Patch 1.4.0 announced in PTR

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
is what you should take into account, since it is my thoughts, without me having to answer to some else's comment.
So what do you want me to say here? This is a discussion forum and we wanna have a discussion about this topic.

>> Please tell me how infestors deal great with detection?

Fungal growth undetects units...
Got that wrong, i thought you meant infestors can deal with enemies detection.

>-> Ghosts can cloak as well. yes but they can't be perma cloacked.
No they cant but they can still use all their abilities while cloaked while the infestor can only use infested terrans.
Also ghosts can attack normally.

>-> Templars feedback can hit 6 out of 12 terran units, psi-storm deals more then double damage then fungal, they can warp into archons which are massive, have splash and deal extra damage to all zerg units. they can also one-shot every infestor who is able to neural.

They can, doesn't mean they will. Psy storm can, doesn't mean it will. Also, do research on the archon "spash" damage and then we can talk again :D
So what? They can, thats everything that counts, its not like neural parasite has a 100% success rate by itself. It all comes down to your own micro skills and the micro of your opponent.
And splash damage is splash damage. Even if its just 10%, given the total amount of damage an archon deals and the low hitpoints of zerglings its still noteworthy.


>I dont even understand what the first and the second sentence have in common.
-> Protoss can still kill them. Oo

You can neural ALL of the collosi.
But the collosi can shoot first, and their are other units in the protoss army.
Its not like neural instant-kills anything, the protoss just has to focus fire down the infestors and try to keep his collosus behind his other units.
Collusus have a range of 13 if i remember correctly (with upgrade) and neural has only a range of 9. that means you have far more then enough time to kill all the zerg forces before even the first neural can launch if you micro perfectly.

>you can neural tanks if your enemy is stupid.
-> now we are talking pro level gaming huh?

I didn't say that.
My apologies, i got that one wrong, the way you quote people takes getting used to.

>teching is dangerous for protoss.
-> it is for any race.

This was an answer to a "Teching is a risk that protoss has to take" comment. Get it into context and you will see that I am not claiming that it isn't for other races, I am claiming that the statement is...
Yeah, but where is the problem? the fact that its a risk for any race is maybe a flaw in the game itself or it is designed this way for a reason. But it isnt an arguement for or against np.

>you can still neural tier 1 and 2 units.
-> That means no unit which is worth it.

Well to some degree I agree, however I am not sure that neural is an ability for the SCII universe to begin with, again, because it is a universal ability, not a rock-paper-shotgun game.
As mentioned in my other post, i think this way as well, i dont like np. But the infestor needs something to compensate for the loss.

>Other abilities are crap too.
-> Thats no argument to nerf neural just because other abilities are useless.

Yes.
Yes you agree or yes it is an arguement?
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
>So what do you want me to say here? This is a discussion forum and we wanna have a discussion about this topic.

When I comment a comment, if it is strategy thing I try to look from the other person's point of view so I can understand his thought process better. What I quoted are my own, clear thoughts about the infestor nerf.

>So what? They can, thats everything that counts, its not like neural parasite has a 100% success rate by itself. It all comes down to your own micro skills and the micro of your opponent.
And splash damage is splash damage. Even if its just 10%, given the total amount of damage an archon deals and the low hitpoints of zerglings its still noteworthy.


ehm... are we talking about just the neural parasite or about the infestor nerf in general?

>My apologies, i got that one wrong, the way you quote people takes getting used to.

I will work on that, after this comment, because it is already 70%+ written :d

>As mentioned in my other post, i think this way as well, i dont like np. But the infestor needs something to compensate for the loss.

Well I think that the neural is over powered the way it is now. It is just too good. It should be balanced. Maybe this is too harsh, maybe a different skill should be given but at the moment neural parasite is the reason I am using ONLY gateway untis in pvz. (yeah the entire game, really fun to have just gate units when you are facing broodlords and roaches xD)

>Yes you agree or yes it is an arguement?

I agree.
 

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
>So what? They can, thats everything that counts, its not like neural parasite has a 100% success rate by itself. It all comes down to your own micro skills and the micro of your opponent.
And splash damage is splash damage. Even if its just 10%, given the total amount of damage an archon deals and the low hitpoints of zerglings its still noteworthy.


ehm... are we talking about just the neural parasite or about the infestor nerf in general?
I think this is about every ability in starcraft 2.
i could say the same about force fields as some are saying about neural parasites, or about stim packs or whatever.

If we count how often force fields changed the tide of the battle compared to neural parasite, i think chances are it is even.
Its always about positioning and how well you can deal with those abilities.

This is really honest, i am watching starcraft 2 pro games on a regular basis, almost daily. And i see np used very very rarely and even if (last time i saw it it was by idra) it does not change the battle too much.
If the protoss / terran was in a good position and had more units / better composition before he will win the battle in the end even when facing nps.
But i saw alot of force fields breaking the game, especially against zergs.

