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Thanks for the support everyone, now let's cut the spam. \


Ps How the fuck can there be ppl with 2000+ points in bronze ? Hell, I have even seen a guy with 1K wins in bronze, how the shit is that possible ?!

Ps 2 Bananaman rulz (as usual)

EDIT: What I was trying to say is that you need al 3 tier 1 units, they are just that good. After that you need either spire or hydra den or infestation pit (you will get it eventually for the hive upgrade BUT your unit composition like, for example a mass infestor attack (where you shit a ton of infested terrans and then sweep the rest with lings/blings) might require it asap)

So to sum up, you need 2/3rds of the Z tech tree to be able to deal with just about anything rather well. Eventually when you run on 3+ bases get the rest.
 
I do play Protoss, but I also play Zerg. I can't see how it's a problem.

But which is your main/specialist race?

Anyway, I will 99% be transitioning to terran or toss. After you see this game you will get my point. It would appear that I am just not ment to be zerg.

Try Banelings. Stalkers Melt vs Bane/Zling/Muta without Colossi support and that's only because They have Map control/speed and they are that mobile.
 
> But which is your main/specialist race?
He got up to Gold with Zerg as his primary race, and has recently switched to Protoss. Correct me if I'm wrong (Vestras).
 
@Vestras:I think a protoss player giving zerg players advice is kinda...wrong.

While Bloodcount is right in some aspects getting every tech option is a bad idea.You would want to optimize offensive unit production as much as possible,Remember each drone used to create a building that opens up a tech option you wouldn't use as soon as it finishes morphing is one drone that could've have been used to harvest resources.

I had the pleasure to play a dozen games versus Vestras. His Zerg is about as good as his Protoss. So he's competent in both fields.

And as a Terran player myself I can tell that I've had less problems fighting Zerg who "optimized" their build.
Players who can deploy a wide variety of units are much harder to combat.
If I see my opponent will only go ling/roach or ling/muta for a long time then I can adapt to it relatively well.
But when I'm fighting roaches and two minutes later I suddenly face a bunch of mutas, then five minutes later there suddenly are ling/blings then THIS really hits me hard.
As a Terran I have to decide what I get. I can't just switch from mass marines to mass marauders, or mass tanks. I need time and a lot of money for that.
That's one of the huge advantages of Zerg macro - the ability to switch production so damn quickly.

The two or three drones you lose for additional tech buildings and some money are well spent. And you don't have to throw down everything at once. It's just a good idea to get all tech options during mid-game.
 
>He got up to Gold with Zerg as his primary race, and has recently switched to Protoss. Correct me if I'm wrong (Vestras).

So technically his rank as zerg is gold, not "close to high plat" and when (eventually) he gets promoted to platinum, he will be promoted with his toss skills.

I see.

>So he's competent in both fields.

Competent doesn't quite cut it. Else Day(9)'s newbie tuesday would be acompanied by 302945849 more shows of it's kind.

No offense to vestras or anything, but imo Bananaman is one of the 2 ppl on this site that can give relevant oppinion and help with the zerg skills of anyone. The other one has been inactive for a while now...

>Try Banelings. Stalkers Melt vs Bane/Zling/Muta without Colossi support and that's only because They have Map control/speed and they are that mobile.


Ye, banelings are really underrated in pvz. I will play some zerg tonight, hopefully I will be able to utilize the blings :)
 
Meh

Meh, I'm in 3 plat leagues but I still think I really suck :p (and yes I got there from silver). ~ If you're on the Euro servers you can add me as "Binas" with number code thingy 864

Here's another replay of me being not so good
 

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I should probably play ladder more because I'm too lazy to ladder up from bronze. What? The SEA server is pretty hard :p



I had the pleasure to play a dozen games versus Vestras. His Zerg is about as good as his Protoss. So he's competent in both fields.

And as a Terran player myself I can tell that I've had less problems fighting Zerg who "optimized" their build.
Players who can deploy a wide variety of units are much harder to combat.
If I see my opponent will only go ling/roach or ling/muta for a long time then I can adapt to it relatively well.
But when I'm fighting roaches and two minutes later I suddenly face a bunch of mutas, then five minutes later there suddenly are ling/blings then THIS really hits me hard.
As a Terran I have to decide what I get. I can't just switch from mass marines to mass marauders, or mass tanks. I need time and a lot of money for that.
That's one of the huge advantages of Zerg macro - the ability to switch production so damn quickly.

