Obama Healthcare plain and simple.

[Zakyath]

Health-care works. USA doesn't. Stop giving the army money, and give it to the people = no more taxes, happier population. No one wants to invade and take over the states. Everyone hates America but americans.

Point is, your government is doing the wrong priorities. I'm positive you could lower the taxes and still make your country a better place - possibly with health-care.

 

[ReVolver]

I'm considered low class in America, I work hard to get my health care insurance, I make the minimum in California, I manage myself even if I don't get any help. The problem people are having is that they always want the easy way out. The harder you work the more you can move your way up, some people inherit the wealth and those people don't need to be in this conversation. There's plenty of places that help people who have little money to offer, those insurances are usually enough to cover you.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

However, government doing what charities do is a very BAD thing. The reason for this is that in order for the government to help people, what does it do? It puts a gun to your head and says, "Hand over some of the money that YOU have earned so that we can help out Bob who just got a large medical bill. And doesn't have an much money as you." I believe this is fundamentally wrong and that it infringes on too many rights of the people.

Which rights? ... I think there is no right in the constitution that says "You can watch happily how those poorer than you die off from a long-extinct sicknesses".
Seriously, how ignorant do you have to be to believe that charities can do the whole job?! If everyone would pay their share to the charities, then possibly it would work, but this would be nothing different than national Healthcare.
There are bad people in this world. And there are LOTS of ego-centrics in this world that HAVE the money to help those in need, but don't care at all.
Healthcare is a good thing, just because it doesn't rely on people's morale. Have you ever did charity work? I think not. Maybe you were lucky to be born with 2 legs and 2 arms. Just one more coincidence in your parents forelife and you'd have been born with AIDS ... and maybe wouldn't have to money to pay for treatment. Yeah, of course, those that are sick without money should just die off ... its part of natural selection. *irony off*

I'm also all for charities, and even more so for childrens charities, but I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for someone elses medical bills via taxes. If it was a reasonable amount and perhaps they lowered the amount of another tax to compensate, I'd be all for it. However, we already pay tons of taxes, we don't need another one, thats just going to make the economy go to hell even more than it is now.

It's not the taxes that destroyed the economy, but the failure of those people on the top, stock jobbers, insane army finances, etc.
Generally, those that destroyed the economy were those with money. Ironic, if you ask me. Maybe having to pay Healthcare taxes will improve their karma.

That, and if I knew that it was being used to help people that are trying to get things better in their life and just currently don't have the money, I'd be more for it. But I don't want to have to pay for people getting shot from bad drug deals, people going through rehab and medical treatment for drug addiction, and just thugs and lowlifes that are just abusing the free medical treatment system. It's like that with welfare already, thats a great example of why I don't like the idea.

Sure, there are people that need and should get the help, but there are so many that are going to abuse it, and the people that deserve to have help already get help from charities in the current system...

First: Nobody said that every medical treatment should be covered by Healthcare.
Second: Those that would "abuse" the system are always in minority. There are also people that abuse other social systems. Heck, there are ALWAYS bad people out there - do you want to deny help to those that deserve it just because of some black sheep?

Vest, I get that you seem to think healthcare is working great in your country, and if it is then that is great for you, but the U.S. is a much larger country than any country in Europe, and the fact that we would have to cover an exponentially greater population with full healthcare just isn't feasible in my opinion.

Errr, what? How can population ever be a problem for that? More people also means more tax income and thus more "output" for healthcare. In the end, it always evens out. And btw; if you sum all industrial nations together that have healthcare, you will get a population even larger than america.

 

[FireCat]

Errr, what? How can population ever be a problem for that? More people also means more tax income and thus more "output" for healthcare.

But you forgot something, Some people don't have a job.. So that means they cannot pay any tax. What you say about that?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

But you forgot something, Some people don't have a job.. So that means they cannot pay any tax. What you say about that?

I'd say that some people have more income than others and thus pay a higher tax and compensate for that. Isn't that the logic behind taxes in general?

 

[FireCat]

I'd say that some people have more income than others and thus pay a higher tax and compensate for that. Isn't that the logic behind taxes in general?

Well, it depends what you mean by "people have more income" Politicians? hehe

Well, We pay a lot of tax by the way, and thats enough.. and you know Politicians stealing our money to them self and Invest it on some stupid crap we don't need! So why not Politicians pay Moar tax? They steal our money and they earn alot of money. Isn't this a great idea, or what?

