Sci/Tech New IBM computer chip mimics the human brain

[MasterOfRa]

Computers tend to be much more specialized than humans, but better at the tasks they are designed for.

 

[FireCat]

Are you asking if I would give a brain to this "crappy" computer machine? In that case, why not?

That depends what kind of brain you mean

 

[Siretu]

Firecat, you still haven't responded to my first post. What is your opinion on it? http://www.thehelper.net/forums/sho...-mimics-the-human-brain?p=1368815#post1368815

 

[NoobImbaPro]

When I said to give brain to computers, I meant the chip, not the real one.

I think we already have robots stronger/faster/better then the human body, and we probably aren't that far from putting a human brain into controlling such a body either, so it's not giving a crappy computer machine a brain, it's giving a brain a better body (or a person? is a working brain a person?) - next would be somehow getting the "human" brain to be able to "use" it's "infinite memory" such that it can actually remember something for more then 2 seconds without needing it to be "written" 100s of times (how many digits of pi can you memorize? 100? how many can a computer? and how easily can you/the computer do it?) - an apples to apples comparison isn't really possible

Do I have to remember all the pi's numbers??
Is that what matters??
Don't you know that you actually use the 3% of your brain's power??
Don't you know that you can unlock it up to 30%??
Have you seen a robot that can jump 4 meters high and survive??
Have you seen a robot playing piano or badminton??
Have you seen it solving a problem in 2+ ways??
Do you want something that is stronger than you??
If they mimic your thought they will think themselves as better beings and dominate us whenever they want.

A computer is crappy mindless machine. There is no point making it have human brain technology. It just does what a human can't do now but that doesn't mean that they're better.

EDIT: I-robot wasn't a random movie

 

[Varine]

Do I have to remember all the pi's numbers??

Way to avoid the point he's making.

Is that what matters??

To claim infinite memory, yes. What were you doing one year ago today and 10:37 AM?

Don't you know that you actually use the 3% of your brain's power??

That isn't really true,

Don't you know that you can unlock it up to 30%??

See above.

Have you seen a robot that can jump 4 meters high and survive??

Does a robot have to jump 4 meters high and survive? Is that what matters?

Have you seen a robot playing piano or badminton??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPYflSQpYe0

Have you seen it solving a problem in 2+ ways??

Why would it need to solve it in two ways when it can solve it in one?

Do you want something that is stronger than you??

Yes, yes I do want something stronger than me.

 

[FireCat]

Firecat, you still haven't responded to my first post. What is your opinion on it?

Oh dear hehehe

As you said, the brain is just a biological neural network(Although a very complex one) The fact that there are already machines that mimic this on a small scale just tells us that we're getting closer.

Nah. It isn't.. You can't compare with a real brain and a chip brain. And Just because something can mimic neural activity doesn't mean it can think Seriously!
You see, a computer does nothing until you turns it on and inputs some command before It dose executes a programmed response. Right?
And does this ship have self awareness, jealousy, create myth, suffer from boredom.. etc hmm
So how would a computer become competitive with a human brain. eh? "Never be" And btw doctors/crazy scientist only have theories on how the human brain works, no proof.

Well, you see now why a Computers are stupid? Because you still have to tell them what to do.lollol

 

[Dan]

A computer is limited in its abilities. It is true that we can build a computer to compute anything we so desire it to; however, a computer could never desire to compute anything that it was not programmed to compute. Remember to think about a computer as a series of algorithms (the hardware is unimportant for the moment). Algorithms can be made to mimic things, associate things, etc, but they are hard-coded. There is no real true way to build an algorithm that is not hard coded to do whatever it is designed to do. You would essentially have to build an algorithm that builds its own unique and uninfluenced algorithms. To even conceive of how to program such a thing should hurt your brain because it's an extremely complex idea. Computers are bad at making choices. Humans neither make calculated choices 100% of the time, nor do we make completely random choices. We build computers to be predictable and assist with tasks that we cannot do quickly. To be human is to make mistakes and risks. Algorithms cannot do this.

