Nationalized Health Care

Status
Not open for further replies.

ElderKingpin

Post in the anime section, or die.
Reaction score
134
Ya.. this is currently the plan Obama is pushing for.

My opinion.

No, just no, for one thing, the founding fathers of America never meant for government to be as big as it is today. And.. if we get socialized health care, who knows what will happen to America, maybe our republican democracy is going to turn into socialism, i dont know. The odds are pretty good that it wont happen, but who knows.

People who are for it: about 22%
People who are against it: about 78%
(as stated on CNN)
 

T.s.e

Wish I was old and a little sentimental
Reaction score
133
for one thing, the founding fathers of America never meant for government to be as big as it is today.
I think it's time to move on from what the founding fathers meant and start making a future of your own, not one that is based on 18th century beliefs ;)


And.. if we get socialized health care, who knows what will happen to America, maybe our republican democracy is going to turn into socialism, i dont know.
I really do not see what is so wrong with socialism. Would you care to explain?

Also, republican and socialism are two wildly different things.
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
Reaction score
803
I really do not see what is so wrong with socialism. Would you care to explain?

Because I work my ass off and don't want to spend it all on taxes for a bunch of services that I don't need or want, provided by the federal government despite that not being what the job of the federal government ever. I want my mail and them to have a military. I don't want them to provide me my health care or , nor do I want to give them half of my paycheck to pay for it.
 

T.s.e

Wish I was old and a little sentimental
Reaction score
133
Then what about the millions of people who cannot afford insurance, should they just lie down and die because you are unwilling to comitt to the common good?
 

Jackal

You can change this now in User CP... or Die Tryin
Reaction score
38
Because I work my ass off and don't want to spend it all on taxes for a bunch of services that I don't need or want, provided by the federal government despite that not being what the job of the federal government ever. I want my mail and them to have a military. I don't want them to provide me my health care or , nor do I want to give them half of my paycheck to pay for it.

Amazingly the US government spends more money per person on healthcare than the nationalized healthcare countries. I'm very interested to see all that US taxpayers' money goes, with the supposed 'free market' healthcare system.

I don't understand how a supposedly good 'free market' privatized healthcare system can be so 'good' when US citizens pay the most in the world per capita per country for the 37th best healthcare. Not quite getting the right value for money.
 

Zakyath

Member
Reaction score
239
Discussing if socialism is good or not really isn't what this debate's about, it's about healthcare, seems like some missed it.

I have to say I have no idea what your american government does with the tax payers money, because I know you have quite high salary taxes without getting much in return. Now, what we're supposed to talk about in this thread, unless the title is incorrect, is whether health care should be private or owned by your government. If your government wastes your money on "wrong" stuff, too bad, that's not really an argument against this. That the government is wasting your money can be just the opposite; instead of wasting your well earned money on stuff that are unnecessary, you might as well spend it on something that could be really, really useful. Like healthcare. I would rather pay for my neighbor to be well and healthy, than pay to send him to a war in a country I don't care about, so he can kill people, and suffer under a risk of dying himself.
 

Seb!

You can change this now in User CP.
Reaction score
144
Ya.. this is currently the plan Obama is pushing for.

Not really.. The public option may or may not be in the final bill. It's mostly reform.

No, just no, for one thing, the founding fathers of America never meant for government to be as big as it is today. And.. if we get socialized health care, who knows what will happen to America, maybe our republican democracy is going to turn into socialism, i dont know. The odds are pretty good that it wont happen, but who knows.

1) You have no idea what the founding fathers of America meant, and even if you did, they weren't in the kind of situation involving the kind of technology and culture that we have today. There isn't anything about that in the Constitution. However, in the 1910's, a Supreme Court ruled that governments could pay for health care (based on the wellness clause).
2) We already have Medicare, which is "socialized" health care and it is very popular among senior citizens. We have "socialized" mail delivery. Just because the government handles something, doesn't mean it's socialist in the negative sense.
3) Republican Democracy is a government system, while socialism is an economic system, so those two things are completely incomparable. Anyway, you don't just wake up and become socialist. There's no line drawn in the sand. They are very general terms for economic levels of government involvement. Most economies incorporate elements of both socialism and capitalism, and neither of them are inherently evil. It's how they're used.

