MLG Orlando

[Siretu]

Depends on what you look up to. You should of course not look up to his personality and manners as they are obviously questionable. On the other hand, looking up to his macro and pure mechanics is a very good thing. Striving to improve and perfect your macro and mechanics is one of the best things you can do to improve in Starcraft 2, don't you agree?

 

[Jedimindtrixxx]

Depends on what you look up to. You should of course not look up to his personality and manners as they are obviously questionable. On the other hand, looking up to his macro and pure mechanics is a very good thing. Striving to improve and perfect your macro and mechanics is one of the best things you can do to improve in Starcraft 2, don't you agree?

not to mention his manners have actually improved quite a lot recently ive noticed.

 

[Accname]

I am not quite sure about Idras "skill".
I have recently seen alot of his games, commentated by various casters, and i must say he does always the same.
Whenever he fights terran he goes for ling baneling mutalisks. Its always the same. His opponents do not even need to scout, you can expect idra to go for this with a 100% probability.
He executes this build almost perfectly, his timings are incredible and everything looks like its done by a machine. But it really is always the very same build.
In my opinion idra is not able to make new and surprising moves. He loses his games because everybody knows how he plays. It is like idra is playing with shared vision given to his opponents because they can easily look up all his timings and all his moves in the previous games, he will never switch it up.

This is what i really dislike about his play. And that is why i like other players much more.

 

[Siretu]

That's because that is the most viable build for a macro game. I agree that his ZvT is rarely anything unusual but his ZvP is actually quite good. I really liked his games versus HongUn in MLG.

 

[Bloodcount]

Actually in any match up this isn't good for him. For example I can go nexus first and skip the forge against him, because I will have a zeal in time the lings on his build arrive. He should cheese now and again imo, just to prevent players from abusing his macro orientated style. But that is just my thougts, I am not on EG. ^_^

 

[Accname]

That's because that is the most viable build for a macro game. I agree that his ZvT is rarely anything unusual but his ZvP is actually quite good. I really liked his games versus HongUn in MLG.

Watch those 2 commentaries, both are EGIdra vs GoSuRichman.
Game 1: (Youtube channel of Force Strategy Gaming)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ForceSC2strategy#p/c/A94604543ABA6897/12/UULGs2cIwwU
Game 2: (Youtube channel of Force Strategy Gaming)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ForceSC2strategy#p/c/A94604543ABA6897/13/D4SKSy3aAic

(text below spoils the 2 games linked above)

Spoiler

I hope you can understand what i mean.
Idras playstyle is so well known that his opponents can blindly play and perfectly counter him. (first game)
And when he faces situations he is not prepared for (because they do not appear in standard games of him) he is simply overstrained and messes up. (second game)

Okay, his enemy was cheesing, but i guess a "pro" should be the first one to know how to deal with it. even I can deal with 2 rax pressure, and this is supposed to be Idra, member of EG and winner of many tournaments.
He just doesnt know what to do if the game does not progress according to his build order and plan. Thats my oppinion about him.
He has very good mechanics, but he is definitely not the right guy to play against human players.
I bet he could beat 2 brutal AI's at once, and still he loses against something as simple as ladder cheese.

Off-Topic: By the way, you can see some classic bad manner in these games. I love it.

 

[Jedimindtrixxx]

The entire point of a cheese is to get an easy win... nobody would cheese if it was just that easy to win against. You have to realize these rnt your bronze-level players getting into platinum by mastering cheese either, these are professional players doing the cheesing.

Are you going to say boxer is a bad player, because when he tried to macro he lost? 'He just doesnt know what to do if the game does not progress according to his build order and plan.'.

 

[Accname]

And i dont share your opinion about cheese. The point is not to get an easy win, the point is to win by using a tactic which the enemy does not see coming.
All cheese tactics are easy to counter but the counter to those tactics is often costly. Putting down very early defenses will cost you the late game if your opponent does decide to not do any early aggression.
If your enemy goes for 2 rax pressure cutting workers after he got like 12 or so and using 2 of them in the fight is basically an all in, and it will win for as long as the enemy doesnt counter it. And the enemy will not counter it if he doesnt see it coming.
In fact it is easy to win against cheese if you scout it and react accordingly. I have seen many other zerg players do very well against early marine + bunker pressure. I saw sheth or DRG and many others dealing very well with those marines, even after going for a 15 hatch.

What GoSuRichman did in these games is pretty simple to me, it shows the true nature of a "strategy" game.
He watched idra play, he analysed idras style, he saw idras weak point, early aggression, and reacted accordingly.
That was a viable tactic and strategic thinking in my opinion.