As far as hardware goes, it is entirely possible that we can build some pretty cool computers based on ideas we get from how our brains function. Sevants are capable of computing as fast as a computer, so we know that our brains are capable of speedy, complex computations; but we appear to have blocks involved that keep us from being able to make computations as quickly as we should theoretically be able to. Our memories are also much more amazing that we are even aware of, and in order to unlock parts of our memories, we sometimes have to use hypnosis or other means to unlock its potential. As someone said already, we do only use a small % of our brains' power.

Another thought: I assume that none of you believe that a robot could ever be built that had true emotions. If it were possible to program a computer to have it's own cognitive thoughts and unique emotions, then it would also be possible to write an algorithm that always did the correct thing at the correct time to please our wives. If there is ever an algorithm that can search through every single law that my wife has made for me, cross reference it with all her by-laws and exceptions (some of which have their own by-laws and exceptions) and factor in the time of the month, etc to always be right, then humanity is saved!

 

[NoobImbaPro]

Varine said: Do I have to remember all the pi's numbers??

Way to avoid the point he's making.

Is that what matters??

To claim infinite memory, yes. What were you doing one year ago today and 10:37 AM?

Don't you know that you actually use the 3% of your brain's power??

That isn't really true,

Don't you know that you can unlock it up to 30%??

See above.

Have you seen a robot that can jump 4 meters high and survive??

Does a robot have to jump 4 meters high and survive? Is that what matters?

Have you seen a robot playing piano or badminton??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPYflSQpYe0

Have you seen it solving a problem in 2+ ways??

Why would it need to solve it in two ways when it can solve it in one?

Do you want something that is stronger than you??

Yes, yes I do want something stronger than me.

*To claim infinite memory, yes. What were you doing one year ago today and 10:37 AM?

I was at home preparing myself for the beach. But there are also cameras that do this stuff.

Me: Don't you know that you actually use the 3% of your brain's power??
*That isn't really true

How do you know it? Have you opened any any book rather than twilight and harry potter?

*Does a robot have to jump 4 meters high and survive? Is that what matters?

He claimed they were better(overall?), faster and stronger, so I gave him a question-answer.

Me:Have you seen a robot playing piano or badminton??
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPYflSQpYe0

Can he play this? It's better to see a robot playing piano or him, or another one pianist??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sZK4Hd28VA

*Yes, yes I do want something stronger than me

That isn't really true

*Why would it need to solve it in two ways when it can solve it in one?

When you seek simplicity where you mustn't do, someone needs you to be a undereducated.

 

[Narks]

Another thought: I assume that none of you believe that a robot could ever be built that had true emotions. If it were possible to program a computer to have it's own cognitive thoughts and unique emotions, then it would also be possible to write an algorithm that always did the correct thing at the correct time to please our wives. If there is ever an algorithm that can search through every single law that my wife has made for me, cross reference it with all her by-laws and exceptions (some of which have their own by-laws and exceptions) and factor in the time of the month, etc to always be right, then humanity is saved!

I do believe it is possible to build a machine with true emotions (albeit probably not likely) - by simply creating a machine that mimics all the processes inside the human brain - creating a machine powered human brain. Of course, understanding all the processes in the human mind well enough to mimic is not so simple...

 

[Nigerianrulz]

tbh i think noobimapro is just trolling as goes for those who doubt the ability that computers WILL be capable of. However one thing that they i personally think will never be able to achieve is emotions and that is what will separate humans from machines.

We do not only use 3% of our brain... its a myth and its been disproved by neurologist, a thread about this is somewhere in the news section so maybe we should stop seeing too many hollywood movies such as limitless and believing in them. Computers aren't crappy mindless stupid machines, they are just emotionless machines that are capable of things that will be essential in our future civilization.