People who are for it: about 22%
People who are against it: about 78%
(as stated on CNN)

As I recall, Medicare and the Civil Rights Act, which were both passed on LBJ's term, were unpopular with the masses, as well. Ten years later, both were widely popular. In the present day, you hear NO ONE complaining about either. The fact is, 70% of doctors want a public option. The informed want a public option. Hell, even Bill O'Reilly knows it's a good idea. 40 million people uninsured just isn't acceptable in the richest country in the world. Every other industrialized nation has it! As you said, this is a repersenative democracy, and we elected experts to choose for us. They don't have to sway with the constantly changing polls of the uninformed masses on a day to day basis.

Varine said:
Because I work my ass off and don't want to spend it all on taxes for a bunch of services that I don't need or want, provided by the federal government despite that not being what the job of the federal government ever. I want my mail and them to have a military. I don't want them to provide me my health care or , nor do I want to give them half of my paycheck to pay for it.

An option would save you money. I don't get where you people get this ridiculous idea that a public option would do anything but provide you with better care and give you an astronomical decrease in the ever-rising premiums of health care.

Jackal said:
I don't understand how a supposedly good 'free market' privatized healthcare system can be so 'good' when US citizens pay the most in the world per capita per country for the 37th best healthcare. Not quite getting the right value for money.

It is because the American health care system is based on profit, rather than performance. If a hospital can run fifteen tests to diagnose something, they will, because you or your insurance company has to pay for it. In France, an educated doctor can look at your elbow and tell you that it's sprained.

The incentive in America is money because hospitals are paid by how many tests and operations they can perform, and insurance companies are paid by how many losses they can cut off their system and how much they can charge those who are on the border. Under a nationalized system, doctors don't have such a malicious incentive. They give you the best, most affordable care possible.

The only people who DO NOT benefit from a public option are the insurance companies. Their influence on Congress, FOX news, and these "protesters" is so ridiculously strong that it appears as if it is not in the people's best interest to receive free care.

I didn't think it was possible, but they did it. They convinced America that by saving you money and giving you better, more stable care, the government was trying to take over your life and ration care.

Do you know what rationed care really is? Pre-existing conditions. Which is what we have now, with our private-sector insurance companies. They can choose whether or not to give you care based on how healthy you are. Then, they can choose how much it's going to cost you. If you can't pay, too bad. You are forced to pay thousands of dollars for care that would (and should) be free in another country.
 

ElderKingpin

Post in the anime section, or die.
Reaction score
134
Yes, the founding fathers never wanted government to control so much of the americn life. I hope you guys believe me when I say, free enterprise, is the best way to go. And yes socialism is a government system. Who controls it? Government. Ok I see people who cannot afford it. The problem is, human error, if we all pitch in people are bound to realiZe they don't have to work. That's why free enterprise is best, you are the one that decides your future, you initiative to work describes what you get paid. Free enterprise is the reason the American dream exists
 

ReVolver

Mega Super Ultra Cool Member
Reaction score
608
Then what about the millions of people who cannot afford insurance, should they just lie down and die because you are unwilling to comitt to the common good?

That's not a common good, in a common good you get to decide on it (like donating), if your forced to pay, that's another story...
 

Miz

Administrator
Reaction score
428
I think its necessary, and should have been done years ago.

But I am simply disgusted in the Selfishness and overall greediness of the people in this Nation. Aren't we suppose to be United, as in the United States? Stop acting like children, and make the choice that will help this nation, instead of just thinking of yourselves and how you can prosper. We're in this thing together, against whatever challenge may come towards us, isn't that what it means to be part of the United States of America?