I would say it is "cheese" if he would do it blindly, like many people do it on the ladder.
But i assume he didnt, he is in a well known pro-gaming team after all.

When you think abusing your opponents weakness against early attacks is "cheesy" or even "unfair" then you should maybe think about playing against the AI or play non-strategy games.
This is an universally legal phrase (in my opinion), please dont understand it as an attack specifically directed towards you.

 

[Siretu]

Cheese is a term that is not the same as unfair in any way. A player can cheese without doing it blindly. The definition of cheese varies a lot depending on who you ask but it's generally as you said, a tactic that the enemy does not see coming. In other words, it revolves around secrecy.

If your opponent suddenly knew about your 6pool at the start of the game, there would be no secrecy and you would probably lose since he could react properly. The problem with cheese is that if the opponent does not find out about it or fails to react properly, he will often lose in an embarrassing fashion. In other words, if he does not react properly, you will have an easy win.

As jedi mentioned, this is not the platinum terran 2rax'ing you that you're used to. It's a professional player. Not only that but IdrA didn't scout it before both barracks were already up so he had almost no time to react properly. Sure you can deal with 2rax pressure. Try doing it on stage where losing could mean the difference between 0 and $5000(I don't know where the games are from so I'm taking MLG as an example) and where your opponent is one of the best players in the world.

How many times have you seen a professional player lose to a 2rax? I'd say it happens all the time. The fact that Idra lost to it doesn't really mean anything. All professional zerg players that I've watched loses to 2rax occasionally. Does this mean all professional zerg players shouldn't be playing against other human players since they obviously don't know what to do if things don't go how they planned?

I would also like to point out that a cheese can be analyzed and well thought out.


Do you agree that the point that you're trying to make does not apply to his ZvP? As I said, his ZvP games in MLG were different and varied. Especially those against HongUn.

You also have to consider that you can't do all the gimmicky stuff just so your fans will be content. If doing gimmicky stuff lowers your chance of winning $5000 drastically, would you do it?

I am an Idra fan(or a zerg fan in general) and I'd say Idra doesn't lose significantly more to early game cheese than other zergs do.

He does however go on a tilt if he loses the first game. That is his biggest currently weakness, not his inability to survive early aggression. Almost all zergs have that problem.

 

[Accname]

He did scout it out in the first game and still went for the 15 hatch. He saw the 2 rax when he entered the xel naga and then dropped the hatchery.
You can argue whether a pro gamer like Richman (to be honest i have never seen him in any other game, cant really tell about his level of skill) can execute that cheese so much better then the ladder kiddies doing this all day long.
Fact is that its rather easy to react to this kind of cheese. But many dont do so.

I would say Idra was just too greedy and played it risky. In both the first and the second game i assume he would have lost if he just went for one or two spinecrawlers. His opponent had barely 10 scvs mining, he had no wall off.
Once Idra got zergling speed he could slip some lings inside of Richmans base and demolish him.
One or two spinecrawlers and a queen or even two could hold off any early marine + bunker pressure.
I know this and a pro player should know this as well.

And i guess Idra knew how far Richman was behind in those games economically speaking. He should know if he is a real pro player. He saw how many marines his opponent already had, how fast those 2 rax went up. he could take no defense at the base and little saturation for granted.

He just was greedy.
He wanted to play Idra style, get the 15 hatch, dont waste drones on minerals. Dont build lings.

I am not entirely against this style, it can win him games and it sure did many times before.
But when he realizes he is up against cheese, and he did scout it early enough, he should change his tactic.
Especially if you play professionally and there is real money at stake.
He choose not to play defensively and lost to something as simple as 2 rax pressure. Even when executed by a pro player its still only a gradual difference.

In the second game he didnt scout his opponent right of the bat. Why did he do this? He just lost against a 2 rax and he didnt scout.
He went for the pool first though.
But even when he saw the first 4 marines right outside of his ramp he didnt bother to throw down even a single spine crawler. The second game could have been very easy for him if he did that right the moment he saw it coming.

I can only assume that idra was thinking it was a fake. Some kind of crazy double expand behind a faked 2 rax all in which would end up in a bunker containment. Could have been mind games they were playing there and richman managed to trick idra. Cannot say for sure.
But how idra dealt with the attack was really poorly if you look at it. That wasnt the level of gameplay i had expected from him.

