Obama Healthcare plain and simple.

[BlowingKush]

Thank god for Reconciliation.

This is passing regardless of what Republicans think, and in all sincerity,
they can kiss my ass.

Spoiler

 

[Ghan]

I am firmly of the opinion that healthcare ought not fall under the duties of what an ideal government does. A government's purpose is to protect the negative rights of its citizens, and healthcare is not a fundamental right.
Further, I am also firmly of the opinion that the United States government providing healthcare is a direct violation of the Constitution. The closest anyone can come to justifying it is the "general welfare" clause of the Preamble, yet it seems quite clear to me that those are not powers granted to the federal government. Said powers are enumerated very clearly later on in the document and it should not be construed to be understood that anything said anywhere else falls under the purview of the federal government. According to the 10th Amendment, those powers which are not specifically delegated to the federal government are left to the states or the people.

That is all.

 

[BlowingKush]

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


The General Welfare of the United States. Healthcare is general welfare.
Only a small % of people would disagree, and these are typically uneducated,
or stubborn right wing conservatives who will make every last attempt to argue otherwise.
Usually Palin supporters, people who believe that global warming is cyclical or the earth is flat.

And secondly, the goverment is NOT providing Healthcare. They are providing regulation, which in turn private organizations adhere to.

In all honesty, I do not care about opinion anymore.
Opinion is just a barrier to progress, and really i just want to gloat, and throw this in the Republicans face, who again are gonna take another blow and there is nothing they can do about it.

Look out Republicans. Socialism here we come. Big Bad Socialism. Oh ya, and a black guy is forcing it on you. A celebrity black guy.....

 

[Ghan]

Let's start with this notion of general welfare. And first let us bring a definition:

"the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity"

I consider it quite an insane proposition to expect the government to be obligated to uphold this for the citizens of the US. This would obligate the federal government to step in if I was unhappy because I a didn't win a game on Battlenet. Or if I wasn't able to afford to buy a new game that I really want.
I think it much more likely that the intent of the Founders in inserting that statement there was to provide elasticity in terms of what things the government might need to do to provide protection for the rights of its citizens in the future since they would not be around to decide what might need to be done in a given situation. I find your use of the word here abusive to say the least, and I am not convinced by your argument.

> Only a small % of people would disagree, and these are typically uneducated

I won't comment on your ad-hominem attack except to say that I disagree.

> They are providing regulation

If you believe that that is all Obama wants to do with this bill or that such things are all that exist in such a bill, you are deluding yourself. This bill would render insurance companies private in name only. In its current form this bill would require citizens to get insurance whether they want it or not (imagine if the government forced you to buy another good such as a house or a car regardless of what you thought on the matter). It also will give the government, not the consumer or the provider, the decision on what kind of care will be provided to the patient.

This is another aspect where I fail to see the Constitutionality. I have a feeling that the drafters of the Constitution would be simply appalled to hear what the government is trying to do in this country today. But anyway, I think I'm done here - I've made my point and further participation will only depress me further to see how far we have come from what once made this country great.

 

[uberfoop]

The General Welfare of the United States. Healthcare is general welfare.
Only a small % of people would disagree, and these are typically uneducated,
or stubborn right wing conservatives who will make every last attempt to argue otherwise.
Usually Palin supporters, people who believe that global warming is cyclical or the earth is flat.

Actually, to the best of our knowledge, whether or not you consider anthropogenic effects to be significant, global temperature increases do seem to be a cyclic event, hence the term Interglacial.

I consider it quite an insane proposition to expect the government to be obligated to uphold this for the citizens of the US. This would obligate the federal government to step in if I was unhappy because I a didn't win a game on Battlenet. Or if I wasn't able to afford to buy a new game that I really want.
I think it much more likely that the intent of the Founders in inserting that statement there was to provide elasticity in terms of what things the government might need to do to provide protection for the rights of its citizens in the future since they would not be around to decide what might need to be done in a given situation. I find your use of the word here abusive to say the least, and I am not convinced by your argument.

Precisely, which is why we have the Federal Government to make practical decisions, such as to NOT interpret the statement to mean 'help this guy when he loses on bnet.'
And right now, health care is widely considered to be a 'protection' which is likely within the governments ability to provide in a beneficial and practical way.

Besides, it doesn't really matter what the froodlenutzsky the founding fathers 'intended'. They based their assumptions on the realities of a world from before nukes, the internet, or modern healthcare programs existed.




I'm not saying that the modern government is necissarily 'correct', I'm simply arguing that the world changes, and sticking by old rules in an irreversibly new game is not necessarily the best option either.

 

[DDRtists]

I'm completely with Ghan on this one... :thdown:

 

[Sintoras]

It works fine where I come from. National healthcare that is.

 

[Azlier]

Why can't the government provide something better like free education?

The people who have that education will actually be able to afford good health care. Seems alright.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hmm, first of: I am not from the united states. I live in germany and we got mandatory healthcare here for almost a century. In fact, there is even a minimal income limit for private health insurance.
Although the german healthcare system is far from being perfect (we have the issue of "two class medicine" here ... which means that people that have a private insurance almost always get better treatment), I'd say that a mandatory healthcare for all people of an advanced nation is a good thing.

Seriously, I sometimes don't understand americans. In terms of social and insurance systems, the united states are antiquated - And instead of accepting modernizing procedures, lots of americans are just walling against it.