We're should at least be able to supply the basics of need to people we call our fellow citizen, yes it maybe a few other dollars taken away from you, but do you not see the benefits it will bring? Yes I can see the complaints that some people will mooch off the system, but in this nation there are really people suffering, and because the twisted idealism of this nation that because you don't have a high paying job, your life is an ultimate failure, has produced this dilemma. But I assume the unfortunate always die eventually because of the hands of the selfish.

"We're a Nation... We should start acting like it..."
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
Reaction score
803
Then what about the millions of people who cannot afford insurance, should they just lie down and die because you are unwilling to comitt to the common good?

I don't care?

And this has nothing to do with what the founding fathers meant. All that's relevant is whether or not we want more government involvement in our lives. Which I do not and therefore do not support really anything Obama is doing.

An option would save you money. I don't get where you people get this ridiculous idea that a public option would do anything but provide you with better care and give you an astronomical decrease in the ever-rising premiums of health care.

I do. I don't make a lot of money and I don't really feel like making even less. I don't get where YOU people get this ridiculous idea that just because YOU feel differently, YOU suddenly are completely right in every possible way. It's going to come down to the same shit as every other service that was made under FDR, it's going to run out of money and start to become useless, increase the national debt even more. Obama is focusing on making people happy now, not making anything better in the future. Doctors won't make as much, therefore there won't be many. Why would I go through all of that expensive fucking schooling to get some job that doesn't pay me a lot more than any other job? I personally wouldn't, maybe you would, that's you, not everyone else.

The second someone less radical takes office and the czars leave it's going to all be changed again, and it's going to throw the country into yet another massive power shift and it's going to keep doing it until everyone calms the fuck down and starts to listen to each other instead of saying what I feel is ridiculous; unless both sides agree on what's being changed, it's going to be changed again, and again, and again and become totally pointless and slowly our country isn't going to be any better, politically, than those countries that are constantly having coups. All Obama is going to do with the way he's going at it is force people to either be radical or reactionary, which is just going to fuck a lot of things up.

And according to CNN, 78% people agree with me. But I forgot... it's time we get out of what the founding fathers wanted and drop the majority vote policy, because that's old and needs to be refined to match whatever you want.
 

Seb!

You can change this now in User CP.
Reaction score
144
The second someone less radical takes office and the czars leave it's going to all be changed again, and it's going to throw the country into yet another massive power shift and it's going to keep doing it until everyone calms the fuck down and starts to listen to each other instead of saying what I feel is ridiculous; unless both sides agree on what's being changed, it's going to be changed again, and again, and again and become totally pointless and slowly our country isn't going to be any better, politically, than those countries that are constantly having coups. All Obama is going to do with the way he's going at it is force people to either be radical or reactionary, which is just going to fuck a lot of things up.

Not much of your post makes much sense to me. There will be no tax increase on your tax bracket. You will get affordable health care. You are not a doctor. Stop whining about the taxes or job prospects of a group of people of which you are not a part.

The czars were started under Reagan and were revived under Bush. They are not Russian kings. They are advisors! And I'm saying that it won't be changed, just like Medicare and the Civil Rights Act. They were pushed through by the democrats because the republicans never move for change! A health care option for everyone is not radical. Every other industrialized nation has it!

And according to CNN, 78% people agree with me. But I forgot... it's time we get out of what the founding fathers wanted and drop the majority vote policy, because that's old and needs to be refined to match whatever you want.

There is no majority vote police. This is not a direct democracy. This is a republic: The president is elected by 527 representatives, judges are appointed, and none of the advisors, executive branch officials or bureaucrats are elected by the people.

America chose Obama. Now, just like it's been since the 18th century, the president will use his experience and expert staff of advisors to decide what's best for the country.

That's not a common good, in a common good you get to decide on it (like donating), if your forced to pay, that's another story...

You will not see a tax increase. If you disagree, please show me any clause in any bill in any part of the government that proposes a tax increase on the middle class for the health care plan.

FOX News is turning this into something it's not. You will not have to make ANY sacrifices for this plan!
 