 

[Zakyath]

Well, it depends what you mean by "people have more income" Politicians? hehe

Well, We pay a lot of tax by the way, and thats enough.. and you know Politicians stealing our money to them self and Invest it on some stupid crap we don't need! So why not Politicians pay Moar tax? They steal our money and they earn alot of money. Isn't this a great idea, or what?

Nah, screw the politicians. Screw the state! Why not go anarchy all the way?

 

[Vestras]

Well, it depends what you mean by "people have more income" Politicians? hehe

Well, We pay a lot of tax by the way, and thats enough.. and you know Politicians stealing our money to them self and Invest it on some stupid crap we don't need! So why not Politicians pay Moar tax? They steal our money and they earn alot of money. Isn't this a great idea, or what?

Americans don't pay a lot of taxes, they pay nearly no taxes. In Denmark, taxes range from 45% (lower class) to 75% (upper class) of your income, AFAIK.

 

[BlowingKush]

I hate all these countries like Canada and Sweden and Denmark And Germany and France...... who have an awesome Healthcare system.

But they fail to admit one thing....

They have NO army.

Or if they do, it is so weak and pathetic that it would not stand a chance in any military confrontation.

These countries instead rely on USA's mean green fighting machine when shit hits the fan.

The USA would have great healthcare too if we didn't have to babysit other weak nations and maintain the status quo.

 

[FireCat]

taxes range from 45% (lower class) to 75% (upper class) of your income, AFAIK.

Wow, thats a lot
"Greedy politicians" hehe

Nah, screw the politicians. Screw the state! Why not go anarchy all the way?

Haha, It would be a very bad idea. But, It sounds so good

 

[Zakyath]

They have NO army.

Or if they do, it is so weak and pathetic that it would not stand a chance in any military confrontation.

These countries instead rely on USA's mean green fighting machine when shit hits the fan.

The USA would have great healthcare too if we didn't have to babysit other weak nations and maintain the status quo.

Are you serious? Why would we want an army? Sweden, e.g., hasn't been to war in 200 years.

 

[sqrage]

Americans don't pay a lot of taxes, they pay nearly no taxes. In Denmark, taxes range from 45% (lower class) to 75% (upper class) of your income, AFAIK.

I highly doubt that. Taxes that high would NEVER be voted in. You'd keep less than half of the money you earn....

And this site seems to agree unless I'm reading something wrong or things have drastically changed in a year or two. (Highly unlikely)

http://www.skm.dk/foreign/english/taxindenmark2008/section2howisincometaxed/

 

[uberfoop]

I hate all these countries like Canada and Sweden and Denmark And Germany and France...... who have an awesome Healthcare system.

But they fail to admit one thing....

They have NO army.

Or if they do, it is so weak and pathetic that it would not stand a chance in any military confrontation.

These countries instead rely on USA's mean green fighting machine when shit hits the fan.

Last I checked, France puts more money into their armed forces than the Russian Federation does. You seem to be citing their lack of substantial troop commitment in our wars as evidence that they are incapable of fighting a war of their own. Actually, the only two nations that spend more than France does on their militaries are the United States and China.

Perhaps the reason that France and Germany are not heavily commited to any conflict at the present time has more to do with them not being warmongering idiots than them being incapable of fighting.

It it were viewed as a unified force, the only power that the EU probably couldn't completely smash (in conventional battle) is the United States.

I really have a hard time figuring out why people assume that the heavily socialized nations of Europe don't have extroardinarily powerful militaries.

I highly doubt that. Taxes that high would NEVER be voted in. You'd keep less than half of the money you earn....

While Vestras did cite numbers that are too high (income tax in Denmark can't exceed ~62% once all rules and whatnot are applied), it's perfectly normal for middle class individuals to pay 30-40%. The site you brought up is a little hard to read, but those rectangles of tax blobs DO add up to substantial amounts. And yes, many people do lose more than half they earn. It's actually considered acceptable by many people under the condition that they get a lot of things 'free' and easily back from the government (cheap or free university education, free health care, etc...). Sales taxes in EU countries are usually quite high as well.