 

[Siretu]

Oh dear hehehe


Nah. It isn't.. You can't compare with a real brain and a chip brain. And Just because something can mimic neural activity doesn't mean it can think Seriously!
You see, a computer does nothing until you turns it on and inputs some command before It dose executes a programmed response. Right?
And does this ship have self awareness, jealousy, create myth, suffer from boredom.. etc hmm
So how would a computer become competitive with a human brain. eh? "Never be" And btw doctors/crazy scientist only have theories on how the human brain works, no proof.

Well, you see now why a Computers are stupid? Because you still have to tell them what to do.lollol

You obviously don't have a understanding of programming or specifically AI. This is okay, but I would suggest that you don't argue about such things until you do have an understanding of it.

You're wrong about most of what you're saying. It doesn't have to execute a programmed response in that sense. Using neural networks and genetic algorithms, it's possible for the program to learn. This is called machine learning. This means the program can do stuff that isn't hard-coded into the program. Also, your brain is just a big neural network. As I said before, your brain is nothing special. No magic, no mumbo jumbo, it's something that can be replicated.

No computers doesn't have self-awareness yet not jealousy. I am not sure what you mean by "create myth" but I am sure I could program a program that creates myths if that's what you're asking for.

How would it become competitive with the human brain? It already has better memory than any human being, "faster" brain in terms of calculations. It is not "smart" yet but it's smarter than 50 years ago. We're getting there, the question is just why.

The doctors have more than theories. Even though they don't understand the entire brain as a whole, doesn't mean they don't understand parts of it.

Well, you see now why computers are not stupid? Probably not, because you don't understand enough about the subject.lollol

A computer is limited in its abilities. It is true that we can build a computer to compute anything we so desire it to; however, a computer could never desire to compute anything that it was not programmed to compute. Remember to think about a computer as a series of algorithms (the hardware is unimportant for the moment). Algorithms can be made to mimic things, associate things, etc, but they are hard-coded. There is no real true way to build an algorithm that is not hard coded to do whatever it is designed to do. You would essentially have to build an algorithm that builds its own unique and uninfluenced algorithms. To even conceive of how to program such a thing should hurt your brain because it's an extremely complex idea. Computers are bad at making choices. Humans neither make calculated choices 100% of the time, nor do we make completely random choices. We build computers to be predictable and assist with tasks that we cannot do quickly. To be human is to make mistakes and risks. Algorithms cannot do this.

There is already a field of research in artificial intelligence called machine learning. This is where the AI learns(sometimes from a human and sometimes by itself). Are you claiming this is hard-coded? Do you know there's artificial intelligence that can learn how to play civilization just by reading the manual and UNDERSTANDING it. Nothing was hard-coded from the beginning. The AI knew nothing about cities and rivers and such.

"To be human is to make mistakes and risks". Do you see the fact that the AI would potentially be better at stuff because it doesn't make mistakes as a proof that the AI is limited? I'd say the opposite.

*To claim infinite memory, yes. What were you doing one year ago today and 10:37 AM?

I was at home preparing myself for the beach. But there are also cameras that do this stuff.

Me: Don't you know that you actually use the 3% of your brain's power??
*That isn't really true

How do you know it? Have you opened any any book rather than twilight and harry potter?

*Does a robot have to jump 4 meters high and survive? Is that what matters?

He claimed they were better(overall?), faster and stronger, so I gave him a question-answer.

Me:Have you seen a robot playing piano or badminton??
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPYflSQpYe0

Can he play this? It's better to see a robot playing piano or him, or another one pianist??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sZK4Hd28VA

*Yes, yes I do want something stronger than me

That isn't really true

*Why would it need to solve it in two ways when it can solve it in one?

When you seek simplicity where you mustn't do, someone needs you to be a undereducated.

Sure, you were preparing for the beach. I'm sure you were. The point is that a computer doesn't forget and while it's human to forget, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Memory is just one of the points where computers exceeds humans.