The two or three drones you lose for additional tech buildings and some money are well spent. And you don't have to throw down everything at once. It's just a good idea to get all tech options during mid-game.

What your facing isn't a player that got all tech options at the same time but rather a Zerg who has adapted to your strategies.Remember you can't use the same resource or larvae to produce the same unit (Banelings don't count since you loose a zergling when you create one).While a highly diversified force is indeed hard to counter sometimes a large quantity of units or a large quantity of a unit combination does the job just as well.Generally in Z play you would only see 3 types of units fielded at a given time.Usually two unit types make up the main force while the third unit type acts as primary support.One fine example of this is Muta/Bling/Zling. Mutas provide aerial cover while the Bling and Zlings eat up enemy ground forces.Of course this is relative to the situation at hand.Sometimes that combo would do fairly better with Infestor/Hydra support in certain situations.It all depends on how the player does it.

Also just going to put this out there:When dealing with thors using mutas you will want to magic box them,fly them over the thor and press hold position as soon as they're clumped up over it.This would spread them out evenly which would minimize splash damage.Of course this skill is pretty useless when there are 5 or more of them present but still pretty handy to master.
 
What your facing isn't a player that got all tech options at the same time but rather a Zerg who has adapted to your strategies.Remember you can't use the same resource or larvae to produce the same unit (Banelings don't count since you loose a zergling when you create one).While a highly diversified force is indeed hard to counter sometimes a large quantity of units or a large quantity of a unit combination does the job just as well.

Yes, you could say he is adapting to my strategy. But how does he do so?
By switching his unit types as fast as I can adapt to them.
And for that you need most of all tech options.

Of course I'm not saying you should attack with a little bit of everything. A specialized army (e.g. Muta/bane/ling) is generally stronger than a rag-tag with everything thrown together, but often changing your specialization now and then is what makes it nasty.

I can survive baneling/zergling by getting a Marauder-heavy infantry army. Then suddenly I'm more vulnerable to Muta/ling. Once I more Marine-heavy again I'm weak against Bling/Infestor/Roach to some extend.

It's easy for Zerg to do that switch. Instead of hitting the Z button like a maniac you start hitting the T button. And voila.
A terran can't pump everything out of his barracks.
 
Yes, you could say he is adapting to my strategy. But how does he do so?
By switching his unit types as fast as I can adapt to them.
And for that you need most of all tech options

That's because he only got them when the time was right to do so.Good Zerg players and or players in general have this "sense" whether or not getting a particular tech option is a good idea.Of course it takes a lot of practice to get it right.Scouting also provides a key role on how your opponent knows when's the perfect time to switch tech options.This is why i take the Xel'Naga towers as soon as possible and spread out a net of info lings (burrowed or not) through out the map at all possible locations.That way i can monitor enemy movement and adapt my strategy accordingly.

Also:I find Terrans to be much more flexible in terms of Tech trees.

The Terran tech tree is flexible in a sense that you need a barrack to tech up.A barrack can either have a tech or Reactor add on.The tech add on will allow you to train most of the infantry units in the barracks that's already several unit combinations possible.Next You need a Factory to get a starport.Factories require barracks.The barracks has a tech addon,the factory has a tech addon and the starport has a tech addon.Now the terran can choose and variate between having a pure Bioball,pure mech,aerial based unit combo,etc while building only a few buildings to supplement it.Not to mention the abillity to switch addons.A factory can have a reactor addon for massing hellions and the barracks can have a tech reactor for massing marauders.A few minutes later you have the same factory producing siege tanks and the same barracks massing marines with the tech reactor.
 
>He got up to Gold with Zerg as his primary race, and has recently switched to Protoss. Correct me if I'm wrong (Vestras).

So technically his rank as zerg is gold, not "close to high plat" and when (eventually) he gets promoted to platinum, he will be promoted with his toss skills.

