New iMacs!

[Icyculyr]

I find it funny that after someone disproves your point, which you claim you can back up, you change what your point is. I'm not trying to be mean here, just pointing out something very commonly flawed about your arguments.

My point never changed. I just worded it wrong, it's not what I meant. You can't build the same computer much cheaper. I'm aware as are all of you are the pro's of building your own computer vs buying an iMac, an all-in-one, or even a pre-built desktop. You could choose a lower resolution screen, a better GPU, a smaller hard drive, more RAM, etc., just however you want it.

That being said, Apple has been doing better about pricing their computers. I'll agree with you that many all-in-one computers are bad in comparison, this is why so many of us choose to build our machines.

Yeah, there aren't any all-in-one's that have decent graphic cards. I'm looking forward to seeing some benchies from the 6970M and also overclockability.

 

[Samuraid]

You can't build the same computer much cheaper.

Correct, because you cannot even build a Mac.
You can, however, build a better computer for the same (or less).

What do I mean by better?

• Significantly faster CPU performance
• Significantly faster graphics performance
• More storage/RAM
• Faster disks
• More expandable

The only thing that is arguably better is the appearance of a Mac. If a significant price premium is worth it to you as far as appearance goes, then that's your call.

 

[Icyculyr]

Correct, because you cannot even build a Mac.
You can, however, build a better computer for the same (or less).

What do I mean by better?

• Significantly faster CPU performance
• Significantly faster graphics performance
• More storage/RAM
• Faster disks
• More expandable

The only thing that is arguably better is the appearance of a Mac. If a significant price premium is worth it to you as far as appearance goes, then that's your call.

I'm aware of that. But if you were to spec up the parts in the iMac for yourself you'd find yourself saving very little, if any at all. Can you really say Apple is overcharging when you can't save more than $100, if that, by buying the same parts?

And I'm referring to building a PC with the specs of the iMac. As I said, we all know the pro's of a self built (i.e, what you wrote which is similar to what I said). You could spend another $200 and get a 6970 instead of a 6850, etc. You can customize it how you want.

If you're buying an iMac you have to be happy getting what you're getting. If you want a more powerful graphics card and a smaller screen there's nothing you can do about it so you'd have to go else where.

 

[thewrongvine]

Icyculyr, you're a smart guy, why do you enjoy Mac's so much?
(rhetorical question, because I know you will give a legitimate answer, ha)

 

[Samuraid]

I'm aware of that. But if you were to spec up the parts in the iMac for yourself you'd find yourself saving very little, if any at all. Can you really say Apple is overcharging when you can't save more than $100, if that, by buying the same parts?

The parts list you quoted before is more expensive than an equivalent build. The margin is not $100, it's more.

And I'm referring to building a PC with the specs of the iMac. As I said, we all know the pro's of a self built (i.e, what you wrote which is similar to what I said). You could spend another $200 and get a 6970 instead of a 6850, etc. You can customize it how you want.

If you're buying an iMac you have to be happy getting what you're getting. If you want a more powerful graphics card and a smaller screen there's nothing you can do about it so you'd have to go else where.

Fair enough. I think Apple builds good quality computers.
I just cannot personally justify the price difference, and there is absolutely no way around the fact that they cost more than equivalent custom builds, regardless of how you look at it.

 

[Icyculyr]

Icyculyr, you're a smart guy, why do you enjoy Mac's so much?
(rhetorical question, because I know you will give a legitimate answer, ha)

I can't tell if this is sarcasm / mockery or not. But why? Well, it's rather a long explanation. A lot of it has to do with the OS, also the build of the machines.

The parts list you quoted before is more expensive than an equivalent build. The margin is not $100, it's more.

What did I list that you could get for less?

Fair enough. I think Apple builds good quality computers.
I just cannot personally justify the price difference, and there is absolutely no way around the fact that they cost more than equivalent custom builds, regardless of how you look at it.

They don't cost more than equivalent custom builds. What exactly did I list that you could get for less? Perhaps the screen, you could buy the Dell 27" instead of Apple's and that'll save you $100.