 

[Vestras]

In Denmark we have a brilliant healthcare system. Let me give you a real life example:
I just broke my leg 2 weeks ago, in Austria. I broke the biggest bone in the leg. When this happened, I got transported down to the nearest lift and then driven to the hospital by an ambulance. When I got to the hospital, I went through the generic stuff they do when something is broken. (e.g x-ray) The day after I was being transported home, first with a taxi to München, then via plane home to Denmark. Since I my whole leg was immobilized I had to have a lot of people helping me, constantly. I think 50+ people helped me that day.

When we came home, we calculated how much it would've costed us if there was no such thing as healthcare. It would've become about 200.000 DKK (~40.000$) easily. Hell, I might even have been dead since we were going off pist. In most cases, a generic family would've been ruined if they should pay that kind of money.

You might not like healthcare in the beginning, but I am sure that at some point in your life you or someone near you will have an accident like mine and you will be very happy that healthcare exists. That is what happened to me.

That is all.

 

[Miz]

I am glad this statement has come in, though I don't usually like the idea of partisanship and believe each congressmen should vote depending on who he/she is suppose to represent. But this is getting ridiculous.

As much as the conservatives, and upper class may cringe at the ideal of higher taxes to pay for Health Care. Most of this philosophy and thinking comes from the early Industrial Ages, and I am not saying all believe in this, but its the thought that "I am rich, thus I have worked harder" (which may be the case or you could have inherited money). "And as you are poorer than me, you should work harder". Capitalism is the right choice of economy for our nation. But this doesn't mean we have to believe in a savage, and heartless century old concept and selfish ideal.

We should all believe in that every citizen in our nation should be able to receive what he or she needs to live. Medicine and Health Care is up in the primary needs of the 21st Century.

So, Healthcare/Welfare is the correct and right path. Equality to all, and will help everyone in the long run. The so-called "Trickle-up effect". So why it may seem difficult right now. Remember; The right choice to make is almost never easy...

 

[Ninva]

I once agreed with you, Miz, but now I worry about taxes. I'm happy about helping others, but I do not like the idea that I'm owned by the government. This is a reference to the income tax. Once the government starts taking money out for health... I just don't know. Maybe this is a good thing.

 

[Ghan]

Gah.

The reason charities exist are to help other people. That is all find and good. I support charities. They are a good influence to have.
However, government doing what charities do is a very BAD thing. The reason for this is that in order for the government to help people, what does it do? It puts a gun to your head and says, "Hand over some of the money that YOU have earned so that we can help out Bob who just got a large medical bill. And doesn't have an much money as you." I believe this is fundamentally wrong and that it infringes on too many rights of the people.

 

[DDRtists]

The reason charities exist are to help other people. That is all find and good. I support charities. They are a good influence to have.
However, government doing what charities do is a very BAD thing. The reason for this is that in order for the government to help people, what does it do? It puts a gun to your head and says, "Hand over some of the money that YOU have earned so that we can help out Bob who just got a large medical bill. And doesn't have an much money as you." I believe this is fundamentally wrong and that it infringes on too many rights of the people.

I'm also all for charities, and even more so for childrens charities, but I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for someone elses medical bills via taxes. If it was a reasonable amount and perhaps they lowered the amount of another tax to compensate, I'd be all for it. However, we already pay tons of taxes, we don't need another one, thats just going to make the economy go to hell even more than it is now.

That, and if I knew that it was being used to help people that are trying to get things better in their life and just currently don't have the money, I'd be more for it. But I don't want to have to pay for people getting shot from bad drug deals, people going through rehab and medical treatment for drug addiction, and just thugs and lowlifes that are just abusing the free medical treatment system. It's like that with welfare already, thats a great example of why I don't like the idea.

Sure, there are people that need and should get the help, but there are so many that are going to abuse it, and the people that deserve to have help already get help from charities in the current system...

 

[Whitesock]

If the government controls health care then A. Our debt will skyrocket and B. It will take a much longer time to be treated, most operations that you would pay out of pocket for that would help you fully recover most likely wouldn't happen.

Vest, I get that you seem to think healthcare is working great in your country, and if it is then that is great for you, but the U.S. is a much larger country than any country in Europe, and the fact that we would have to cover an exponentially greater population with full healthcare just isn't feasible in my opinion.

 

[Ninva]

You've all made very, very good points. I'm absorbing it all. Mhmmmm, learning.

 

[Vestras]

> I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for someone elses medical bills via taxes

But what if that someone else suddenly was your mom or someone else close to you? What if your mom got cancer, and you just spent money on a new bike. Luckily there was healthcare taxes that you have payed every month, which means that your mom can be treated.

> It will take a much longer time to be treated

This is true. Even in a small country like Denmark the waiting queues are far too long. Everytime I go to the hospital I have to just WAIT 3 hours or more, however in Austria when I broke my leg I didn't wait at all, and the operation only took 1 hour. I wonder how they do that...

> Vest, I get that you seem to think healthcare is working great in your country, and if it is then that is great for you, but the U.S. is a much larger country than any country in Europe, and the fact that we would have to cover an exponentially greater population with full healthcare just isn't feasible in my opinion.

This is true, haven't that about that... Hmmm...

All in all I agree with Miz, however a Ninva said, you have made good points...

 

[sqrage]

Meh Idk, but like said, it'd be the upper class paying for the middle class. I think upper class people make enough to give a lil bit to help the middle folks. You're really not upper class just cuz you work harder, it's usually cuz you know the right people and went to the right schools and were brought up in the right neighborhood. Trust me, lower class people work much harder than upper class a lot of the time and not to mention they do physically exhausting work.

 

[ElderKingpin]

but my dad is in the upper class area, yet he barely has enough time to do anything. He works every day including Sundays.

 

[MasterOfABCs]

This country needs insurance reform, not nationalized health-care.