Patch 1.4.0 announced in PTR

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
>Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. :

I had missed that one. It really sucked when they neuraled your collosi (which take 70 secs a piece and cost a crap tone) who are the only dps units in the protoss gateway-robo ball adn you loose your support army, then loose the collosi. This change is made because the MASSIVE units, cost TOO MUCH to be able to be neural parasited.


Units which are still pretty strong and you can neural parasite tanks, immortals, sentries and the likes.

I think that the game will be more balanced then ever(atleast in pvp and pvz and zvt. pvt should be more balanced on theory but we will see. Since marines kill banelings, it is clear that we can't rely on speculations.


To all you zergs: 1 base all ins of toss should be practically unexistant, except the DT chargelot one ; )
To all you tosses: 4 gate should suck in pvp now.
To all you terrans: MMM foreva baby!
 

UndeadDragon

Super Moderator
Staff member
>Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. :

I had missed that one.
I think it was a more recently added one.

I do agree with that change for the reasons you stated though. They can still take over siege tanks, which are good, but they are (overall) not too expensive.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
Tanks are quite massable... they are like more gas heavy marauders (since their dps is that of a stimmed marauder ^_^)

I do think that this change was made for pvz mostly, since the only massive units of T that can't be neauraled are BC, which you don't see anywhere and Thors, which you see if the zerg is using ling-muta-bling, only.
 

Tom_Kazansky

--- wraith it ! ---
>Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. :

I had missed that one.
it's just recently added, sorry that I didn't write that out

Units which are still pretty strong and you can neural parasite tanks, immortals, sentries and the likes.
Immortals, Sentries,... right! but about the Tanks, I don't know...

To all you terrans: MMM foreva baby!
yea! MM is indeed strong.
when I'm P, I found it hard to go against MM :(
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
that is because you need tier 3 units to kill tier 1 units xD

Also I am 100% sure you can np tanks. The change was made for the mothership and collosus.
 

Sevion

The DIY Ninja
NPing tanks is very difficult...

Unless, ofc, your opponent is as bad as the AI in the NP challenge...

Try NPing 8 Sieged Tanks who're surrounded by 50MM

Miss one tank or lose one Infestor and you're screwed.

Making a Mothership and Collosi against Infestors is a risk the Protoss takes when making them.

Collossi can easily maneuvered to higher ground and away from Infestors.
 

Nigerianrulz

suga suga how'd you get so fly?
sooo whats the point of getting infestors besides in ZvZ? In ZvT your almost always going to go muta ling bling and if they add a thor into the mix and you cant neutral parasite it what are you going to do? fly your muta over it and let it all die? And what about zealot archon balls? Not to mention that fungal has also been nerfed. I never understood why people never get templar or ghost to counter infestors, honestly when i see templars and ghost those feedback and emp destroys my infestor army. So now zerg have a fix build against terran and toss cause honestly i dont see lower league players like myself from diverting from corruptors for toss and mutas for terran etc...

/rant
 

Siretu

Starcraft 2 Editor Moderator
Staff member
I am angry that they nerfed Fungal growth but I can kind of understand it but the nerf to Neural parasite is just plain stupid.

First of all, I can Neural parasite your mothership, sure. It's not like you're doing a mothership anyway if you're not way ahead(Although if these changes goes through, mothership will, along with the acceleration buff, actually be pretty useful, which is a good thing)

Neural parasiting requires that I'm in range of the colossi attack. If we just disregard the rest of the protoss deathball, those colossi(let's assume 6-7) will be in range to attack me.

Now, if you have 3 colossi attack an infestor, they just do one sweeping attack each to kill the infestor. If I run my infestors forward(again, disregarding the fact that there's 100 food of gateway units between me and the colossi) even 3 of those colossi can just kill 3-4 infestors with one attack before my NP does anything. Sure, I might get off 2-3 Neural parasites but my infestors will be dead before the mind controlled colossi has done any damage(since attack takes time to reload)

Okay, so neural parasiting colossi against a good player with more than 2 colossi is a bad idea.

What more protoss units can I neural parasite? Well, bloodcount said sentries and immortals.