 

[Samuraid]

I don't dispute you have more flexibility and expandability with building your own machine. You can get what you need and also replace parts when they become outdated. Not to mention you can OC the CPU and GPU (can only OC the GPU in a Mac).

My point is, Apple isn't overcharging. You couldn't really buy those parts individually for much less. They do overcharge for the upgrades a bit though.

That isn't to say that building a machine isn't better value for you than buying an iMac, or an all-in-one, or even a pre-built. But that doesn't make that machine "overpriced".

Here's an example:

• 27" 2560x1440 IPS display: $1000
• Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz: $190
• Radeon HD 6970M 1GB (HD 6850): $170
• 1TB 7200RPM HDD: $60
• 4GB 1333MHz RAM: $40
• Motherboard: $100
• Power Supply: ~$60
• Bluetooth+Wireless+DVD drive: $50
• Peripherals: $100
• Casing: $100

Total: $1870. Apple charges $1999. That's not including the OS, or any fans, heat-sinks, and other little tidbits which you'd have to buy to build your own rig. You could add +$100 for Mac OS (the price of Windows 7 HP) and that'd bring it to $1970.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm / mockery or not. But why? Well, it's rather a long explanation. A lot of it has to do with the OS, also the build of the machines.

What did I list that you could get for less?

They don't cost more than equivalent custom builds. What exactly did I list that you could get for less? Perhaps the screen, you could buy the Dell 27" instead of Apple's and that'll save you $100.

The screen is not $1000. It's $840. Check out Ghan's build. (also, the 27" carries such a price premium for barely any extra it's decidedly a waste of money, but that's beside the point)
The 6970M is slower than a desktop 6850. Try a 5770 or a GTX460 768 MB. The former can be had for under $100.
Peripherals are not $100. I'm sure you'll disagree, but in my honest opinion the extra money is really not buying you much.
Casing can be had for less. Actually, the PSU can be had for less as well if you shop around. (I'm talking namebrand 80+ such as corsair/silverstone/antec, not cheap quality)
Price is hanging out in the $1600 range now.
And that doesn't take into account the shopping around, the deals, the coupons, and the combos I would use to bring the price lower.
Even without all that, we're looking at approximately $400 less.
And as you mentioned, once you throw in upgrades, the price/performance gap widens even more.

 

[Icyculyr]

The 6970M is slower than a desktop 6850. Try a 5770 or a GTX460 768 MB. The former can be had for under $100.

It's only a little slower. From what I know the only difference is that the 6970M runs at 680MHz while the 6850 runs at 775MHz. Plus, those two cards you mentioned don't support DX11 IIRC.

And that doesn't take into account the shopping around, the deals, the coupons, and the combos I would use to bring the price lower.

That's fair enough.

Let's revise then:

• 27" 2560x1440 IPS display: $840
• Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz: $190
• Radeon HD 6970M 1GB (HD 6850): $170
• 1TB 7200RPM HDD: $60
• 4GB 1333MHz RAM: $40
• Motherboard: $135
• Power Supply: $50
• Bluetooth+Wireless+DVD drive: $40
• Peripherals: $60
• Wireless keyboard & mouse: $50
• OS: $100
• Casing: $80

Total comes to $1815.

Keep in mind Apple's iMac has a fantastic case made out of Aluminum and the IPS screen has edge-to-edge glass, it's not the cheap stuff. You're also paying a bit for the form factor, too.

I really doubt you'll pick up a good set of speakers for $60, but for the sake of argument I've put the peripherals at $60. I also don't think you'll get a good case for $80 either, yet alone one for an i7 2600. I looked at 1155 mobo's and upped the price to $135, you won't really find a P67/H67 with four ram slots for less than that. The iMac uses a Z68 chipset which isn't released yet.

 

[Samuraid]

It's only a little slower. From what I know the only difference is that the 6970M runs at 680MHz while the 6850 runs at 775MHz. Plus, those two cards you mentioned don't support DX11 IIRC.

All the GeForce 400 series support DirectX11, as do all the Radeon 5000 series.

As for the speed of the 6970M.

