Poll: Have you ever consider yourself an all-time SC2 Custom Game player?

[tom_mai78101]

Let's face it, custom games have more genres and more gameplay than ladder/melee games.

I know a lot of you are much stronger than me, but are you stronger than me if you and I face-off in a custom game together? I know the answer, stop hiding it.

But, to think that you can actually devote yourself to playing only Custom Games in StarCraft II, does it matter if you're Unranked in ladder matches, but still beat a Platinum player in Custom Game Melee Map? (You should act surprised at this point...)

So, what are your opinions about devoting yourself to Custom Games? What does it feel like, to surprise people all around you that, an Unranked player can beat Top Rank players in a random 1vs1 match-up? Isn't that cool in your eyes for 1 split second, that all the audience looked at you, as Jesus from Heavens, and that Platinum player kneels down before you, saying, "I admit defeat..."?


Note to Self: Imagination works wonders here in this thread.

 

[s3rius]

What do you mean by Custom Game Melee Maps? Just normal melee maps? Or real UMS maps like AoS, tower defenses and stuff? Because you're talking about more genres and gameplay..

If it's the latter then so what? That's like beating a Poker expert in Rommee. Both played with cards but still vastly different (I think. Not that I've ever played Rommee lol).

If it's the former: Then you'll still have to be really really good. Of course an unranked player can beat a top rank player, because it's not the rank that makes you good, but it's the player who gets a rank based on his skill!
But in all honesty - how often does it happen? I know myself how bad most of the melee custom gamers are. They play custom to fool around or because they just don't want to spoil their w/l ratio. The chance to get this good by only playing custom games is fairly small.

And I would like to add that a Platinum player is by no means a Top Rank. He's only just started to learn.

And I would also like to add that it's not all that heroic most of the time. The higher a person's rank the more idiotic they can act. I got a friend who's stuck in Bronze but is actually being matched versus Platinum/Diamond leaguers. Every now and then one of his enemies messages him after the game and cries around how what a shitty little bronze noob he is.

The most flattery comment I ever got is "You've only played so few games.. how can you be so good?" (Officially I'm only platinum with ~30 games), but I've never had someone go "You've opened my eyes - rank doesn't matter and I have to admit defeat." on me.

Personally I don't see why someone should only play custom melee. The matchmaking system attempts to match you versus opponents of about the same skill who - just like you - want to become better and better. Isn't that kind of competition much better training than beating up random people in customs?

 

[tom_mai78101]

Beware: Wall of Text

Any custom maps would be perfectly fine.

Multiplayer can be split up into Ladder Games and Multiplayer Custom Games.
There are two sectors in Multiplayer Custom Game: Custom Game (literally), and Melee Games.
Melee Games are split evenly into groups, and they can either be a normal melee map by Blizzard, or it could be a melee map with some additional stuffs added.
Custom Games, by all definitions, are pretty ranged in-between causal to extreme, and that the map's game genre is different than melee.

I do see the point what S3rius pointed out in my poll question, so kudos to that. I was specifically asking if a StarCraft II player would want to devote to play Custom Games only. There are some points need mentioning, and those aren't in the first post, so I'll try explaining more (in hi-definition details):

1. As mentioned above, Custom Games are split into Custom Games and Melee Games. If you're an devoted Custom Games player, you can try and play Custom Games, or you can try playing Melee Games. As mentioned by S3rius that by playing in Melee Games, it has a higher chance of meeting a higher-level player when you play against that person. And when S3rius said about being good in such a game, I was thinking more about Ladder Games. Actually, in Custom Melee Games, we don't have to entirely pit ourselves against higher-level players, and instead, we can choose to ally him against a pre-dominonant player, specifically named Computer. We can learn something from our allies and their build orders, and we can improve ourselves from there. But, in Ladder Games, players get pit against each other, more like forced to pit against each other. Why not have a map with 4 players, 1vs1 on both sides of the map, and mess around with the meta-games of StarCraft II? In Custom Games, we can do the possible (when Chatrooms are available), but in Ladder Games, it's pretty bleak, especially since we can't choose our opponents/allies. So, for players who want to get better, like what S3rius said, the best way would be Ladder Games, and according to Day9's theorem, Constraints can give a person Creativity. But for players who wanted to have fun, choose Custom Melee Games. Won't that makes you wanted to devote yourself to Custom Games in its entirely?

2. As mentioned above, Custom Games can span across many different types of game genres that aren't Melee. They can range from RPG to First-Person Shooter. And you wanted to play such games with your Starcraft II friends. What about your other gaming friends? What about your social friends? It's true that Starcraft II can give a big impression that it's all about real-time strategy. And that Blizzard made a great one to all gamers out there who haven't played this game yet ever since when Starcraft was released. Not going back to the past, how would you introduce this game to your friend? That's when you, as a devoted Custom Game player, you can introduce this game, starting from picking out maps with the same or similar game genres your friend is more likely to play in. You can actually tell him, that Starcraft II isn't meant for playing "real-time strategy only" stuffs, and it's about having fun in different styles. (Probably this is the reason what drove Blizzard to inplement Facebook in Battle.net, so as to make Multiplayer a more social community. This is my hypothesis.) Even though game genres/styles/gameplay alters per map, it's still revolves around the basis Fun. You can share it around with others (when Patch 1.2 is out). So, devoting to Custom Games doesn't sound like a burden, does it?