ElderKingpin

Post in the anime section, or die.
Reaction score
134
to clarify, we have a republican democracy, we vote for our representatives, who in turn, represent us
 

Varine

And as the moon rises, we shall prepare for war
Reaction score
803
Not much of your post makes much sense to me. There will be no tax increase on your tax bracket. You will get affordable health care. You are not a doctor. Stop whining about the taxes or job prospects of a group of people of which you are not a part.

I already have health care, and yes it will. Obama may say it won't, but it will because there is no other way to pay for it. And I never said I was a doctor, but a shortage of doctors is going to be an issue because it will be.

There is no majority vote police. This is not a direct democracy. This is a republic: The president is elected by 527 representatives, judges are appointed, and none of the advisors, executive branch officials or bureaucrats are elected by the people.

All of which are in turn operate by the majority rule. They are elected to represent the people. If most of the people disagree with a bill, there is no reason it should pass.

the president will use his experience

What experience?

You will not see a tax increase. If you disagree, please show me any clause in any bill in any part of the government that proposes a tax increase on the middle class for the health care plan.

FOX News is turning this into something it's not. You will not have to make ANY sacrifices for this plan!

FOX has absolutely nothing to do with this. HOW, tell me how, this will be funded if not for taxes that will inevitably be set onto all classes?

And we have a Federal Republic/Representative Democracy, not a Republican Democracy.
 

Seb!

You can change this now in User CP.
Reaction score
144
FOX has absolutely nothing to do with this. HOW, tell me how, this will be funded if not for taxes that will inevitably be set onto all classes?

Ok. Let's take one of the bills that includes a public option in Congress that costs 800-900 billion total, so 80-90 billion a year (this is all here, by the way).

1) 60 billion dollars a year can be gained immediately by removing subsidies from health care companies.

2) The other 30 billion a year can be gained in a number of ways, one way is changing item reduction taxes on 250K< earners so that the discount they receive on making a donation moves from 35%-28%.

So there you go. Doesn't cost you anything.

And we have a Federal Republic/Representative Democracy, not a Republican Democracy.

Republican is the adjective of Republic. It's a combination of a Republic and a Democracy.
 

thewrongvine

The Evolved Panda Commandant
Reaction score
506
A lot of people are lazy...

Then what about the millions of people who cannot afford insurance, should they just lie down and die because you are unwilling to comitt to the common good?
If they are lying down and dying, then they deserve to do so. That's like the story of the kid who was so lazy, all he ever did was sleep on the bed. When his parents had to leave for a week, they left food for him right across the bed. But he wouldn't reach it since he was so lazy, and he just died.
Obviously not everyone, but there are some people who choose that.

~Hai-Bye-Vine~
 

Seb!

You can change this now in User CP.
Reaction score
144
A lot of people are lazy...

Sorry, your post was ridiculous and insulting. As you typed that message on the computer that your mommy bought you, there are billions of people working around the world. Working ten hours day, seventy hour weeks, three-thousand five-hundred hour years, to earn less in their LIFETIME then the smallest percentage of what you were BORN into. Now.. you call people lazy, while you don't even have a full-time job, have never really worked a day in your life? There are people who work three jobs and can't pay the rising cost of health-care premiums. It is expensive. So, Obama proposes removing health care company subsidies to make sure that EVERYONE IN AMERICA has healthcare for free.. and you someone bring up the topic that "a lot of people are lazy"?? This has nothing to do with your taxes! And even if did, you have no right to call people lazy for wanting affordable health care for their overworked family. Your metaphor is also ignorant and over-simplistic.
 

Ghan

Administrator - Servers are fun
Staff member
Reaction score
889
I think that does it for this thread. The point was not to get into arguments that turn into ad hominem attacks. Thanks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.

      The Helper Discord

      Members online

      No members online now.

      Affiliates

      Hive Workshop NUON Dome World Editor Tutorials

      Network Sponsors

      Apex Steel Pipe - Buys and sells Steel Pipe.
      Top