reduce the need for health globes and pots, and allows players to double down on defense for survival focused builds.
- This stat is also useful for PVP, and likely will be valued in the arenas, but isn't tuned to be a 'PVP' only stat.
- This stat has no secondary effects.

Willpower: Affects resource in class-specific ways
- The effects of this stat will change from class to class. It will be our goal to make it roughly equivalently valuable across classes and versus other attributes.
- Basically this stat will give you more access to whatever restricts your resource by default: capacity, regen rate, degeneration rate, generation rate, etc.

This will change and affect several item affixes, but specifically we’ll be making the following changes to address issues with casters under-valuing gear (more below in Q&A), and to clear out attributes that are going away:
- Removing +spell damage affixes
- Adding Bonus % damage for wizard skills (wizard only)
- Adding Bonus % damage for witch doctor skills (witch doctor only)
- Removing Strength
- Removing Dexterity

Q&A

Q: Why do none of the core stats have secondary effects?
A: To focus their intent, making them simple and straightforward to understand. Your core attributes boil down to: damage, crit, health, damage mitigation, and resource.

Q: Since the attributes mostly only have one effect why not name them for that effect? Why not have ‘Damage’, ‘Crit Chance’, ‘Health’, etc.?
A: The main reason is so that we can value the attributes against one another. If you see one item with +15 health and another item with +3 Damage, and those are both core attributes, the general assumption is that the health is the better choice, because the number is bigger. But that may not be the case. By having representational core attributes we can play with the math under the hood so that +3 Vitality is roughly equal to +3 Attack, which makes assessing loot more straight forward.

Also, because common terms like ‘damage’ and ‘health’ are used in a variety of ways, re-using them for core attributes is potentially more confusing than going with symbolic attributes.

And finally, it sounds cooler to make a ‘Vitality’ barbarian than a ‘Health’ barbarian. ;)

Q: Why is +spell damage going away as an affix?
A: Same reason we combined Strength and Willpower into Attack, it was inherently confusing as an attribute.

Q: Why add wizard and witch doctor only damage increase affixes?
A: Casters who don’t rely on weapons need a reason to care about their weapons. The monk, barb, and demon hunter all have the DPS stat that has a big impact on their damage. This was the purpose of +spell damage, so without it the wizard and witch doctor will be missing a damage modifier stat to make up for their lack of need for weapon DPS. We’re adding these stats as weapon focused affixes that will make wizard’s and witch doctor’s care about their weapons. This specifically addresses issues that Diablo II had where some classes could more effectively stack magic find gear than others without hurting their damage output or survivability.

This is one of many, many possible solutions we considered. This one ultimately felt the cleanest and most straightforward.

Q: How will items work that get these new wizard and witch doctor affixes? Will only class specific items get them? In general what’s the philosophy behind class specific items?
A: It is not our intent that classes always use their class specific items, specifically in the weapon department. But, class specific items will be predictable sources for stats good for your class, as we’ll restrict them to only carry affixes your class could want.

However, all affixes you could want will still appear on any weapon your class can use. So Wizards can get swords with '+% to Wizard Skills'. Such items will be more rare, so more melee oriented classes aren’t always getting their weapons ruined by wizard only stats, but it will happen.

Q: But I hate getting items that say ‘Wizard Only’, or ‘Witch Doctor Only’ on them when I could have used them otherwise!
A: Please re-phrase in the form of a question. ;)

Nobody likes getting items that aren’t for them, but it’s the core of the game. Lots of class specific, weird, or flat out crappy items drop in Diablo. That’s part of what makes the really good items, good. Yes, seeing ‘this item is not for you’ effectively written on an item sucks, but it’s a con worth the pro of the class balance it promotes.

Q: Isn’t this a big scary change to make so late in development?
A: It’s not as scary as it sounds, assuming you, gentle reader, aren't frightened. :) The core of game balance is going to happen approaching the final stages of development. Most of this is a re-structuring of how things work, not a reinvention, so impact is somewhat predictable. Many of these changes actually make the balance process easier and more straightforward. We had also already been planning to go over, tune, or improve many of the parts and pieces that this change affects.

