Reasons as why too only play the game and not mod/edit/create in it...

[Medeam]

I will link what has already been said before I start myself...
http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152168
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/galaxy-editor-help-zone-647/starcraft-2-editor-nightmare-169272/
http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?t=151253
http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?t=151532

Well I agree only on one thing that everyone else loves about this editor is that it is so epic-ly powerful but its only that way because it was made that way and the editor for wc3 can be fixed and done so in the same way even though problems such as trackables were never finished I have seen people fixing it like Kattana's locals or a few others.

But what if you want to create one entire new unit, first you must go through the pain of modifying like thousands of fields before you can get one new unit created... even a dummy unit for any people who still like coding.

Sure it looks cool what you can obtain on SC2 but do not forget that WC3 can do almost exactly the same thing even though the engines between these two great games are extremely horrific as well very awesome.

That being said would mean that even though the SC2 editor's engine is extremely fast/lightning and WC3's editor is like a turtle but I can still see the difference between having fun and just shitting yourself/ doing a five thousand word book.

I am not here to try to get you to stay with WC3 but I would prefer you to see the difference that SC2 isn't for mapmakers/modders but rather only gamers unless you have eight to twelve hours of free time a day like I do .

I do hope you see the point I am trying to make here and choose nicely rather then the attempt to flame/insult/degrade me/this thread/topic.

Oh, quick edit... Do not forget that the point variable can not be moved or destroyed but just like trackables from WC3. Sad day for people that love making projectile systems.

 

[Renendaru]

But what if you want to create one entire new unit, first you must go through the pain of modifying like thousands of fields before you can get one new unit created... even a dummy unit for any people who still like coding.

Took me 5 minutes to make a dummy unit used for damage. Just experimented and it worked out. The proper approach to the SC2 Editor is to explore it, not act like you know what you're doing.

 

[tom_mai78101]

Instead of exploring on one's own, it would require a cooperative relationship of necessary knowledge and curiosity to understand completely what something does in SC2 Editor.

The only thing we're lacking momentarily is a tutorial guide, or in detailed terms, a written documentation of one's own experience and trying to pass it down to the next generations, like a book and its purpose.

I, myself, don't understand how to map correctly in WC3, so I couldn't make a difference between SC2 and WC3.

 

[punwisp]

Most of the first posts on those links, are people who are extremely inexperienced or have no idea what there talking about.

World editor to Galaxy editor is just as a big jump as Staredit to World Editor.

People have to high of expectations, then if its not as simple as they thought, they whine and don't bother.

Yea making a unit can be very complicated at first, but I GUARANTEED, once you know how, and know your way around it, its so easy to do, as easy as copying and pasting in Wc3.

Yes, wc3 is simpler, infact its so simple it limits you. Sc2, you can edit basically everything about a unit.

Sc2s editor isnt NEARLY as user friendly, but its more user friendly then most editors out there.

People also dont get this simple fact

ITS THE FUCKING BETA! They have been TESTING IT, and they didn't even give us the FULL editor, they left numerous of things out.

 

[Drakethos]

Sc2 editor, has a lot of power that wc3's doesn't. Yes there's a bit more work, but you can selectively copy what you need from other units. You don't have to build stuff from scratch. While there is a lot of things you have to do manually, sc2 has the ability to export the object data and easily apply it to other maps through mods. To say one shouldn't try to make sc2 maps is a bit over the top. Yes I do agree with the complexity of the editor, there will be a lot of crappy maps, but there will be many good maps too. It will take sometime before the map making community builds up. It took years for the wc3 mapping community to unfold. It will take a while for modders to learn the new editor and create tutorials on them.
-
I think the real problem with sc2, is with such a large shift it is overwhelming for anyone especially those used to wc3's editor. I was overwhelmed myself, but at the same time I was ecstatic at the new found power. Not to mention, in regards to wc3, the editor has the ability to open legacy maps ( including .wcm and .wcx extensions) And rumor has it, the full version of sc2 had all the wc3 models and units.
-
In-regards to sc2 game-play: I wouldn't even play sc2 if it had no map editor. The maps are what made wc3 so fun and re-playable for me. I suck at the rts aspect of the games. So without modders for sc2, sure you will still have your Ladder and Solo games, but wheres all the custom maps for those less competitive players? (Oh wait, no-body made any because its too hard )

-Not to mention that all the sc2 ladder maps and the campaign was made in *drumroll* the editor.

 

[SerraAvenger]

ITS THE FUCKING BETA! They have been TESTING IT, and they didn't even give us the FULL editor, they left numerous of things out.

And they said that the editor probably won't change anymore.

Yes, wc3 is simpler, infact its so simple it limits you.

Convention over configuration. You can get a huge deal of simplicity without the need to restrain power.

 

[punwisp]

And they said that the editor probably won't change anymore.


Convention over configuration. You can get a huge deal of simplicity without the need to restrain power.

They left multiple features out -.-

Theres a difference between changing current, and adding what wasnt added for beta..

 

[INCINERATE]

honestly i find the sc2 editor is alot simpler than the war3 one. Warcraft own was so simple it ended up being very restrictive without the use of extensive Coding to bypass its flaws.

Now with the use of validators in the data editor and being able to customize everything properly .. Once you get over the initial learning curve, i think most people would agree its actually easier to do stuff in , especially complex stuff that would have been a head scratcher in warcraft 3 to do properly.

I honestly love the editor

 

[SerraAvenger]

honestly i find the sc2 editor is alot simpler than the war3 one. Warcraft own was so simple it ended up being very restrictive without the use of extensive Coding to bypass its flaws.