Who would seriously mind control a sentry? For 3/4th of the cost to use NP, you can cast fungal growth that does a lot more damage. Although, I can now cast a guardian shield that will last for about 2 seconds before my infestor die. It wont be useful. I can also cast force fields! Although those can be broken by all at least one unit in the protoss late game army(archon or colossi is in late game PvZ in 95% of the cases imo)

However, can you imagine the micro to neural parasite a SMALL sentry in the middle of a protoss deathball and then select it and cast GOOD force fields.

There are several other problems with this:
* What if that sentry has no energy?
* I must do this single task while doing a surround with my army and microing the rest of my infestors
* Protoss doesn't usually have that many sentries late game(I know bloodcount told me that he rarely uses them at all because he feels stalkers are better, correct me if I'm wrong)

Okay, so Immortals is the only unit left that is reasonable to NP since Archons were recently made massive, they're no longer in the picture.

Immortals are still a choice, but I dislike it for several reasons. They are smaller and harder to click than a colossi(but still way easier than a sentry, I have to admit)

Still, the only thing I need immortals for is dps. An immortal has between 13.8 and 20.7 dps. If I instead cast a fungal growth(which only costs 75% of the mana) I will deal 7.5 dps to each unit(considering the new changes to fungal growth) so if I hit more 2 targets with my fungal growth, I will deal at least 22.5 dps which is more than a single immortal.

Hitting 3+ targets with fungal growth is very easy even if the opponent spreads his units out. If I use FG, I also don't have to stay still for the entire duration.

Still, an immortal deals more damage compared to a fungal growth on 3 units if my infestor survives the entire duration but this is unlikely. However, if this is the case, and I also were very lucky with attack timings, my NP'd immortal would attack 8 times dealing 160 damage total.

Since a fungal growth deals 30 damage(let's disregard the bonus to armored) to one target, we would need to hit 160/30 targets to deal the same amount of damage. Doing the math, this means we'll deal more damage if we hit more than 5 targets. Not an unlikely situation since the protoss deathball is usually very clumped up.

Therefore, neural parasiting an immortal is not worth it. FG is deals more damage in nearly all cases even if the infestor doesn't die while using NP and FG costs less mana.

I could neural parasite high templar but they are also VERY small and hard to see in a big bunch of protoss gateway units(especially if you have a bunch of void rays there as well). Doing storms with them would require insane amount of micro(although it would be cool to see in a pro game) and the infestors would probably just die before they could cast the storm.

Void rays has less dps than an immortal, even when charged up. Therefore, FG is still more effective.

Let's get to terrans:

I can't neural parasite thors any more, nor battlecruisers. What's left? Siege tanks. Well, the same argument applies here as with the colossi, but now it's even worse. Have you ever seen a decent player's tank placement? It's not just 10 tanks within 2 meters of eachother. When they're leapfrogging, there's tanks going back almost half the map. If I come up and NP a tank, I can still get shot by other tanks and I cant just take all the tanks because the more tanks I take, the more tanks can shoot me... and when they shoot me, my infestors die which means I lose control of the tanks which means more tanks are shooting on my infestors.

To make a long bloody story short: My infestors die after dealing close to no damage.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
I just want to point out, that personally I dislike balance discussions because in my humble oppinion unless you are high masters and above you don't really understand the game well enough in order to make any valid statements about the pro level... I am letting this thread continue out of good will, discuss, claim, disagree, prove that you are right, it is fine, just make sure that the only ones you are hating on is blizzard.

>NPing tanks is very difficult...
Unless, ofc, your opponent is as bad as the AI in the NP challenge...

It somehow seems to work against most players, you see if you have seen it on the stream of someone (and you have if you have watched any z streams at all) the person that it is working against is someone with simular skill than the zerg. Watch 30 minutes of destiny's channel and see how "hard" it is to use neural parasite. Well, when you have the micro and apm to support it then... if you don't... you have to practise it.

>Making a Mothership and Collosi against Infestors is a risk the Protoss takes when making them.
So the protoss has to take a risk to begin with when he wants to use his T3 units, whiere as the zerg can use broodlords all day long ? Sure, why not, just give back the old research time of the warp tech, return the pylon range to 7.5 and also give the zealots their old build time ;)

>Neural parasiting requires that I'm in range of the colossi attack. If we just disregard the rest of the protoss deathball, those colossi(let's assume 6-7) will be in range to attack me.