Don't misunderstand, this is a fairly big change, but it’s work worth doing for the most important reason of all: we believe it will make the game better.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Reaction score
297
I dunno... sounds... pretty good actually, they are keeping the same core systems (like controls, battle system and ways of leveling up abilities) but they are also changing a lot of the "secondary core" mechanics in the game... Imo this sounds perfect. Why ? Well, you get plenty of good new stuff to explore, but all those hours put into mastering the douge, potion timing and ability switching won't be cast aside. Yay !
 

Jedimindtrixxx

┻━┻ ︵ ¯\(ツ)/¯ ︵ ┻━┻
Reaction score
168
very cool.
im a bit confused on 'attack' though, does it increade WD/Wiz spell dmg or atk dmg?
 

Jedimindtrixxx

┻━┻ ︵ ¯\(ツ)/¯ ︵ ┻━┻
Reaction score
168

Nenad

~Choco Coronet~ Omnomnom
Reaction score
137
Being a long time Diablo player, i like how the changes went. Seriously, energy was worthless in D2 (not one char needed more than 10 points in it (and that was pushing it)). The general changes seem okay.

What i don't really like is precision, i would have preferred dexterity here. I understand why it is an easier concept for them, but i would still prefer a more "finesse" character to have evasion, faster attacks (or attack rate), and in general more critical power. What we get seems to focus mostly on critical attacks. This brings another problem, because it does not seem that we have a defensive stat. While not too bad, it would still help if something increased our defense (yeah i know, vitality does but then we repeat D2, pump rest in vit).

Now obviously precision will be affective for caster classes as well, since it would be a worthless stat otherwise, and they don't want that. This is positive but it can also lead to a luck based game, e.g a meteor crits and blows off the huge barbarian for example.

As long as it's balanced, i have no problems with it ^^ , as i said i like where it's going i just hope they will be able to balance it so that we don't abuse a certain stat, which is in fact what they generally want to do (spread our builds).
 

tommerbob

Minecraft. :D
Reaction score
110
To be honest, I'm pretty hesitant about these changes. I like that they are trying to simplify things, but I'm not sure I like how they are doing it, at least with the Attack stat. For one thing, "Attack" is just a horrible name for an RPG stat.

The main concern with the new Attack stat I have is the fact that it increases all damage. That means that items with the "+Attack" mod will be beneficial to all players regardless of their build. Why is that bad? Because it reduces a player's customizing options for their character. They no longer need to choose between Spell Damage and Physical damage. All they need is +Attack and they are set. I just don't like it. Spell Damage and Physical Damage are inherently different damage types, and therefore should be treated differently. It doesn't make any sense for the same stat that makes me hit harder with my sword also makes my spells more powerful.

The excuses that Blizzard has given for these changes are completely lame. Example:

Willpower increased damage for casters (wizard, witch doctor), and Strength increased damage for weapon users (monk, barb, demon hunter). This is inherently confusing

Someone please explain to me how that is confusing. It's only confusing for stupid 10 year olds who shouldn't be playing this game anyway because it is intentionally M-rated. I understand that it can be difficult for some character balancing because some skill-damage should be based on Willpower, while others should be based on Dexterity or Strength. But I don't think the solution is combining the stats. Just change the way skills are affected by stats. WoW does it just fine.

I don't mind most of the changes here. I like a lot of them. But what I really don't like is the lame excuses Blizzard gives for making these changes. Stop treating us like we're retards.

I will have to wait and play the game for myself obviously, I might actually like this change. But right now, I'm really hesitant about it.
 

SerraAvenger

Cuz I can
Reaction score
234
For one thing, "Attack" is just a horrible name for an RPG stat.

For a gothic RPG like Diablo was I agree. It always depends on the theme of the game whether Attack is a good name or not.
The Blizzard guys are pretty good, I'm sure they'll come up with a better name in the future (which supports the theme). As for now, the name doesn't really matter since it is still in development and the mechanics change is more what matters.

That means that items with the "+Attack" mod will be beneficial to all players regardless of their build. Why is that bad? Because it reduces a player's customizing options for their character.

I don't agree. It just reduces customizing options to those that are not obvious.
Just imagine there was a second stat, Magic Attack, which would boost Spell Damage.
Now, as a Spell Caster, if you want to boost your damage, what do you choose?
Magic Attack, of course.
And as a Barbarian?
Attack, of course.