"AMD Radeon HD 6970M...3D performance lies between the GeForce GTX 470M and 485M in the high end class of notebook graphic cards. In our tests the 6970M was on average 33% faster than a GeForce GTX 480M. The newer GTX 485M is still about 12% faster than the AMD card. Compared to the previous generation ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5870, the Radeon 6970M is about 50% faster, but also need more electric power."

So, the 6970M is slightly slower than a GTX 485M.

Now, let's look at the GTX 485M:

Compared to desktop graphics cards, the [GTX 485M] performance should be on par with a GeForce GTX 460 768MB which features less cores but a higher clock rate.

The GTX460 768MB in the same ballpark as a Radeon 5770. Pick either one, really.

Let's revise then:

• 27" 2560x1440 IPS display: $840
• Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz: $190
• Radeon HD 6970M 1GB (HD 6850): $170
• 1TB 7200RPM HDD: $60
• 4GB 1333MHz RAM: $40
• Motherboard: $135
• Power Supply: $50
• Bluetooth+Wireless+DVD drive: $40
• Peripherals: $60
• Wireless keyboard & mouse: $50
• OS: $100
• Casing: $80

Total comes to $1815.

You are increasing some numbers now. Stop that.

Let's try this:

• 27" 2560x1440 IPS display: $840
• Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz: $190
• Radeon HD 6970M 1GB (HD 5770/GTX 460 768MB): $100
• 1TB 7200RPM HDD: $60
• 4GB 1333MHz RAM: $40
• Motherboard: $100
• Power Supply: $50
• Bluetooth+Wireless+DVD drive: $40
• Peripherals: $60
• Wireless keyboard & mouse: $50
• OS: $100
• Casing: $80

Total comes to $1710. That doesn't take into account any discounts or combo deals (which would absolutely be part of any custom build).

Keep in mind Apple's iMac has a fantastic case made out of Aluminum and the IPS screen has edge-to-edge glass, it's not the cheap stuff. You're also paying a bit for the form factor, too.

The form factor apparently costs too much.

I really doubt you'll pick up a good set of speakers for $60, but for the sake of argument I've put the peripherals at $60. I also don't think you'll get a good case for $80 either, yet alone one for an i7 2600. I looked at 1155 mobo's and upped the price to $135, you won't really find a P67/H67 with four ram slots for less than that. The iMac uses a Z68 chipset which isn't released yet.

I don't think apple sells any speakers that I would consider "good" by any stretch of the word. If you are talking about the built-in speakers, then you can find similar quality in a $10 pair of desktop speakers, or even integrated monitor speakers. I gave you $60 for free by leaving it in the list.

Z68 is a nice bonus...if you are using integrated graphics and also want to overclock. Is Apple factory overclocking their CPUs? They aren't. Surely they are using the SSD caching functionality? They aren't doing that either.

So really, no bonus in these models for using a Z68 over a P67.

 

[Icyculyr]

All the GeForce 400 series support DirectX11, as do all the Radeon 5000 series.

Ah okay.

As for the speed of the 6970M.


So, the 6970M is slightly slower than a GTX 485M.

Now, let's look at the GTX 485M:

The GTX460 768MB in the same ballpark as a Radeon 5770. Pick either one, really.

First of all the GTX 460 768MB is much better than the 5770. Look here at Dirt 2 at 1200p: link

And now look at the 6970M here: link

Scroll down a little and look at the chart. See how they're almost identical?

The 6970M is the same as the desktop 6850 but with lower clocks. The 6970M should be about 10% slower, 15% at most, based on the clock speed differences.

I'll have more accurate results which I can post if you like once the 6970M in the iMac is benchmarked thoroughly.

You are increasing some numbers now. Stop that.

I also decreased quite a few, too.

Find me an 1155 socket P67/H67 mobo with four RAM slots for $100. The cheapest I could find was $135. Also noticed you put $100 as the price when the cheapest GTX 460 is about $150 and the cheapest 5770 (despite being not as good) is $110.