3. Just as S3rius mentioned, a higher-ranked player may not act maturely when battling against a lower-ranked player. In Ladder Games, we don't believe in that, and we play competitively with each other. In Custom Games, things like these happen, and it's unavoidable. It's like you're playing with a bully, without any physical interactions with each other. I believed that there's a higher chance this will happen when you are playing against another in Custom Melee Games. And it might have a lower chance it will happen in other custom game maps. But I'm not a guy that cares about the statistics of each one. When playing competitively, we look up to each other, but only if you're playing competitively with someone, will you then feel this honorable feeling, this "glory", a sensation that only rivals can understand most of the time. (I don't know how to express it in words.) When not playing competitively, we look at something distinctive, and if we see a huge gap in-between, bad things starts to happen. (Was it in a Social Studies lesson that taught about this?) That shouldn't be a deciding factor for a Custom Game player, as there are unbalanced inequalities on both sides, competitive and non-competitive. So, when playing a game, it's unlikely for us to see a competitive side in the Custom Game sector, since everyone sees it as an average place to hang out, and that whatever you play won't affect your rankings. Once Patch 1.2 goes live worldwide, I believe this non-competitive side may vanish and we can join games that we wanted to in Multiplayer.

So, transliterating all above, I'm just simply asking if you wanted to devote yourself to playing Custom Games only. Just that. I hoped this is detailed enough.

 

[s3rius]

I do see the point what S3rius pointed out in my poll question, so kudos to that. I was specifically asking if a StarCraft II player would want to devote to play Custom Games only.

Oh, I believe there are a lot of people "devoted" to Custom games. Just like in Warcraft III where tons of people would only play DotA, Battleships, tower defenses or other UMS maps.
But basically a lot of them were playing their own ladder games. DotA or Battleships were just like ladder games, only without the global ranking (actually there were game bots keeping statistics on players). They all wanted the competition and the enjoyment of winning it - they just chose a different game.

And when S3rius said about being good in such a game, I was thinking more about Ladder Games. Actually, in Custom Melee Games, we don't have to entirely pit ourselves against higher-level players, and instead, we can choose to ally him against a pre-dominonant player, specifically named Computer.

There is 2v2 and Coop-vs-Computer game types. Though the last one basically falls into the category of Custom Melee Games.

We can learn something from our allies and their build orders, and we can improve ourselves from there. But, in Ladder Games, players get pit against each other, more like forced to pit against each other.

That's not true. If I play in a team versus a computer player - what do I learn from strategies which are designed to combat a stupid AI? Event Insane AI has flaws which can be abused. If my ally cannon-rushes an AI opponent that won't help me get better.
However, if my enemy cannon-rushes me in 1v1 and I die to it THEN I can get better. I watch the replay, see how something like this could happen to me, what the indications to identify a cannon-rush are and how I can stop it.
I would say you always learn more when you feel it's impact yourself, instead of being a somewhat unrelated 3rd person.

Why not have a map with 4 players, 1vs1 on both sides of the map, and mess around with the meta-games of StarCraft II? In Custom Games, we can do the possible (when Chatrooms are available), but in Ladder Games, it's pretty bleak, especially since we can't choose our opponents/allies.

Well, these things are meant to be custom games. Just like hotkey trainers, build order trainers or unit test maps. These things are just outside the standard ladder games and should be regarded as those.
I often use computer AI to train my build order when I figure out a new strat, but I'm not learning a new strat in order to be better in custom melee games.

But for players who wanted to have fun, choose Custom Melee Games. Won't that makes you wanted to devote yourself to Custom Games in its entirely?

Yes!
Everyone plays Starcraft for his own goals. Some want to have fun by competing with others in ladder. Others want to compete in custom games. Others prefer games where you team up to fight a common enemy, others want to mess around as much as possible.

So, devoting to Custom Games doesn't sound like a burden, does it?

You just said everything revolves around Fun. Why devote yourself at all? To me devotion carries the meaning of sacrificing everything to put a single thing into focus. Sacifices aren't fun, so why devote to something in the first place? Just play what you like when you like

3. Just as S3rius mentioned, a higher-ranked player may not act maturely when battling against a lower-ranked player. In Ladder Games, we don't believe in that, and we play competitively with each other. In Custom Games, things like these happen, and it's unavoidable.

Actually all my examples stem from Ladder games. Ladderes are usually more arrogant and full of themselves. Custom Gamers often have a more laid-back attitude since they don't value winning as much as ladderes. That's not always the case, though.

Constraints can give a person Creativity.

When I heard that from Day9 first I didn't pay too much attention to that quote. But the more I think about it the more I see how incredibly true that is.
You have a problem. You sit down and look at your resources. And you don't stop thinking until you know exactly how to allocate your resources to solve the problem.

 

[tooltiperror]

This is going to sort of look like spam at first, but, it's not.

