Multiculturalism

[Zakyath]

What's your opinions about multiculturalism?

In Europe we have a lot of debates over this. But I can only speak for how it is in Sweden. The only political in party in Sweden which is against it states that we in Sweden have a common culture: we work hard, without bragging about it. We are neutral when it comes to war. 80% of us are agnostics or atheists. Materialism is not equal to status. But when other cultures (most focus is laid on muslims) come to Sweden, they do not adjust to our society, which most of Sweden think is the right choice. The socialistic&nationalistic (not nazi) party SD (Sweden Democrats) compares this with trying to put a VHS in a DVD-player. It just won't fit.

I myself am neutral in this question - I think that everyone has the right to be themselves - but then again, if enough people come here with an attitude that isn't swedish, we will eventually not have as strong cultural bonds left and we will slowly but surely lose our political power to influence our country in the way the swedes want it.

So what are your opinions? Some background info on how it is in your country would be interesting. And let's keep this mature. No generalisations or calling people racists, etc.

 

[ReVolver]

If you want to see good Multiculturalism just look at USA? It's been doing fine for a while now.

 

[Zakyath]

If you want to see good Multiculturalism just look at USA? It's been doing fine for a while now.

From the impression I've gotten, you've got much more segregation and racism in the states than in Europe. But isn't your country built on multiculturalism? If you lived in a small country with only several million inhabitants who shared a culture which was strongly connected with your politics, how would you feel if you knew millions from a completely different culture came to your country - there could be many differences, maybe you support homosexuality, while the other culture doesn't, maybe your culture is characterized by capitalism, while the other by socialism etc. How would you feel? Would you welcome the integration with open arms? Should they adjust to you, or you to them, or should you let an "us and them" grow between the groups?

 

[SerraAvenger]

First some numbers:

80% of us are agnostics or atheists.

And about 70% are members of the Church of Sweden.

Muslims

You have about 5% Muslims, and 0.25% practicing Muslims.

Now, on to the debate.

I myself am neutral in this question - I think that everyone has the right to be themselves

I agree. The problem only arises when people are not of that opinion and try to modify your values. But as far as I can tell, there are little or no such tendencies amongst the immigrants here in Germany. Maybe it is different in Sweden, I don't know, but I don't think so.

But then again, if enough people come here with an attitude that isn't swedish, we will eventually not have as strong cultural bonds left and we will slowly but surely lose our political power to influence our country in the way the swedes want it.

Well the problem with this is that it differs between one kind of swedes and "native" swedes. You should really see all of you as one Swedish people, rather than the swedes and the others.
Having others integrate into your community will always affect the community, its goals and methods. I think that is one great opportunity, others see it as a danger.

The main danger in immigration is if there is no integration and several parallel communities arise. The problem is though that most western countries fail at integrating immigrants, which causes most (if not all) of the problems some see inherent to immigration itself.

It also results in the "us and them" mentality. To me, anyone who lives here is a German. But many of those people don't file like Germans, sometimes they feel like outcasts, often they outcast themselves (because of the language barrier, because of ignorant city planning, because of exclusion). There is still a lot of subtle racism going on (in both directions) which further separates the communities.

It is a vicious circle and it needs to be broken by further integration. Language courses are but one important step, others have to follow. Especially in terms of city planning and common schools, kindergartens, etc there is still a lot left undone.

EDIT:
For us, we have problems with people from Turkey and Russia. A friend who lives in England told me that the problem there is with people from Indian backgrounds mostly. But the source is usually the same, missing integration and the resulting parallel societies.

 

[Zakyath]

You make many valid points, and I think we have kinda similar opinions.

>And about 70% are members of the Church of Sweden.

But most of us doesn't believe in god.

I did some more proper research and I found this: http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Ath-Chap-under-7000.pdf
According to it 46-85% of Sweden's inhabitants doesn't believe in a god.

>You have about 5% Muslims, and 0.25% practicing Muslims.

That sounds accurate - I myself have no problem with muslims, but most of the attention is directed to them.

>I agree. The problem only arises when people are not of that opinion and try to modify your values. But as far as I can tell, there are little or no such tendencies amongst the immigrants here in Germany. Maybe it is different in Sweden, I don't know, but I don't think so.