When it comes to brain capacity, you attacked him personally instead of providing a proof of your statement. For the record, I tried googling for something like what you're suggesting but I found nothing interesting. No percentage numbers anyway.

I did find one from yahoo-answers that said that humans just use 10%(not 3) of their brain is a myth and that we use all of it. This however is not really a good source.

I've made a robot myself that can survive a fall from 4 meters. Not only that, but it can also fly. So yeah, it's faster and stronger than me. At least stronger in the sense that it can survive a 4 meter fall better than me. Also, when I say fall, that means the propellers are not spinning to soften the fall.

Sure, the robot pianist is not playing a song that is advanced as the one that you suggest. However, we are not talking about if robots are currently better than humans at all things, just if it's possible in the future. The fact that they can already play piano strongly suggest that they will be able to play piano better in the years to come.

If I want a robot stronger than me? Yes I do and so does Varine. I am sorry, but if you're trying to know what I want, you're obviously wrong. Don't tell US what our opinions are, because they are our opinions, not yours.

Just because a computer solves the problem in one way doesn't mean it is seeking simplicity. You are just using fancy words to make up for the fact that what you're saying is wrong. Also, I could see an AI solve problems in several ways with genetic algorithms so your point is still invalid.

 

[FireCat]

it's possible for the program to learn. This is called machine learning. This means the program can do stuff that isn't hard-coded into the program.

"create myth" but I am sure I could program a program that creates myths if that's what you're asking for.

How would it become competitive with the human brain? It already has better memory than any human being, "faster" brain in terms of calculations. It is not "smart" yet but it's smarter than 50 years ago. We're getting there, the question is just why.

That's pure nonsense. A computer still need to be coded into a program to learn or whatever you want to call it And don't forget human created the computer not on contrary.

Well, you see now why computers are still stupid? Probably, because a computer still wouldn't competitive with the human brain.lollol

 

[YourFace]

That's pure nonsense. A computer still need to be coded into a program to learn or whatever you want to call it And don't forget human created the computer not on contrary.

Well, you see now why computers are still stupid? Probably, because a computer still wouldn't competitive with the human brain.lollol

Firecat, your arguments just show off your ignorance and bigotry. You shouldn't make fun of computers which saves so many people's lives everyday nor
should you say that computers have a limited potential. Learn more before arguing.

 

[FireCat]

They Just can't say it does mimic a human brain, because it doesn't at all. A machine is a machine not a living thing
So you can't really compare or make a chip or whatever and claim is a human brain in a computer or whatever. That's all

 

[Siretu]

That's pure nonsense. A computer still need to be coded into a program to learn or whatever you want to call it And don't forget human created the computer not on contrary.

Well, you see now why computers are still stupid? Probably, because a computer still wouldn't competitive with the human brain.lollol

Yes, the computer still needs to be coded into a program and I have NEVER claimed otherwise. Stating that the computer will just magically start working like a brain is stupid, therefore I didn't say that.

Of course you need to program it to learn, but it's not hard coded. I don't tell it: Learn X or Learn Y. What it learns is not something I tell it, it'll do it by itself and the end result might come as a complete surprise to me even if I coded the program.

They Just can't say it does mimic a human brain, because it doesn't at all. A machine is a machine not a living thing
So you can't really compare or make a chip or whatever and claim is a human brain in a computer or whatever. That's all

Did someone claim that there was a human brain in the computer? No.

How do you define living? If we come across an intelligent being in the universe that is built like a robot, would you argue that it is not intelligent because it's not human?

How can you say that it doesn't mimic a human brain? Mimic basically means "To copy or imitate" and that's what it does. The underlying mechanics in this new computer chip is like a small brain.

Your problem is still that you don't understand that you are JUST a biological machine. You think that because you're alive, you're special and even though your mom might've told you so doesn't mean we wont be able to recreate your intelligence in some time.

I have another curious question for you. Let's say I had a machine that allows me to create stuff down to an atomic level. If I created an entire brain with this, would you argue that it is not alive and that it is not smart?