Its just too complicated to talk about balancing of abilities because their useability evolves around the situation and positioning.

But okay, remove neural, give the infestor something else which is worth it. I would like it.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
Its just too complicated to talk about balancing of abilities because their useability evolves around the situation and positioning.

But okay, remove neural, give the infestor something else which is worth it. I would like it.
This is something I really agree with. Neural should be removed and replaced with another, fitting ability. Maybe a silence spell ? Since the zerg don't have a direct anti caster unit to begin with...
 

Siretu

Starcraft 2 Editor Moderator
Staff member
First of all, I am astonished by the amount of complaints about neural parasite. I've not heard a single complaint about it ANYWHERE in the last 3-4 months and now when it gets nerfed, all the terrans and protoss are like: Well, it's so incredibly overpowered and it's used in a lot of pro games.

If it was such a big problem, you'd think they would've complained about it earlier. Also, I've yet to see a game that utilizes neural parasite a lot(For the record, I saw the TLO vs Destiny game. That's a game that utilized a lot of cute neural parasiting(A ghost, a viking and a banshee) but neither of them were efficient)

Also, I am still not sure why Bloodcount is arguing for the neural parasite nerf. I thought you said in skype that it was a nerf that will make neural parasite completely useless?

The thing that everyone is missing is that the infestor is fundamentally broken(pre patch). It has area of effect, it can paralize units, it deals great with air units and tier 3 units, it is VERY mobile, harder to kill than any other caster (requires detection) it can harass the mineral line, it has control over the battle field, oh did I mention that it also deals great with detection ?
You still haven't explained how you can say that it's very mobile, harder to kill or how it has control over the battle field.

When it comes to colossi, your opinion is that the zerg can just shift-click NP the colossi and the zerg will automatically get all of them and the protoss can't do anything about it. If the protoss just selects all his colossi and right click the infestors as they are moving in, they will die. That is 2 apm, is that to much to ask?

Even with perfect play from the zerg, a decent protoss player can still prevent his colossi from getting NP'd for a longer period of time. But if we assume perfect play from the zerg, the protoss should have perfect feedbacks.

That means every infestor that has been alive for over 19 seconds will die when they get into fungal growth range.

I also agree with Accname, good force fields more often change the tide of the battle than neural parasite. Sure, force fields are harder to pull off(it's harder to do a good force field than to neural parasite a big unit) but it's close to impossible to do anything against force field, but neural parasite is stopped by 2 apm.

Of course the infestor deals great with tier 3 units, that's what it was MADE for. In the counter system you were talking about, infestor fits in as a counter to massive units.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
Also, I am still not sure why Bloodcount is arguing for the neural parasite nerf. I thought you said in skype that it was a nerf that will make neural parasite completely useless?
Yes, but neural is OP the way it is now.

You still haven't explained how you can say that it's very mobile, harder to kill or how it has control over the battle field.
Well it can go under any unit composition, and as long as there isn't detection, (and detection is not an easy thing to get, I know that you will argue with that so in advance I am telling that this is a quote of day9) the infestors can go everywhere they want.

You still haven't explained how you can say that it's very mobile, harder to kill or how it has control over the battle field.

When it comes to colossi, your opinion is that the zerg can just shift-click NP the colossi and the zerg will automatically get all of them and the protoss can't do anything about it. If the protoss just selects all his colossi and right click the infestors as they are moving in, they will die. That is 2 apm, is that to much to ask?

Even with perfect play from the zerg, a decent protoss player can still prevent his colossi from getting NP'd for a longer period of time. But if we assume perfect play from the zerg, the protoss should have perfect feedbacks.

That means every infestor that has been alive for over 19 seconds will die when they get into fungal growth range.

I also agree with Accname, good force fields more often change the tide of the battle than neural parasite. Sure, force fields are harder to pull off(it's harder to do a good force field than to neural parasite a big unit) but it's close to impossible to do anything against force field, but neural parasite is stopped by 2 apm.
Yes, it is that easy to stop it, that is why it is getting nerfed ;)

Of course the infestor deals great with tier 3 units, that's what it was MADE for. In the counter system you were talking about, infestor fits in as a counter to massive units.
Then remove fungal, it tends to deal too well with smaller units.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
A quick update: Infestors can neural massive units again (even a mothership) but the range is reduced to 7.
 