I see.

>So he's competent in both fields.

Competent doesn't quite cut it. Else Day(9)'s newbie tuesday would be acompanied by 302945849 more shows of it's kind.

No offense to vestras or anything, but imo Bananaman is one of the 2 ppl on this site that can give relevant oppinion and help with the zerg skills of anyone. The other one has been inactive for a while now...

Why continue the meaningless rant about rank? You've told me yourself on various occasions how rank doesn't matter since you can beat several diamond players. Are you in diamond?

Why is competent not enough? This thread doesn't try to look like the best possible way to improve as a zerg but it's better than doing nothing. Especially if you don't know why you lost(even after watching a replay) posting the replay to let someone else watch it and comment is a good way to learn.

Also, if the other person is not you(by some weird logic) you have to remember that you gave zerg advice in this very thread not long ago.

People also have to remember that it's easier to comment what a person did wrong in a game than to do it right. Just because you can watch a replay and give useful tips doesn't mean you're capable of playing on that level.

Please keep the thread on-topic.
 
@Siretu:Man I should know since I'm still stuck in bronze even though i give good zerg advice.I know a lot of Zerg tactics but I lack the proficiency in executing them. :p

Which is why i advise anyone who's reading this to grind those games when you have time.
 
I has need help!

Bump:I decided to watch the first replay you uploaded carefully and here's my analysis.

Lack of Zerglings/banelings early game:You where too greedy which cost you the match.Before saturating and expanding make sure you have enough units to defend the main base and your expansion.I always open with banelings in ZvT since Roaches have a huge disadvantage vs Marauder/Marine and Zergling/Banelings are much more cost effective and they don't require as much upgrades to be a large threat.

Spire and the large gap between getting mutalisks:You have the spire,You have the resources and yet why didn't you make mutalisks as soon as you where able to? Your opponent didn't field thors which makes it easier for you when you use Muta/Bling/Zling to counter his push or just Bling/Zling during that one time he only had one tank.Marine/Marauder/Tank simply can not fight against Muta/ Speed Bling/Zling.

Too many upgrades not enough offensive units:Only get upgrades when your units need them.You where right in getting burrow and burrow movement for the roaches but then like i said you only need the speed upgrade for both Bling and Zerglings to make them efficent killing machines vs Tank/marine/marauder.

Lack of Pressure:Seems to me that the Terran was just playing with you the whole game.Which should be the other way around.

Reaction to Battlecruisers:Trying to amass Hydralisks or Mutalisks vs BC's is wrong. The minute you see BC's better get some corruptors in the Air asap.

Baneling sneak attack:Try doing something like that at multiple angles to maximize it's efficiency.


On a positive note:You held out much longer than i expected after the first assault.Usually after the Terran wipes out your expansion and still has enough forces remaining vs your meager or nonexistent force that's usually the part where the Zerg says "gg"
 
Why continue the meaningless rant about rank? You've told me yourself on various occasions how rank doesn't matter since you can beat several diamond players. Are you in diamond?

Why is competent not enough? This thread doesn't try to look like the best possible way to improve as a zerg but it's better than doing nothing. Especially if you don't know why you lost(even after watching a replay) posting the replay to let someone else watch it and comment is a good way to learn.

Also, if the other person is not you(by some weird logic) you have to remember that you gave zerg advice in this very thread not long ago.

People also have to remember that it's easier to comment what a person did wrong in a game than to do it right. Just because you can watch a replay and give useful tips doesn't mean you're capable of playing on that level.

Please keep the thread on-topic.

The only reason why I will not get my self banned for this post is because I had somewhat of respect for you.

>Are you in diamond?

I stopped playing 1v1 for a month and a half IN that time the ppl in my division have played a lot. IN the end I end up at catching up with 800 points with the first one. 2 weeks ago I started to play 1v1 again (or was it 1 week) and the gap is ~400 points now.

No, I am not in diamond, but I am not starting a newbie support thread, wich I am supposed to lead, now am I ?

>You've told me yourself on various occasions how rank doesn't matter since you can beat several diamond players

You fail to see the point. When you start support threads, you should start them in a field in wich you are experienced.