What if I had great and extensive knowledge on how the brain works and I decided to make a tweaked brain that is much more powerful? Would you argue that it would never be better than our brains?

My point is: What is stopping us from doing this?

1. We don't have a machine that creates stuff down to an atomic level, but our electronics are getting smaller each day. Nano-technology is a big field in science. Do we even need to get down to the atomic level?

2. We don't have great and extensive knowledge on how the brain work. However, we're figuring out more each day so we should have enough knowledge some day.

Maybe you will argue that this wont be a computer, that it will be a living thing and therefore doesn't count? In that case, I'd like to change my argument. I think we will be able to create living things some day(we've already done that though, although it was only a bacteria with a less-than-impressive intelligence)

 

[NoobImbaPro]

FireCat:They Just can't say it does mimic a human brain, because it doesn't at all. A machine is a machine not a living thing
So you can't really compare or make a chip or whatever and claim is a human brain in a computer or whatever. That's all

Agree. It's the raw simple truth.


EDIT:

Sure, you were preparing for the beach. I'm sure you were. The point is that a computer doesn't forget and while it's human to forget, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Memory is just one of the points where computers exceeds humans.

When it comes to brain capacity, you attacked him personally instead of providing a proof of your statement. For the record, I tried googling for something like what you're suggesting but I found nothing interesting. No percentage numbers anyway.

I did find one from yahoo-answers that said that humans just use 10%(not 3) of their brain is a myth and that we use all of it. This however is not really a good source.

I've made a robot myself that can survive a fall from 4 meters. Not only that, but it can also fly. So yeah, it's faster and stronger than me. At least stronger in the sense that it can survive a 4 meter fall better than me. Also, when I say fall, that means the propellers are not spinning to soften the fall.

Sure, the robot pianist is not playing a song that is advanced as the one that you suggest. However, we are not talking about if robots are currently better than humans at all things, just if it's possible in the future. The fact that they can already play piano strongly suggest that they will be able to play piano better in the years to come.

If I want a robot stronger than me? Yes I do and so does Varine. I am sorry, but if you're trying to know what I want, you're obviously wrong. Don't tell US what our opinions are, because they are our opinions, not yours.

Just because a computer solves the problem in one way doesn't mean it is seeking simplicity. You are just using fancy words to make up for the fact that what you're saying is wrong. Also, I could see an AI solve problems in several ways with genetic algorithms so your point is still invalid.

It moves by its own? If you leave it fall, it will understand that he break some of his parts and start it's propellers automatically?
So do you think that it is better than you? Have you seen a man hunted from a dog and jump a 4 meter high wall ?? I saw it live.

And I don't care about US, as I am not American. I care about humanity and myself. If they want something better than us(even in future they won't be better) there is a domination reason, not an improving reason. Making a machine do your work and not its work won't help you, because you won't improve yourself.

I use fancy words?? So what that does mean?? Its a fact that using fancy words is to make a propaganda or something?? Doesn't these "fancy" words hide a truth inside them??

UNDERSTAND IT, YOU ARE THE MOST COMPLEX AND PERFECT BEING IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE, YOU CAN'T CREATE YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING MUCH ABOUT YOURSELF AS A HUMAN BEING !!! (with cheerful pleasant emotion, because you will think I am shouting like punishing someone)

@Nigerianrulz
Hey hey hey, don't misunderstand what I say. Its not a myth man, you only control average the 3-8% of your brain. The more part of the brain you control, the better you are. But there is a limit because about 50% of your brain handles your neurons, the organs (heart, kidney, lungs...) and many other tasks. So gaining access to these brain parts would definitely cause death, because you won't even handle these tasks.
These percent numbers just mean that you use very small part of your brain, I am not so much accurate and I don't want to be, I just say them because I want you to get the idea.
Einstein is said to have used about 15-20% of his brain. So he remembered then what he's done the previous year at 10:34 am??
He did another thing, he pushed humanity a step forward to find what we truly are.
And I will say again and again a Computer is a tool, a mindless machine, a dumb machine, go to every programmer/computer mechanist and ask him if I am wrong. It just only understands 0 and 1. Don't fuse emotions with that thing.
It's my opinion that I don't want a computer that simulates emotions and human brain.
It's so useless, like making cars for chicken.