I watched this thing in science class once where a monkey, chimpanzee I'm assuming, had food at the bottom of a long skinny tube he couldn't reach in, and water. It immediately took the water and poured it into the hole, the nut floated up, and it ate it.

I don't know how this relates, but it just does to the whole idea of constraints.

 

[tom_mai78101]

Oh, I believe there are a lot of people "devoted" to Custom games. Just like in Warcraft III where tons of people would only play DotA, Battleships, tower defenses or other UMS maps.

Exactly. And since a lot of players more or less are devoted to Custom Games, it wouldn't rule out the possibility that a player can be devoted entirely to Custom Games.

But basically a lot of them were playing their own ladder games. DotA or Battleships were just like ladder games, only without the global ranking (actually there were game bots keeping statistics on players). They all wanted the competition and the enjoyment of winning it - they just chose a different game.

Good point. But, since the different ladder games falls outside of standard gameplay of the rules Blizzard made in the first place, we would be labeling them as Custom Games, according to those. This is something I didn't realize until now.

That's not true. If I play in a team versus a computer player - what do I learn from strategies which are designed to combat a stupid AI? Event Insane AI has flaws which can be abused. If my ally cannon-rushes an AI opponent that won't help me get better.
However, if my enemy cannon-rushes me in 1v1 and I die to it THEN I can get better. I watch the replay, see how something like this could happen to me, what the indications to identify a cannon-rush are and how I can stop it.
I would say you always learn more when you feel it's impact yourself, instead of being a somewhat unrelated 3rd person.

So, what would you do if you never knew how to abuse the AI flaws? I do know AIs have flaws in them, but I hate myself allowing to use the abusive flaws as my advantage, and if I did that, it would take the fun entirely out of computer players. I know just a few people (not a lot, really) who just practice with computers, but they battled the computers out in the front line. They said they were practicing how to deal with attacks laid out in the front, and not using drops in the back, or using other strategies player humans may do. So, it's not always a bad thing to do with computer players, it's just that the strategies we can practice with computers are very limited, and they aren't as rewarding as against human enemy player(s). This is why many players frown upon this.

This is similar to constraints, and you're constraining yourself not to abuse AI flaws when battling with computer players. But that's not a good one. I wouldn't like it if I have to play the same thing (as in a pattern, or one kind of strategy) over and over again. I would like to play a diverse pattern with an enemy, whether it's AI or human. So, in short, good point.

Well, these things are meant to be custom games. Just like hotkey trainers, build order trainers or unit test maps. These things are just outside the standard ladder games and should be regarded as those. I often use computer AI to train my build order when I figure out a new strat, but I'm not learning a new strat in order to be better in custom melee games.

True.

You just said everything revolves around Fun. Why devote yourself at all? To me devotion carries the meaning of sacrificing everything to put a single thing into focus. Sacifices aren't fun, so why devote to something in the first place? Just play what you like when you like

Sacrificing? Wow, I never thought of that. Another good point.

Actually all my examples stem from Ladder games. Ladderes are usually more arrogant and full of themselves. Custom Gamers often have a more laid-back attitude since they don't value winning as much as ladderes. That's not always the case, though.

Quoted for Truth!

When I heard that from Day9 first I didn't pay too much attention to that quote. But the more I think about it the more I see how incredibly true that is. You have a problem. You sit down and look at your resources. And you don't stop thinking until you know exactly how to allocate your resources to solve the problem.

Now, do you think what Day9 said is a "theorem"? I can't believe how true it is!

-------------------------------

Just wanted to mention something else:

In Custom Games, it's easy to make rules for a game you want people to play. If you want your players to think up something, give them harder game rules to follow. If you want casual gaming, and don't want your players to think a lot, give them more abilities and rewards. If you want a competition, start from making a balanced game and rules that are easy to remember, like basketball or soccer, and without mentioning the detailed rules in them, like when's a foul, or what happens if there are exceptional situations, etc. By that, it indicates that you have a variety of rules you can set in games you want to play. And that's how map makers make games. Especially by Blizzard. They give us a set of rules in standard ladder gameplay, and we create strategies from it.

The more I try to explain, it more it feels like ladder games are custom games...in fact all games are like that, like Call of Duty: Black Ops, or Civilization 5. Get that sensation?

 

[Bloodcount]

SCII melee rulz. It is fucking awesome, and I bet that anyone who has played the game on gold level or above will agree. So, no, no I don't consider myself to be a custom game player. Sure, I have 700+ custom games, but those are mostly 1v1 games with friends/show(off) matches and stuff like that. I have played arround 100-200 custom games (of custom maps) and again, they were most of the time with friends.

 

[BANANAMAN]

I mostly play Star Battle now,That map has a great replay value when you have an organized team but i do play melee form time to time when i feel like it.

 

[YourFace]

Melee takes strategy and skill, it's only fun when you have both. Custom games are for fun and beginners or pros who are chilling.
Day 9 sux you learn nothing

 

[Oninuva]

Pretty sure that anyone that's good at Ladder or Melee would have no problem at all playing custom games.

 

[Ioannes]

Long time to go until I play custom games. Also, melee games are fun, gotta give it to the development team. When I'm not against a pro.