Technically you can shift neural all the collosi.

>What more protoss units can I neural parasite? Well, bloodcount said sentries and immortals.

Any unit except the uber expensive tier 3 units.

Regarding the sentry- destiny has killed entire armies thanks to the sentry neural parasite. Don't choose a sentry without energy (you can see the bars, hello) Also I am a special little protoss, most of the pro's have 4-12 sentries (depends on the style) Hell, even I have 4 sentries (just 4)

>Since a fungal growth deals 30 damage(let's disregard the bonus to armored) to one target, we would need to hit 160/30 targets to deal the same amount of damage. Doing the math, this means we'll deal more damage if we hit more than 5 targets. Not an unlikely situation since the protoss deathball is usually very clumped up.

I know that at the moment fungal feels unviable, but think about the hunter seeker missle, carrier, yamato cannon and some more useless abilities.

>I could neural parasite high templar but they are also VERY small and hard to see in a big bunch of protoss gateway units(
Cry me a river, try to feedback burrowed infestors and ghosts and then tell me that the micro is hard. (I have a soft spot for this one, you know I love you <3 )


Siretu there is 1 thing you have missed and one thing which ALL of you have missed.

you have missed that while you have fungled something, it doesn't hit your army, therefore the dmg that the immortal does is also damage you have saved not have been done on your army.


The thing that everyone is missing is that the infestor is fundamentally broken(pre patch). It has area of effect, it can paralize units, it deals great with air units and tier 3 units, it is VERY mobile, harder to kill than any other caster (requires detection) it can harass the mineral line, it has control over the battle field, oh did I mention that it also deals great with detection ?

This is a part of the fundamentals of starcraft 2 units- it is a counter system, meaning that each unit is good against 1 thing, weak against 1 thing and with support might deal well against other things. That is why SCII is soo micro intensive... And as you can see the infestor is the universal unit. The way the infestor is now, it is not a SCII unit, it is a warcraft III hero.
 

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
I just want to point out, that personally I dislike balance discussions because in my humble oppinion unless you are high masters and above you don't really understand the game well enough in order to make any valid statements about the pro level... I am letting this thread continue out of good will, discuss, claim, disagree, prove that you are right, it is fine, just make sure that the only ones you are hating on is blizzard.
I really have to disagree with you in this regard.
I can discuss the balancing even without playing the game. The people who made these balance changes are no grand master players either and there are many commentators and casters around who also are no masters league.
All you need to talk about the balancing is knowledge of the game and experience, doesnt need to be practical experience, if you watch several days of pro-level gaming you do know alot about the game and its balancing as well.


To get back to topic:
Neural parasite isnt as powerful as you might think.
It lasts only 15 seconds, the infestor has to channel the spell and is very vulnderable to any attacks in this period of time.
the parasited unit is not attacked by its own allies, and the range of the parasite is very limited as well.
The cost for neural parasite is pretty high, after using this ability the infestor is almost useless, exept maybe for 1 or 2 infested terrans if the energy was full before.
to sum it up:
i, as a zerg, trade my infestor (100 m / 150 g) to use one of your units for 15 seconds or until my infestor is dead which is very likely if the protoss got at least a bit of micro skills.
not to mention i need 2 other upgrades before.

If i could not cast neural parasite on massive units this trade would never ever pay off.
In my opinion there is only 1 possibility, keep the neural parasite as it is or remove it completely from the game and replace it by an other ability.


On a sidenote: i want queens to be massive units. yaaay!
 

Vestras

Retired
I really have to disagree with you in this regard.
I can discuss the balancing even without playing the game. The people who made these balance changes are no grand master players either and there are many commentators and casters around who also are no masters league.
All you need to talk about the balancing is knowledge of the game and experience, doesnt need to be practical experience, if you watch several days of pro-level gaming you do know alot about the game and its balancing as well.
Actually, dayvie, the lead balance dude is very very high on the ladder. Like, plays with the pros and stuff.

Also, Neural Parasite is too strong. You obviously haven't seen it in high level matches.
 

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
Actually, dayvie, the lead balance dude is very very high on the ladder. Like, plays with the pros and stuff.