 

[Siretu]

Yet again you're just repeating what you've previously said, ignoring all previous responses to that.

Edit:

It moves by its own? If you leave it fall, it will understand that he break some of his parts and start it's propellers automatically?
So do you think that it is better than you? Have you seen a man hunted from a dog and jump a 4 meter high wall ?? I saw it live.

That was not the original question, but Yes, I can make it move on it's own and yes, I can make it start it's propellers automatically if I leave it to fall.

What is your point?

 

[Varine]

I was at home preparing myself for the beach. But there are also cameras that do this stuff.

Not good enough. What beach? What were you wearing? What color? What car were you planning on taking? Who else was there? Also you're not doing a very good job arguing your side already.

How do you know it? Have you opened any any book rather than twilight and harry potter?

I know it's not true because I'm not a moron.

He claimed they were better(overall?), faster and stronger, so I gave him a question-answer.

And you didn't answer mine at all.

Can he play this? It's better to see a robot playing piano or him, or another one pianist??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sZK4Hd28VA

I'm sure it could, but now since you're getting overly specific in a poor attempt to get over on me, can YOU play that? Do you know anyone that can? Even if you say yes I won't believe you by the way, I'll just change what I want to see to something stupid so you can't find it.

Taking into consideration how early it is in the development of robots I don't see why you except one to show up at this point in time; one certainly will in a few years.

That isn't really true

That is most definitely true. I assure you, I hired people faster and stronger than me to carry drywall into the house when I was doing some work to it. Also I thoroughly enjoy my car, which is both.

When you seek simplicity where you mustn't do, someone needs you to be a undereducated.

Shitty quote for a lack of proper retort.

 

[Slapshot136]

let me try and shorten this discussion:

humans haven't made any major changes to themselves over the last few thousand years, only to their environment - if you took a perfectly preserved baby from 3000 years ago or so, you could raise them to be "normal"

robots and computers on the other hand have improved exponentially - true, until now, none of them have "thought" and have all been "programmed to react to certain phenomenon", but at a basic level, isn't that also what humans do? (phenomenon: your hungry; reaction: you find food to eat) - etc. - now apply the same exponential growth to that, and I don't see "thinking computers" as that far away, as there is nothing really impossible about it - now sure, it won't see mainstream use for quite some time due to costs/etc, but it will be there

either way, the point of the article is that it hasn't existed yet, but now it does - so you can't really compare it to existing computers

 

[NoobImbaPro]

Not good enough. What beach? What were you wearing? What color? What car were you planning on taking? Who else was there? Also you're not doing a very good job arguing your side already.

I remember everything. Don't tell me how. The question opened my mind, like it was yesterday.

I know it's not true because I'm not a moron.

Holy cr*p who said you're moron?? Moron isn't related to his brain capabilities, moron is from the way he learned to understand things.

Just see the overall quality of a person and a robot, nowadays. Think of it and post here in 20 years from now. I bet nothing will be changed at all. We will be better than robot every time, because we have to have the power to manipulate them.
When something is claimed as powerful to the full potential of the word's meaning, it doesn't have only to be better from something but it must handle and control and acknowledge itself/herself/himself. Do you think we can create a perfect robot like us? We make mistakes, and mistake in the algorithm of this being may cause severe damage to us.

You will never reach the perfect witch is us, so comparing us with "them" is such a nonsense.

So many thoughts come from my experience and can't handle the flow of my thoughts. So you may see totally different thing in each sentence
My minor dyslexia enhances that problem.

Siretu: What is your point?

It's not clever as it has no human brain capabilities. That's all