In Sweden there are a lot of demands that laws should be changed in favour of those who believed - having an direct effect on society and others. They want the state to tell private gyms that they shouldn't let in both men and women at the same time, they want to have the law on their side so they can work 10 hours a week less than everyone else, etc. As you see, many issues do occur - who's side should one take? Should we let them have as they want and let the majority down?


>Well the problem with this is that it differs between one kind of swedes and "native" swedes. You should really see all of you as one Swedish people, rather than the swedes and the others.
Having others integrate into your community will always affect the community, its goals and methods.

I'm of the opinion that whoever feels swedish is a swede. Most immigrants don't. My father was from Germany, but I'm not german at all - I'm a swede, nothing else.

>I think that is one great opportunity, others see it as a danger.

I think that depends on the circumstances, but for the most part a opportunity - but it is also my opinion that it will also lead to many dilemmas.

>The main danger in immigration is if there is no integration and several parallel communities arise.

This is what's happening in Sweden.

>It is a vicious circle and it needs to be broken by further integration. Language courses are but one important step, others have to follow. Especially in terms of city planning and common schools, kindergartens, etc there is still a lot left undone.

Yes. But in the end it will always occur many issues where we have to chose which culture we should support, as with the VHS-tape and the DVD-player; different cultures are not always compatible.

>For us, we have problems with people from Turkey and Russia.

I've heard Hamburg is Turkey's second capital

 

[Nenad]

Well, i am for one an example of multiculturalism: I come from Serbia, and I live in Norway now.

In my opinion there are two sides here: The bigger towns and the countryside. I found the countryside to be quite racist and sceptical which helped me develop a certain bad generalization of Norway (for which i'm really angry with myself even today), however, the people living in bigger towns are very friendly and accepting of all religions, races, colours and cultures. I've been living in Trondheim for 3 years now and i find it wonderful here.

There is a general problem here because the immigrants are usually sent to smaller communes, where they feel outcast and basically next to everyone is rude to them. I believe (and most Norwegians agree with me) that this is a bad thing, as these people are then subjected to racism.

On to the actual topic of the debate, i would say I'm slightly neutral about this opinion. I believe that the people who move here should keep their own cultures and beliefs, however, i believe everyone should follow the law of the country they live in. This is the basic thing that i think must be enforced. If the law of the country forbids doing something that is legal (or even customary) in the residents own country, the resident should not do it no matter what. The law is the law and i don't think there should be any exceptions to deviate from it: The resident came to live in this country, the country did not come to live on top of him. I believe this is where the problem with other religious beliefs, as their customs may be in stark contrast to the customs of the nation they currently live in.

Bottom line is - I am for letting the new residents of the country behave as they want/need, as long as they follow the law of the country that they live in. Generally, by doing this no one should have any problems, since it is them that moved into the country, not a strange way around.

 

[Zakyath]

Well, i am for one an example of multiculturalism: I come from Serbia, and I live in Norway now.

In my opinion there are two sides here: The bigger towns and the countryside. I found the countryside to be quite racist and sceptical which helped me develop a certain bad generalization of Norway (for which i'm really angry with myself even today), however, the people living in bigger towns are very friendly and accepting of all religions, races, colours and cultures. I've been living in Trondheim for 3 years now and i find it wonderful here.

There is a general problem here because the immigrants are usually sent to smaller communes, where they feel outcast and basically next to everyone is rude to them. I believe (and most Norwegians agree with me) that this is a bad thing, as these people are then subjected to racism.

On to the actual topic of the debate, i would say I'm slightly neutral about this opinion. I believe that the people who move here should keep their own cultures and beliefs, however, i believe everyone should follow the law of the country they live in. This is the basic thing that i think must be enforced. If the law of the country forbids doing something that is legal (or even customary) in the residents own country, the resident should not do it no matter what. The law is the law and i don't think there should be any exceptions to deviate from it: The resident came to live in this country, the country did not come to live on top of him. I believe this is where the problem with other religious beliefs, as their customs may be in stark contrast to the customs of the nation they currently live in.

Bottom line is - I am for letting the new residents of the country behave as they want/need, as long as they follow the law of the country that they live in. Generally, by doing this no one should have any problems, since it is them that moved into the country, not a strange way around.

But why would you like to take your culture to another place? Why not stay then? If I moved to another country I would move somewhere I like it as it is, not try to make it what I want it to be.