Also, Neural Parasite is too strong. You obviously haven't seen it in high level matches.
I did.

I saw how Minigun killed 5 infestors with blinkstalkers who parasited his units.
I saw how grubby feedbacked like 8 infestors before they could parasite his archons and mothership.
I saw dozens over dozens of examples how protoss players dealt perfectly fine with infestors without losing many units to the np.
I saw countless games were pro terran players cloaked their ghosts and emp'ed the shit out of infestors / high templars.

neural parasite definitely is strong but only in certain occasions. You need good positioning for np as well as you need good positioning for many other units, like siege tanks for example, or nukes maybe, or the mothership.

And my major argument is not whether the np is too imbalanced but that if you nerf the np you can as well remove it because it wouldnt be used anymore anyways.
 

Siretu

Starcraft 2 Editor Moderator
Staff member
> It somehow seems to work against most players, you see if you have seen it on the stream of someone (and you have if you have watched any z streams at all) the person that it is working against is someone with simular skill than the zerg. Watch 30 minutes of destiny's channel and see how "hard" it is to use neural parasite. Well, when you have the micro and apm to support it then... if you don't... you have to practise it.

I'm actually a big fan of destiny and I watch his stream whenever I have the chance. I can't remember ever seeing him neural parasite a tank. EVER. I guess I've watched at LEAST 15-20h of him playing. He very rarely even gets neural parasite, which is an issue in itself. It is rarely worth it. After the new patch it certainly wont be.

This might be for the reasons I talked about in my other post. If you don't get a big amount of the tanks, you will fail and you cant get a big amount of tanks because they're stretched out over a big part of the map.

For the record, destiny use infested terran to deal with siege tanks while he runs his lings in.

> So the protoss has to take a risk to begin with when he wants to use his T3 units, whiere as the zerg can use broodlords all day long ? Sure, why not, just give back the old research time of the warp tech, return the pylon range to 7.5 and also give the zealots their old build time ;)

I disagree with the one you quoted. Making colossi isn't really a risk in that sense. I mean, there's always a risk in teching of course since your opponent might counter you. Zerg using broodlords all day long seems a bit wrong. If I could just make broodlords and auto-win since there was no risk involved, I would not be platinum league.


> Technically you can shift neural all the collosi.

I assumed that you have the required apm to NP them as soon as possible. My point still stands, if a protoss player is watching the battle, he should be able to just take his colossi and attack the infestors, killing 3-4 of them in one-shot.


> Any unit except the uber expensive tier 3 units.

So, the ones I mentioned in my post? Each with the disadvantages I listed.

> Regarding the sentry- destiny has killed entire armies thanks to the sentry neural parasite. Don't choose a sentry without energy (you can see the bars, hello) Also I am a special little protoss, most of the pro's have 4-12 sentries (depends on the style) Hell, even I have 4 sentries (just 4)

Again, I've watched a LOT of destiny's stream(a lot of pro streams in general) and I've never seen ANYONE EVER neural parasite a sentry. Also, how did he use the sentries to kill entire armies? Force field? It feels like you're just pulling out things out of thin air. When you refer to a player doing things like this(and the quote from above with siege tanks) please feel free to post a source. Destiny saves all the recordings iirc.

Even with 12 sentries, it's hard to notice in a big deathball.

> I know that at the moment fungal feels unviable, but think about the hunter seeker missle, carrier, yamato cannon and some more useless abilities

I don't think fungal feels unviable. Even after the patch, they're still good. I am not complaining about the fungal nerf, I am complaining about the NP nerf. Seeker missile will be quite viable after the patch. Carriers are worthless and cheesy, I agree. Yamato cannon is bad, but it's not like terran needs it to win(like zerg needs fungal growth to win)

> Cry me a river, try to feedback burrowed infestors and ghosts and then tell me that the micro is hard. (I have a soft spot for this one, you know I love you <3 )

Why would the infestors be burrowed in a battle? I cant cast fungal growth of neural parasite while burrowed and if I use neural parasite, I cant burrow while doing it so if my infestors are burrowed, they're no threat to you basically(if you're not going to start arguing about infested terran as well). Also, you can use minimap feedback, it's a lot easier(or so I've heard). You cant do this with NP since it could target a zealot or anything like that.