Let's try this:

• 27" 2560x1440 IPS display: $840
• Intel Core i5 2400 3.1GHz: $190
• Radeon HD 6970M 1GB (HD 5770/GTX 460 768MB): $100
• 1TB 7200RPM HDD: $60
• 4GB 1333MHz RAM: $40
• Motherboard: $100
• Power Supply: $50
• Bluetooth+Wireless+DVD drive: $40
• Peripherals: $60
• Wireless keyboard & mouse: $50
• OS: $100
• Casing: $80

Total comes to $1710. That doesn't take into account any discounts or combo deals (which would absolutely be part of any custom build).

That's true.

I, personally, am happy to pay $200 for the iMac over my own custom build which would neither have a screen as nice, nor the form factor. By the time I factor in all the other tidbits, the time, and the fact that I'm getting a screen that isn't as nice, etc., it's not worth my building it.

I don't think apple sells any speakers that I would consider "good" by any stretch of the word. If you are talking about the built-in speakers, then you can find similar quality in a $10 pair of desktop speakers, or even integrated monitor speakers. I gave you $60 for free by leaving it in the list.

Have you even heard speakers in the 27" iMac? I have, and the quality is pretty good. That $60 also covers a mic (~$10?) and an HD widescreen webcam ($?).

Z68 is a nice bonus...if you are using integrated graphics and also want to overclock. Is Apple factory overclocking their CPUs? They aren't. Surely they are using the SSD caching functionality? They aren't doing that either.

So really, no bonus in these models for using a Z68 over a P67.

They could enable the use of SSD caching later, could they not? Also, are they the only benefits of the Z68? Have they even announced everything about it yet? I don't think so.

 

[Vestras]

Form factor? Seriously?

 

[sqrage]

Form factor? Seriously?

Don't really see what's wrong with that opinion

 

[Vestras]

Don't really see what's wrong with that opinion

Form as in the shape of the screen right?

 

[sqrage]

Form as in the shape of the screen right?

The whole computer is just the monitor. There's no tower. It really is a big deal, although probably not quite justified by the price, but it's similar to comparing a laptop to a desktop.

 

[Ghan]

I think I have sufficiently proved my point - I did not try to get something cheaper, but I got something that has significantly better parts for the same price as the iMac. For me, that is more than enough to make me want to build my own computer (aside from the fact that it's fun to do so ) over buying an Apple product, regardless of the fact that I don't really care for MacOS.

 

[Icyculyr]

I think I have sufficiently proved my point - I did not try to get something cheaper, but I got something that has significantly better parts for the same price as the iMac. For me, that is more than enough to make me want to build my own computer (aside from the fact that it's fun to do so ) over buying an Apple product, regardless of the fact that I don't really care for MacOS.

Yeah, you've got the flexibility to build something better that isn't too much more expensive. Which is a good idea if you're not interested in the all-in-one form factor and want more than what it offers.

I just want to see how well the 6970M overclocks

 

[ReVolver]

I think I have sufficiently proved my point - I did not try to get something cheaper, but I got something that has significantly better parts for the same price as the iMac. For me, that is more than enough to make me want to build my own computer (aside from the fact that it's fun to do so ) over buying an Apple product, regardless of the fact that I don't really care for MacOS.

So you have the money to get the iMac or build your own with better parts...

I think the choice is obvious here :] +agree

 

[Samuraid]

Ah okay.

First of all the GTX 460 768MB is much better than the 5770. Look here at Dirt 2 at 1200p: link

And now look at the 6970M here: link

Scroll down a little and look at the chart. See how they're almost identical?

The 6970M is the same as the desktop 6850 but with lower clocks. The 6970M should be about 10% slower, 15% at most, based on the clock speed differences.

I'll have more accurate results which I can post if you like once the 6970M in the iMac is benchmarked thoroughly.

Well, here's a direct comparison: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/296?vs=315
It looks like the 6970M fits in between them. Tell you what: we'll increase the cost of the video card in my build to $150 to pay for a GTX460 768MB. That will beat the 6970M and only cost $50 more than the 5770.

Find me an 1155 socket P67/H67 mobo with four RAM slots for $100. The cheapest I could find was $135. Also noticed you put $100 as the price when the cheapest GTX 460 is about $150 and the cheapest 5770 (despite being not as good) is $110.