And to be honest, i rarely see a professional player lose to that. Sometimes they are contained a little bit, sometimes they are forced to cancel their fast expansion, but it has never been outright lost.
Because as a zerg player you know that your enemy is behind as well after such an attack. Sometimes the zerg player still win the game after "losing" their early expo to bunker rushing.
----------------------------------------------------------

About his ZvP i am not entirely sure what to say.
When i see idra play ZvP it often (!not always!) ends up with him quitting prematurely and calling protoss op.
I saw him lose against Elfi (Hillarious warp prism + sentry + phoenix combo attack)
I saw him lose agains Hero (Again warp prism + sentry, this time with void rays)
I saw him lose against Minigun (Yet again, warp prism + sentry.) (I really hat that combo. . . I want queens to be massive units.)
(Another one, no warp prism this time though.)
And i saw him lose to MC many times.
(sorry these are all commentated by force, dont want to check through too many sources right now)

There were plenty of other games, when he lost against HuK or other protoss players.

Yes yes, of course, nobody does always win. He most certainly beated those guys as well some or even many times. I just wanted to hint out that his ZvP isnt perfect either.
He often does the same in those games, macro macro macro, build up roach hydra infestor, get demolished or win.

Whether he wins or not is often decided by how his enemy response looks like, what i can tell, Idra is very prone to "cheesy" play.
But in my opinion, when the opponents know that Idra is most comfotable with macro games why not force him to play a micro game? Thats a very logical thought to force Idra into a situation he just doesnt know to deal with. (as it seems judging from those games.)

But again, i am not saying Idra is a bad player. In my very first post about this topic i said his game mechanics are incredible and he plays very effective.
But in from my point of view his skills are very limited to certain situations, when facing not-so-common tactics or risky maneuvers from his opponents he seems to fail miserably.
What i notice in his ZvP especially is how he rages about both sentry force fields and blink stalkers. He rages all the time about those two skills. Its hillarious.

To be honest, i only like watching idra play when he loses. If he wins i know the game is going to be boring. Have you seen him win once you know how the game will play out. macro macro macro. One big fight. either one loses.
If you see him lose its always "incredible" and hillarious. When protoss players with warp prisms, blink stalkers and sentries beat idra it always looks like they are taunting him and he rages so hard about it. That just makes my day, i could watch some of these over and over.

Edit: OMG i just realized how much i wrote about this topic O_O. I guess i can use this post as prove for my dedication to e-sports huh?

 

[Siretu]

First of all, my point about his ZvP is not that it is very good or anything like that. I was just trying to state that he doesn't do the same thing every game and that he does mix it up. He plays a much more varied ZvP style than a lot of other zergs.

I think the reason he varies his style is because something is not standard.

I don't think I really remember your original problem with Idra. The fact that he always does the same thing and that he is very bad if he can't do that specific thing?

While I do agree that he is bad(by professional standards) to deal with cheese(I also didn't watch the games you previously linked although I looked through the second game), he is pretty decent at modifying his play throughout a game.

I feel like your argument that he always does the same thing is kind of valid but it is true for most players. Yet you're only arguing about Idra. Most players(especially zerg, right now people haven't figured out that many stable options to the norm) have basically the same mid-late game unit compositions in every game(changing depending on matchup of course) and rarely change it.

This is because the unit compositions they use are considered to be the strongest. Sometimes the metagame shifts, and people will start doing something else and everyone will have to adapt, but right now it's pretty stable. Remember when protoss mid-late game was just macroing up a deathball and then attacking with a maxed army that looked the same every game? It's nice that protoss are starting to experiment with warp prism and such because I know we would all prefer more options in the game instead of being locked in one composition.

This is why Idra and most other zergs(and other races) do mostly the same thing in the mid and late game.

Early game is different though and there's a lot of action that can happen here. Idra tries to drone up in this stage because he's preparing for the mid and late game.

Is it bad that he's focusing on his strong part and aiming for that instead of doing some crazy early aggression? Well, he actually does early aggression from time to time with decent success since people don't expect it. He just doesn't do it too often because it's still not his strong side and if he does it too often, people will start to expect it more.

When it comes to the two games that you previously linked. If we disregard the tilt in the second game, Idra was probably not expecting early aggression the second game in a row.

I can't say why Idra those games better but I can say that he knew the things you mentioned. I've heard him commentate games and that as well as interviews with other professional players who know him says that his game sense is sick. The amount of tells he can do on the limited things he can scout is awesome.

That's why I like listening to him when he commentates. He is actually a pretty good caster. He is not zerg-biased or whining about race-imbalance as one would think. Instead he gives a very good insight in his thoughts.

 

[GFreak45]

zomg... its the great wall... of text

if you are going to do that do u mind making it "pretty" with maybe bold headlines separating the main points? not saying i never do it, but it hurts my head when i look at my own posts that look like this

 

[Accname]

Maybe Siretu and i should write a book about this topic. Or an E-Sports magazine.

 

[Siretu]

An interesting idea, that's for sure.