As far as I can tell, it's a pretty neat system. It means that you can get resources when you actually need them. Having seen many fellow middle class Americans waste money at the most innoportune moments, it seems like, if anything, it would be a good way to save people from themselves.

 

[BlowingKush]

Not only is the French Military weak, its commanders have no experience.

The USA is a nation of war. Not only is our military the best in the world, but our commanders have battle experience and our army battle hardened. That goes a hell of a long way.

 

[Ozzdog]

Canada wins.

/thread

 

[hi_im_bob]

I hate all these countries like Canada and Sweden and Denmark And Germany and France...... who have an awesome Healthcare system.

Uhh no most of those coutnries, like the UK, have absolutly shitty healthcare systems...people from all over the world travel to the US. Why? because we have the best healthcare in the world. Its expensive as fuck but hey go get a freaking job dont make me work my ass off just so the government can take out from the money i made and give it to some dumb fucking idiot who can hold a job.

Yes I voted in MA for Brown as a big fuck you to Obamacare and the dems, Obviously the country doesnt want them doing what they keep pressing to do but whatever thats what you get when you vote for a lazy ass man who has never held a real job in his life.

 

[NoxMortus]

Universal Healthcare is something I value greatly, and I am thankful I live in a country which provides healthcare no matter how fat your wallet is.

Best case scenario for me if I lived in a country without universal healthcare: blind in one eye & brain damaged.

Worst case scenario = I wouldn't be here today.

Thanks to the NHS in the UK I am a perfectly healthy 19 year old.

The United States is the only first-world country in the world which does not provide healthcare for all of it's citizens as a basic right.

Also, Obama's plan does not outline universal healthcare as it is currently employed in Europe, but simply to provide an affordable government option for people who are on such low incomes that they cannot afford private healthcare. You will not lose your precious private hospitals, it will just provide healthcare for millions of Americans who currently are not covered. I don't understand how providing healthcare for millions of people can be seen as a bad thing.

The USA is a nation of war. Not only is our military the best in the world, but our commanders have battle experience and our army battle hardened. That goes a hell of a long way.

Not sure you can really draw a link between healthcare and military might, but the UK has both, with more experience to boot.

the U.S. is a much larger country than any country in Europe, and the fact that we would have to cover an exponentially greater population with full healthcare just isn't feasible in my opinion.

The European Union is much larger than the United States and provides healthcare as a basic human right across all countries.

Edit~

Uhh no most of those coutnries, like the UK, have absolutly shitty healthcare systems...

Actually, all those countries are ranked higher than the US for health systems by the World Health Organization.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 

[hi_im_bob]

I am sorry NoxMortus but we are not Europe or the UK, nowhere in OUR constitution does it give any part of our federal government the right to do what the government is proposing. I dont care how your country is run, this is the way OURS works.

Second what is the point of giving something to somebody for free? The United States was made and based on the prinicples of capitalism, you work hard, you earn what you worked for. So how exactly would giving someone free healthcare on top of the free food and housing our government already gives them push anyone to keep working?

 

[NoxMortus]

I am sorry NoxMortus but we are not Europe or the UK, nowhere in OUR constitution does it give any part of our federal government the right to do what the government is proposing. I dont care how your country is run, this is the way OURS works.

Yes, but the constitution also gives you the ability to change your legislation in case of unforeseen circumstances that require it.

Second what is the point of giving something to somebody for free? The United States was made and based on the prinicples of capitalism, you work hard, you earn what you worked for. So how exactly would giving someone free healthcare on top of the free food and housing our government already gives them push anyone to keep working?

Judging by this, I'm assuming you think the government should not give food and shelter to those who need it?

In an ultra-capitalist system, would you have disabled and mentally challenged people simply die off because they couldn't work for themselves?

The US spends the most out of any country in the world on their healthcare, and yet they are ranked very low. This is partly because your medical schools are paid bonuses for producing less doctors than they are able, making health care costs astronomical (Specialist doctors to the highest bidder!).

Capitalism is great and all, but there's some things that I believe are a basic human right.

Countries with universal healthcare spend much less per person and yet get much more efficient health care systems.

 

[ElderKingpin]

"In an ultra-capitalist system, would you have disabled and mentally challenged people simply die off because they couldn't work for themselves?"

You think there arnt people out there that care for those types of people privately and without government help?