The customization stays the same.
As a matter of fact, this actually increases customization; Since now, you can choose between %crit and +damage.

They no longer need to choose between Spell Damage and Physical damage. All they need is +Attack and they are set. I just don't like it. Spell Damage and Physical Damage are inherently different damage types, and therefore should be treated differently.

I agree. The only problem I have with this change is that as a Mighty Wizard, you can just pick up an Axe and still do loads of damage with it.
This is why we still have both, normal damage and spell damage as two separate stats.

Someone please explain to me how that is confusing.

Just imagine the DH having a skill "Fire Blast" which deals damage to enemies in an AoE. Which stat would you think boosts Fire Blast's damage?
Right, Strength.
And I guess this was actually the main problem, and could've been fixed by making the skills dependent on the more intuitive stat respectively. The system they had in place also rendered one stat useless per class.

I understand that it can be difficult for some character balancing because some skill-damage should be based on Willpower, while others should be based on Dexterity or Strength. But I don't think the solution is combining the stats. Just change the way skills are affected by stats.

In what way?

I will have to wait and play the game for myself obviously, I might actually like this change. But right now, I'm really hesitant about it.

You will, once the names are adjusted to the theme.
 

tommerbob

Minecraft. :D
Reaction score
110
Just imagine the DH having a skill "Fire Blast" which deals damage to enemies in an AoE. Which stat would you think boosts Fire Blast's damage?
Right, Strength.

Why would strength increase fire damage? That's not logical to me. But w/e. Apparently it is to most people.
 

SerraAvenger

Cuz I can
Reaction score
234
Why would strength increase fire damage? That's not logical to me. But w/e. Apparently it is to most people.

You just proved my and Blizzard's point; Thank you.

I still disagree with the solution, I'd rather have "Fire Blast" be increased by Willpower (or whatever) but using Attack is fine too.
 

Bartuc08

Mostly known as Zomby Jezuz
Reaction score
154
Like all things Blizzard, I'm sure this will all work out well in the end. I just hope they don't stick with "attack", perhaps "power" or "focus"?

Anyway, these changes shouldn't be taken as life shattering considering beta testing hasn't even began, so we have nothing to compare it too.
 

Ioannes

Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face.
Reaction score
49
I hope 3 things happen

1. Nothing in the game will be obsolete (in the way that Energy or Gold were quite useless in D2)
2. The old difficulty curve and gameplay challenges will be preserved
3. There will be plenty of items with interesting feel about them, which helps create a more gothic atmosphere.


Ceterum censeo Diablo3 debet esse satanica.

P.s. it is explained for retards because in 2012 it's retards who make up the targeted group of buyers for the game. Sad news.
 

tommerbob

Minecraft. :D
Reaction score
110
You just proved my and Blizzard's point; Thank you.

I still disagree with the solution, I'd rather have "Fire Blast" be increased by Willpower (or whatever)

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Yet we disagree?

it is explained for retards because in 2012 it's retards who make up the targeted group of buyers for the game. Sad news.

^^ This. Not just retards though, it's also a younger generation of gamers, though they often go hand-in-hand.
 

SerraAvenger

Cuz I can
Reaction score
234
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Yet we disagree?
We disagree in the point that the system they had before was inherently confusing.
You say that it wasn't, I showed you an example, you were confused. QED : )

Then there also is this other discussion about where we both agree that another system could've solved the problem as well, one without having to change the whole model.

^^ This. Not just retards though, it's also a younger generation of gamers, though they often go hand-in-hand.

Meh. Simplicity sells. The tenor of GDC 2010 was "Dumbing down, dumbing down", too. Doesn't really have anything to do with retards or age, it is more about seizing new markets.
 

tommerbob

Minecraft. :D
Reaction score
110
We disagree in the point that the system they had before was inherently confusing.
You say that it wasn't, I showed you an example, you were confused. QED : )

But the DH didn't have a fireblast skill that was based on strength...

Anyhow, yes I see your point. I will just wait and see how it plays out. I'm less concerned now than I was when they first announced this change.
 
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.

      The Helper Discord

      Members online

      No members online now.

      Affiliates

      Hive Workshop NUON Dome World Editor Tutorials

      Network Sponsors

      Apex Steel Pipe - Buys and sells Steel Pipe.
      Top