> Siretu there is 1 thing you have missed and one thing which ALL of you have missed.

> you have missed that while you have fungled something, it doesn't hit your army, therefore the dmg that the immortal does is also damage you have saved not have been done on your army.

I agree with this, I forgot that. So, if I hit 10 targets(Still not unlikely), I'll deal more damage for less energy(not counting bonus damage to armored) Therefore, my point still stands.


> The thing that everyone is missing is that the infestor is fundamentally broken(pre patch). It has area of effect, it can paralize units, it deals great with air units and tier 3 units, it is VERY mobile, harder to kill than any other caster (requires detection) it can harass the mineral line, it has control over the battle field, oh did I mention that it also deals great with detection ?

I agree that infestors should be changed. They are currently the entire base of the zerg race. You can't play effectively without them. This limits the strategy around this unit. This is bad, but if you just nerf the infestor to smithereens, zerg will become VERY underpowered. I don't think the concept behind fungal growth is broken.

You say fungal growth is broken because it has an area of effect, can paralyze units and deals great with air units. This was true about the fungal growth before it was buffed, but you had no issues with it then(as a protoss). Your problem with it is not the paralyze duration(which was lowered in the patch when it was buffed) your problem is just that it's a very good AoE damage spell.

Tell me in what way the Infestor is VERY mobile. It has the same speed as all the other spellcasters(except high templar). In that case, all spell casters but the high templar are VERY mobile(especially ravens since they can fly). How is it harder to kill that any other caster? Ghosts also have stealth and ravens can fly(not to mention that ravens and ghosts have more hp). Ghosts also deal great with detection. A lot of units can harass a mineral line, but if you put down a couple of cannon in front of the expansion or in the mineral line, the infestors wont get in there.

> Well, the only reason why we are having this discussion in the first place is that clearly you don't understand the fundamentals of starcraft 2 units- it is a counter system, meaning that each unit is good against 1 thing, weak against 1 thing and with support might deal well against other things. That is why SCII is soo micro intensive... And as you can see the infestor is the universal unit. The way the infestor is now, it is not a SCII unit, it is a warcraft III hero.

I agree with some of the things you said. However, as I said, if the infestor didn't exist, zerg would be very underpowered. In the current situation, we need the infestor as a universal unit because most of our other units are not that good in comparison.

I also disagree about the unit fundamentals. I think I know them well. At least as well as you do. You're right about the counter system. However, neural parasite was MADE to counter massive units. It even says so in the loading screen tips.

@ Vestras: I've watched a lot of high level matches. The only recent game I recal where neural parasite was used to turn the tide of the battle was Idra vs MC in MLG(I think) Where MC left his immortals close to IdrA with all the stalkers way behind. Because of that stupid mistake, IdrA could NP the immortals and push in and kill the stalkers. If not for that mistake, it wouldn't have worked.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
>I'm actually a big fan of destiny and I watch his stream whenever I have the chance. I can't remember ever seeing him neural parasite a tank. EVER. I guess I've watched at LEAST 15-20h of him playing. He very rarely even gets neural parasite, which is an issue in itself. It is rarely worth it. After the new patch it certainly wont be.

This might be for the reasons I talked about in my other post. If you don't get a big amount of the tanks, you will fail and you cant get a big amount of tanks because they're stretched out over a big part of the map.

For the record, destiny use infested terran to deal with siege tanks while he runs his lings in.


It is possible that it cloud have been a one time thing, still watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKQBNdH-YKY

>I disagree with the one you quoted. Making colossi isn't really a risk in that sense. I mean, there's always a risk in teching of course since your opponent might counter you. Zerg using broodlords all day long seems a bit wrong. If I could just make broodlords and auto-win since there was no risk involved, I would not be platinum league.

Thing is, that when your apm is high enough you can neural all the collosi and then even for the 2-3 seconds it takes the protoss to react shit gets serious for him.

>I don't think fungal feels unviable. Even after the patch, they're still good. I am not complaining about the fungal nerf, I am complaining about the NP nerf. Seeker missile will be quite viable after the patch. Carriers are worthless and cheesy, I agree. Yamato cannon is bad, but it's not like terran needs it to win(like zerg needs fungal growth to win)

I ment neural. Ups.