I can make stand alone games, you don't see me maiking various tutorials, right ? I am competent, but I am sure that if a pro steps in he will see a lot of way with witch I can correct my way of creating the games.

>Why is competent not enough?
Why is it enough ?

>This thread doesn't try to look like the best possible way to improve as a zerg but it's better than doing nothing.

YOU must watch YOUR replays, so that you can build up YOUR way of seing the game, so that you can react better, build up a reflex if you will.

I did post some replays, it was to tests vestras analisation skillz. When I need help I play. If I loose I QQ, maybe rage and play some more.

>Also, if the other person is not you(by some weird logic)

Ofcourse it is not me.

>you have to remember that you gave zerg advice in this very thread not long ago.

Since one of the pro's is already keeping an eye on this thread I might as well take my shot and see what he thinks about my way of thinking and what advice I can get from him.

>watch a replay and give useful tips doesn't mean you're capable of playing on that level.

Qft

>Please keep the thread on-topic.

Bullshit. You have my skype, if you cared about proving me wrong you would have done it via skype, where we can have a discussion in real time. I said that I won't flame in the beginning of the post so I will not make a prediction of who QQ'ed until you felt pity and decided to step up for him.

Also, cut the spam, already. If there is something, you know my skype.
 
You dont need units before expanding and saturating. Just good scouting information, so you can react when the push comes.

Always have one or two lings outside of enemy base. Screw the watch towers and go as close with your scouts as you can. It buys you some very precious seconds for spawning some fighting units.

Getting spines for early defence is actually better for your economy than massing zerlings. This is because you need loads of larva for drone-spam so you can saturate your expansions. Also when you see push coming, you can still turn your larva to units, but spines just build too slowly to be there in time.



Getting roach is not bad at all, but you should also get banes too. They indeed work best in that situation.
Having all the tech buildings is a huge advantage and gives you possibility to instantly switch your army composition. Its one of those things that makes zerg strong. Build all tech buildings whenever you got resources to spare.
 
You dont need units before expanding and saturating. Just good scouting information, so you can react when the push comes.

Always have one or two lings outside of enemy base. Screw the watch towers and go as close with your scouts as you can. It buys you some very precious seconds for spawning some fighting units.

Getting spines for early defence is actually better for your economy than massing zerlings. This is because you need loads of larva for drone-spam so you can saturate your expansions. Also when you see push coming, you can still turn your larva to units, but spines just build too slowly to be there in time.



Getting roach is not bad at all, but you should also get banes too. They indeed work best in that situation.
Having all the tech buildings is a huge advantage and gives you possibility to instantly switch your army composition. Its one of those things that makes zerg strong. Build all tech buildings whenever you got resources to spare.

Spines isn't really cost effective IMO.A large marauder/marine force will tear through them simply because they don't deal damage fast enough even if you have 3 or more of them packed together vs a marauder/marine force.There's also the fact that Siege tanks can out range and out maneuver them.Zerglings on the other hand are cheaper and coupled with blings are a force to be reckoned with without proper support such as banshees,hellions and the like assisting the Marauder/marine force.

Roaches are not viable against large numbers of marauders their job better suited to anti hellion play if the terran goes Thor/hellion.Banelings kill more marauders than roaches due to their mobility and speed.Marauders and Marines can't simply fight against superior number of Banelings/Zerglings with speed upgrades.Having 1 or two tanks present might even the odds but the the Zerg player can just chuck more banelings after the marauder/marine threat has been neautralised and the tanks are all that's left.A careless terran will sometimes be fooled into thinking that the zergling/bling force threat is gone so he will push farther into your base while more marines/marauders are on the way from his base.Suddenly the Terran player sees eggs and tries to retreat his remaining tanks but it's too late.Without support they soon fall to the ravenous newly spawned Zerglings.

That's the thing with Zerglings and Banelings.You can kill them but more will soon take their place unless you destroy the enemy's economy to the last drone.