Jedimindtrixxx

┻━┻ ︵ ¯\(ツ)/¯ ︵ ┻━┻
patch is out! although i cant play anyway because of the scheduled maintenance ._.

also, is there an online list of what the actual changes were? my updater glitched and only showed me the previous version patch notes (it updated properly though, ingame it says v1.4.0)
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
Hm... not sure. Some of the patch changes didn't appear at the PTR and some have been changed a coupple of times, honestly I have no idea what they have changed anymore. Meh. :D
 

UndeadDragon

Super Moderator
Staff member
It appears that the neural parasite vs massive has been removed and replaced with: "Neural Parasite range decreased from 9 to 7. "
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
The patch is alive for EU, nice interface changes

StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.0

General


A new Career page displaying placement in past seasons has been added to the League & Ladders section of the Profile.
A new "View Ladder" button has been added to the league display at the bottom of the Quick Match screen. Clicking this button will take you directly to your ladder page.
The post-game score screen for ranked ladder games will now show icons next to each player's name indicating his or her league.
The upload timeout period for publishing custom maps has been increased significantly.
SLI performance has been improved.
When file corruption is detected in un-repairable files (replays, saved games, or downloaded maps), a prompt to run the Repair Tool will no longer occur.


Game Options
Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section.
Only allow friends to send me invites.
Only allow friends to send me chat messages.
Set status to Busy when playing a game.
Added the FPS Toggle hotkey to the hotkey dialog.
Added Display Game Tooltips setting to the Options under Gameplay that can be turned off to prevent tooltips from appearing when playing a game.
Added a new setting to the Options under Controls which allows a player to enable or disable the ability to adjust in-game mouse sensitivity.


UI and Display
A Launch PTR button will now appear on the login screen when the PTR is available. Clicking this button will close the retail client and launch the PTR client.
Improved error messages when a unit is required but none is targeted to provide required target information.
UI Frame used in .SC2Layout files has more anchoring flexibility.
Loading an old saved game will now give an option to restart the mission in the new version of StarCraft II instead of loading it in the old version without access to achievements.
Player names in the Name Panel in observer or replay mode will now be based off the player's locations on the minimap. For example the player closer to the left side of the minimap will appear on the left side of the name panel.
When a building is canceled or salvaged the minerals returned will be displayed at the building location for the owner, for enemy players a floating text will be displayed.
Toggle Team Colors in 1v1 and Free-for-All when observing and during a replay will not change player colors.


Sound
An error notification sound is now played if a placement location cannot be found when unit training completes.
Most existing alert sounds are now reduced in volume when a new alert sound plays.
Transmissions without a valid sound file will now display a subtitle during cinematics even if the player has turned off subtitles.
Added a new Alert Fade option to control how much existing alert sounds fade when new alert sounds are played.

Balance


General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.


PROTOSS
Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.
The Mothership's Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate "Mothership Lag" issue when a Mothership comes online.
Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.


TERRAN
Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.


ZERG
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Neural Parasite range decreased from 9 to 7.
Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.


I get an error when I try to install it. I should get my new PC tomorrow, so might as well wait one day before playing.
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
> Contaminate energy cost increased

Was that a problem?
Can't say I remember when I last seen it used...
 

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
> Contaminate energy cost increased

Was that a problem?
Can't say I remember when I last seen it used...
I think they changed this because they buffed the production costs for the overseer. They cost only half the gas as they used to, therefor they increase the energy cost for the spell, otherwise it might get spammed all over the place.
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
>Was that a problem?
Can't say I remember when I last seen it used...

In my opinion the tweaks regarding the overseer are bullshit.


(however I am not really competent enough to have a solid opinion)
 

Accname

2D-Graphics enthusiast
I dont think so. The overseer isnt of very much use, its usually used as a sacrificial scout if you havent researched overlord speed yet. Or it is used as a cloak detection.
If it is used only for those 2 functions the cost of 100 gas is quite high in my opinion and i like it, that it got buffed down to 50 gas.
However, the contamination ability is not useless, its very powerful against zerg.
If you use this spell against a hatchery it cannot spawn larvae for the full duration, this can block unit training completely if done properly.

I like the changes, less cost == more use of the unit.
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
I welcome any Zerg change that says "cheaper".

After all, while Zerg has overall less unit types to choose from, the entire point is to have "more".
As in, if your 10 Zerglings don't quite get the job done, come back with 20.
Or, if your 20 Roaches "don't work", try again with 50... that gets you stuff done :p

In times when you need the mobile detection... well, if your one Overseer meets 10 Vikings whose only job it is to take him out... you welcome "cheap unit".


Still no Hero icons with the Zerg interface :(
 

GFreak45

I didnt slap you, i high 5'd your face.
TBH, No Zerg should ever lose against a Terran who gets 10 Vikings to deal with 1 Overseer...
lololol... that depends, if they have a surplus of pwnage why not use a nuke on a zergling

just for shits and giggles :D
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
Staff member
TBH, No Zerg should ever lose against a Terran who gets 10 Vikings to deal with 1 Overseer...
Getting, 10 vikings to deal with one overseer is not cost effective, however there is a certain build used in tvt and tvz where the terran is on 2 base with 3 CC's and goes viking cloacked banshee, overseers are the only mobile detection and I assume that in some scenarios the only cost effective thing against this build is.... infestors.
 
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