>Why would the infestors be burrowed in a battle? I cant cast fungal growth of neural parasite while burrowed and if I use neural parasite, I cant burrow while doing it so if my infestors are burrowed, they're no threat to you basically(if you're not going to start arguing about infested terran as well). Also, you can use minimap feedback, it's a lot easier(or so I've heard). You cant do this with NP since it could target a zealot or anything like that.

The idea is to use it's harder to kill factor. Again, the higher apm players unburrow 2-3 only, cast the spells, burrow. I haven't watching average master league players, nor have I had the chance to fight against them yet to see for my self (damn 6 pool, roach lovers :D) and I can't say if this is done in any level other than the professional.

>I agree that infestors should be changed. They are currently the entire base of the zerg race. You can't play effectively without them. This limits the strategy around this unit. This is bad, but if you just nerf the infestor to smithereens, zerg will become VERY underpowered. I don't think the concept behind fungal growth is broken.

You say fungal growth is broken because it has an area of effect, can paralyze units and deals great with air units. This was true about the fungal growth before it was buffed, but you had no issues with it then(as a protoss). Your problem with it is not the paralyze duration(which was lowered in the patch when it was buffed) your problem is just that it's a very good AoE damage spell.

Tell me in what way the Infestor is VERY mobile. It has the same speed as all the other spellcasters(except high templar). In that case, all spell casters but the high templar are VERY mobile(especially ravens since they can fly). How is it harder to kill that any other caster? Ghosts also have stealth and ravens can fly(not to mention that ravens and ghosts have more hp). Ghosts also deal great with detection. A lot of units can harass a mineral line, but if you put down a couple of cannon in front of the expansion or in the mineral line, the infestors wont get in there.

I am not saying that fungal is broken. I think that blizzard are aiming at using stable armies (like roach hydra) and the spellcaster support... look what happened with the HT- people started using it a lot, bam, no amulet, now it is the infestor. Hell, even the sentries aren't used in the masses they used to be. Before you cloud see 8-12 sentries in the early game... now it is 6-8.

>I agree with some of the things you said. However, as I said, if the infestor didn't exist, zerg would be very underpowered. In the current situation, we need the infestor as a universal unit because most of our other units are not that good in comparison.

I disagree that the other zerg units are generally underpowered. I agree that the hydra needs a buff. If I were blizzard, the starting range would be 6 and the upgrade would make it 7 or 8.
 

Sevion

The DIY Ninja
>It is possible that it cloud have been a one time thing, still watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKQBNdH-YKY

I'm not sure what the point of seeing this video was.

I've seen it before and re-watching it hasn't reinforced your points at all.

He Neural Parasited the Motherships and Colossi and the Protoss just wasn't thinking to either 1) Snipe the infestors (which he could have) or 2) just kill the Mothership.

First Toss lost his Colossi to the Infestors and didn't think "If I kill those Infestors....."

The Second Toss lost his Mothership and instead of killing the Mothership/backing up, he decides to "wtf" and lose.

The Second Toss could have simply backed up and let him waste energy on NP.
 

Siretu

Starcraft 2 Editor Moderator
Staff member
Not to mention he was letting his mothership drag behind which made neural parasiting it very easy. The rest of his army was way north of the mothership.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
The video was to show that sentries are useful to be neuraled in some situations.

EDIT: Posting in this thread is pointless unless you take into account my entire comment and(or) bring up valid reasons why the nerf should or should not stay. Keep that in mind next time anyone adds a comment. This is not battle.net, I will not tolerate any kind of balance QQ-ing, should it appear. This forum is to have discussions which benefit both sides. If you think that the infestor is UP now, there are several(hundred) QQ posts in b.net already.

Second edit: Thank you vestras, for bringing that up.
Awesome post by Vestras said:
Actually, dayvie, the lead balance dude is very very high on the ladder. Like, plays with the pros and stuff.

Also, Neural Parasite is too strong. You obviously haven't seen it in high level matches.
 

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
well you didnt even answer to my comment.
To be honest i cant see many "arguments" in your posts either, to sum it up:

1).
>NPing tanks is very difficult...
Unless, ofc, your opponent is as bad as the AI in the NP challenge...
you can neural tanks if your enemy is stupid.
-> now we are talking pro level gaming huh?