Having units before expanding would mean several things.First off security.Your opponent won't exactly pull something like a bunker rush with zergling hoards around.Second point,pressure.If you're expanding you should always always pressure your opponent you must be unrelenting,and you must never,ever give your opponent room to breathe.You must dictate the pace and not the other way around.Momentum is key once a Zerg play reaches that particular point in the game everything just snowballs down to his/her opponent's defeat.That is why the Zerg must always attack,always expand,never resting,and always,ALWAYS keep coming back for more.And how do you achieve this? By having a force to ensure your opponent will hesitate moving out of his/her base because you alone should control the map.Nothing else matters.The Terran can turtle all they want but they'll never stop the swarm outside their doorstep.

@Bloodcount and everyone else:Cut the meaningless flaming.This is a thread geared towards helping zerg players.If you're willing to give advice then do so.No one is right or wrong when giving advice but it will be up to the person receiving it to decide whether or not he should follow it.
 
Using few spines to defend expansion is juts way better for your economy than only expanding after getting loads of lings&banes.

Let me explain you why:

Its because of larva mechanics.
The key of strong zerg economy is that when expanding and teching you never make more units that you need to defend yourself. Use your larva to make drones instead. Drones are the economy.


When you scout your enemy ( lets say he terran ) and see that hes not going for any fast cheese builds, you can safely start mutating a hacth to your natural before getting any lings.

When you get lings, you only get 2 of them and leave them just outside enemy base, so you can see when he moves out.

Now, after this each ling pair you make means one less drone for your mineral and gas mining operations.

If enemy has wall, you cant really use those lings for harrasing, anyways, so what you can do its to make drones and expand and tech and try to out macro your enemy.

Queens are best for base defence. They dont cost any larva, so making them doesnt slow your mineral saturating down. And if you feel insecure you can throw down few spines crawlers too. They are better option than massing lings, because they cost a lot of less larva, which means that you can have more drones and stronger economy.


When going for macro game you dont wanna waste larva to anything else than drones before he pushes out. Queens can usually take care of helion and banshee harras abd stuff like that. If harras is too strong spawn only as little units as you need to handle it.

Harrasing units like mutalisk are different thing, though. And infestors, because you want to have as much energy on them as possible.

Lings and banes early is cool if you are not going for macro style game and try baneling-busting your enemy or something.
But making them for defence before even expanding just hurts your economy too bad, so I wouldnt do it unless my enemy forces me to react so with some really early pressure or something.
 
What you said is all well and good but i think if Sevion's problem is that he made Really really few if any Offensive units and way way too much drones.So much so that his min/gas pile up beyond the thousands.The terran on the other hand was more efficient in expenditures since he didn't over commit to having a strong economy along with going on the initiative to make it a point to make Sevion's game a lot tougher.

It's all about having a fine balance between economy production and offensive unit production.Too much drones and you can find yourself with too little in terms of defensive and offensive capabilities.Too little drones and you'll have a difficult time fielding enough troops against your enemy.I never said you shouldn't get spines but in my opinion in Sevion's situation in that Rep Zlings and Blings would've done a much better job in defending his natural than just 3-4 spines.If you study the force composition of the terran by the time sevion started making the spine crawlers you would find that the Marine/Marauder and tanks present are not able to deter a 12-24 mass of Zling/Bling.Which would mean that had he went Zling/Bling instead of spine crawlers not only would he have prevented the Terran from pushing into his natural but also giving him the upper hand in terms of offensive capability and map control.
 
Don't baneling bust without lings..

You never got the zergling speed.

You had only 3 unit types... if u had roach/bling you owuld have fended off his marine hellion attack as if it was a joke.

You never had your expo saturated properly.

If you want to go for early aggresion... start building attack units after 15-16 suply. Get your expo at 23-25.

I say this for a number of reasons. You have a limit of 8-10 that is floating. This is either 4-5 roaches, or 16-20 lings. I'd recommend the lings, they are great throughout the entire game AND 20 lings are waay better then 5 roaches, more mobile you can put preassure..

Anyway, after you have map control (YOU NEED SPEEDLINGS) feel free to expand, saturate, get blings and roaches, get lair and so on.

Baneling bust, and every timed push is semi-all in, meaning that if you dont do economic dmg, you might as well leave the game because you have sacrificed your larva for nothing.



This is my advice. :p
 
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