First, 4 slots of RAM is irrelevant. You've been talking this whole time about 4GB of RAM, so having 4 slots is a supreme waste. Even if you wanted 8GB of RAM, two 4GB modules are still an excellent deal (can be had in the low $60's for the pair of them if you catch them on the right week). I know you're going to say "but what about expandability? The Mac can go to four DIMMs". Well, that bumps your cost up $600, so don't bother with that argument.

I, personally, am happy to pay $240 for the iMac over my own custom build which would have a comparable (and standalone) screen, but arguably not as nice of a form factor. By the time I factor in all the other tidbits, the time, and the fact that I'm getting a comparable (and standalone) screen, etc., it's not worth my building it.

Fixed that for you.

Have you even heard speakers in the 27" iMac? I have, and the quality is pretty good. That $60 also covers a mic (~$10?) and an HD widescreen webcam ($?).

I have not heard the new iMac (have you?). I have, however, heard the speakers in a recent iMac model (2009-2010).
As far as integrated speakers go, they sounded fine. Compared with basic desktop speakers, the iMac sounded lackluster. Compared with any real audio system, the iMac sounded cheap and very inadequate; hence my comparison with a $10 pair of desktop speakers.

They could enable the use of SSD caching later, could they not? Also, are they the only benefits of the Z68? Have they even announced everything about it yet? I don't think so.

Intel has announced the specs for Z68 a few months ago and many hardware review sites have covered it already. Apple might use SSD caching, but (you guessed it), SSDs are an upgrade. And you yourself spoke out against upgrades for this comparison. Besides, apple charges $500 for an SSD.

In the custom build, if one wanted, one could change any component in the build after the fact. Anything can be upgraded. The computer is not married to the screen. (in fact, no parts are married to each other at all. )

 

[Icyculyr]

Well, here's a direct comparison: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/296?vs=315
It looks like the 6970M fits in between them. Tell you what: we'll increase the cost of the video card in my build to $150 to pay for a GTX460 768MB. That will beat the 6970M and only cost $50 more than the 5770.

Haha, fair enough. The 6970M is identical to the 6850 desktop aside from about ~12% lower clock speeds, so I expect results about ~12% less. We'll see soon enough the actual performance.

First, 4 slots of RAM is irrelevant. You've been talking this whole time about 4GB of RAM, so having 4 slots is a supreme waste. Even if you wanted 8GB of RAM, two 4GB modules are still an excellent deal (can be had in the low $60's for the pair of them if you catch them on the right week). I know you're going to say "but what about expandability? The Mac can go to four DIMMs". Well, that bumps your cost up $600, so don't bother with that argument.

It does matter as it allows for more RAM. Anyway, try and find me a P67 mobo then that is less than $135?

Fixed that for you.

No, the $860 screen isn't as good (to me). No edge to edge glass, not LED-backlit, not glossy, lower brightness, not for me. I've got a big 30" matte ACD sitting across from me, it's great but I still prefer my display.

And did I understand that right: you think the all-in-one form factor is rubbish?

I have not heard the new iMac (have you?). I have, however, heard the speakers in a recent iMac model (2009-2010).
As far as integrated speakers go, they sounded fine. Compared with basic desktop speakers, the iMac sounded lackluster. Compared with any real audio system, the iMac sounded cheap and very inadequate; hence my comparison with a $10 pair of desktop speakers.

No, but I do have a 27" 2009 model. Did you hear a 21.5" 09/10 model or a 27" model? I think the latter is better, although I could be wrong.

>>>>>

The closest benchmarks we have so far are for BFBC2 at 1440p w/ max graphic settings except for effects which was on medium, and with 2x MSAA, 4xAF, HBAO off. The average looked to be about 40 FPS, as high as 50 and as low as 25 in some crunching scenes. Turning AA to 1x should bump that frame rate much higher.

I'm quite happy with that, seeing as my 09 iMac gets about 10 FPS with those settings. Tis' a welcome upgrade. What I really want to see is Crysis 2 at 1440p on 'High'.

 

[codemonkey]

Anyway, try and find me a P67 mobo then that is less than $135?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157249 $120
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128487 $110
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130576 $105