2).
So the protoss has to take a risk to begin with when he wants to use his T3 units, whiere as the zerg can use broodlords all day long ?
teching is dangerous for protoss.
-> it is for any race.

3).
>Neural parasiting requires that I'm in range of the colossi attack. If we just disregard the rest of the protoss deathball, those colossi(let's assume 6-7) will be in range to attack me.
Technically you can shift neural all the collosi.
I dont even understand what the first and the second sentence have in common.
-> Protoss can still kill them. Oo

4).
>What more protoss units can I neural parasite? Well, bloodcount said sentries and immortals.
Any unit except the uber expensive tier 3 units.
you can still neural tier 1 and 2 units.
-> That means no unit which is worth it.

5).
>Since a fungal growth deals 30 damage(let's disregard the bonus to armored) to one target, we would need to hit 160/30 targets to deal the same amount of damage. Doing the math, this means we'll deal more damage if we hit more than 5 targets. Not an unlikely situation since the protoss deathball is usually very clumped up.

I know that at the moment [neural parasite] feels unviable, but think about the hunter seeker missle, carrier, yamato cannon and some more useless abilities.
Other abilities are crap too.
-> Thats no argument to nerf neural just because other abilities are useless.

6).
The thing that everyone is missing is that the infestor is fundamentally broken(pre patch). It has area of effect, it can paralize units, it deals great with air units and tier 3 units, it is VERY mobile, harder to kill than any other caster (requires detection) it can harass the mineral line, it has control over the battle field, oh did I mention that it also deals great with detection ?
-> Please tell me how infestors deal great with detection?
-> Ghosts can cloak as well.
-> Templars feedback can hit 6 out of 12 terran units, psi-storm deals more then double damage then fungal, they can warp into archons which are massive, have splash and deal extra damage to all zerg units. they can also one-shot every infestor who is able to neural.
-> infestors have less health then ravens or ghosts and only 10 hitpoints more then high templars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

To repeat myself. I am no big fan of neural myself, i dont like to play protoss or terran and see my costly units get parasited.
But, if neural is nerfed this way, they are better off removing the ability entirely because it will not be used anymore ever again. (at least not effectively.)
Then give the infestor an other ability instead which they feel fits.

In my opinion fungal growth should be nerfed slightly as well, it shouldnt make units immoveable but decrease their movement speed heavily, but not completely, instead. But thats another story.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
The thing that everyone is missing is that the infestor is fundamentally broken(pre patch). It has area of effect, it can paralize units, it deals great with air units and tier 3 units, it is VERY mobile, harder to kill than any other caster (requires detection) it can harass the mineral line, it has control over the battle field, oh did I mention that it also deals great with detection ?
is what you should take into account, since it is my thoughts, without me having to answer to some else's comment.

>> Please tell me how infestors deal great with detection?

Fungal growth undetects units...

>-> Ghosts can cloak as well. yes but they can't be perma cloacked.

>-> Templars feedback can hit 6 out of 12 terran units, psi-storm deals more then double damage then fungal, they can warp into archons which are massive, have splash and deal extra damage to all zerg units. they can also one-shot every infestor who is able to neural.

They can, doesn't mean they will. Psy storm can, doesn't mean it will. Also, do research on the archon "spash" damage and then we can talk again :D

>I dont even understand what the first and the second sentence have in common.
-> Protoss can still kill them. Oo

You can neural ALL of the collosi.

>you can neural tanks if your enemy is stupid.
-> now we are talking pro level gaming huh?

I didn't say that.

>teching is dangerous for protoss.
-> it is for any race.

This was an answer to a "Teching is a risk that protoss has to take" comment. Get it into context and you will see that I am not claiming that it isn't for other races, I am claiming that the statement is...

>you can still neural tier 1 and 2 units.
-> That means no unit which is worth it.

Well to some degree I agree, however I am not sure that neural is an ability for the SCII universe to begin with, again, because it is a universal ability, not a rock-paper-shotgun game.

>Other abilities are crap too.
-> Thats no argument to nerf neural just because other abilities are useless.

Yes.
 
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