You're contradicting yourself.
And I already told you: Convention over configuration. It is possible to create a good framework that can allow you to do anything and still be simple to use. Just look at RoR.
Also, extensive coding is not a bad thing per se.

Now with the use of validators in the data editor and being able to customize everything properly .. Once you get over the initial learning curve, i think most people would agree its actually easier to do stuff in , especially complex stuff that would have been a head scratcher in warcraft 3 to do properly.

The problem is that it is all in the data editor. I would appreciate it if the data editor was a mere graphical interface for initialization scripts. That is not the case. True, the segragation of data and triggering was greatly reduced with the catalog action, but there is still lots of unexplored potential.

Before, the path was clear: Go the coding way. I like coding a lot so it might be an issue of taste, but I already hated the unnecessary amount of object editoring involved in wc3 to bypass script limitations.
Objectmerger was a relief. True, it had a bad interface and was very slow, but at least it did the job. Such a tool is missing for SC2 right now.
The easiest way would've been for Blizz to include such a program theirselves. They failed to do so.

As a matter of fact, I think that the data editor causes lots of head scratching right now. Yes, it is possible to do a lot using a script enhanced data editor (using the script tools like validators and such, as you described) and I think it is a great step forward that code integration has finally happened. I also think it is a great step forward that data integration into galaxy has made first progress with the catalog type of action. Still, it is a very long way to go!

There were many forward decisions as well as many limiting decisions made in the design process of the SC2 Editor. To think of one editor being better than the other is like comparing golang to ruby. It is nonsense.

I appreciate that the editor was created in an environment where level designers work together with programmers. I see that many level designers have quite a tough time with programming, just like many programmers oppose clicking. I love to do level design, but I am more on the programmers level of design.
And that is why I say: The SC2 editor does its job. Nothing less and nothing more. It was never created for the community. It was created for blizzard.

 

[INCINERATE]

how am i contradicting myself when you are saying something like this?

"It is possible to create a good framework that can allow you to do anything and still be simple to use. Just look at RoR.
Also, extensive coding is not a bad thing per se."

To keep this post short and simple, i merely tried to make a point that, If you learn the data editor Decently, The restrictions are far less and it actually ends up being easier to do . In war3 you needed alot of coding to bypass its Numerous restrictions.

To make another example.. Whats the whole point of GUI (graphical user interface) . Too simplify Coding by presenting it in a graphical way , rather than displaying the Raw language because not everybody will be able to "pick it up" as fast . Not so?

For me personally, The data editor in sc2 simplified this even more, because it presented Complex spell making, into manageable smaller puzzle pieces...

You want a totally custom aura in sc2 ?Simple, Use ability behavior, then use a search area effect which has the effect apply behaviour, then use a custom buff or whatever effect you want the aura to do........Then your Done, A Totally custom aura made from scratch

Now imagine the comparative with this in war3... you got to use a whole host of shit like disabling spell books, checking for buffs, Adding ability/removing.. running periodic events all game wasting effiency , and creating "useless base abilities" just to get a proper trigger event for your aura.

The point is and it still stands firm. Once you get over the initial learning curve of the galaxy editor, Things to me personally are Alot easier to do. IF you disagree with that point, Then you clearly you are just looking to start a flamewar.

 

[SerraAvenger]

The point is and it still stands firm. Once you get over the initial learning curve of the galaxy editor, Things to me personally are Alot easier to do.

You mean, once YOU got over the initial learning curve, things were much easier to do for you.
However, to me, once I got over the tiny learning curve of the world editor, I could do lots of

To keep this post short and simple, i merely tried to make a point that, If you learn the data editor Decently, The restrictions are far less and it actually ends up being easier to do . In war3 you needed alot of coding to bypass its Numerous restrictions.

I don't want to repeat myself, but it seems I have to.
1. Some people might actually enjoy coding. I already understood that you don't, and that you think clicking is much more awesome and faster and easier and what know I. But to me, and a lot of other people, typing is a lot more fun.
2. The restrictions are different. Think about kildare's problems with item management. Think about 32.
3. The point you're making might be true but it is still quite short sighted. Because the "window" you're doing your clicking in is now called "Data Module", you don't understand that you're actually programming in there. 4. What I want is that the programming you do within the Data Module is visible to the "Trigger Module" and can be completely modified from there - with no exceptions. Data creation and similar should be possible using galaxy, not merely the enhancement of existing data.
5. You're still very short sighted with almost everything you say. On the one hand, you say SC2 is simpler, on the other hand you say WC3 was SO SIMPLE that it had restrictions. Not to speak of the reasoning in the latter phrase, which is false.
6. You say that "once you pass the learning curve, it's great", which means "there is a learning curve and it's quite high, which is a good thing". But then you say it's good that there's a GUI because it decreases the learning curve.
7. When you say the latter, you also forget to mention a couple of other things. First of all, you forget that coding in galaxy is much harder nowadays. Coding in galaxy exclusively is impossible. And I am currently doing lots of excessing coding in order to bypass that limitation.
8. "A Totally custom aura made from scratch". This makes it sound as if you had to do the very same stuff very often just to get a couple of auras. I don't know how you feel about repetition, but to me repetition is not creative. When I'm doing something, I want the coding to do the repetitive stuff for me. I want to be creative.
9. "Now imagine the comparative with this in war3... you got to use a whole host of shit like disabling spell books, checking for buffs, Adding ability/removing.. running periodic events all game wasting effiency , and creating "useless base abilities" just to get a proper trigger event for your aura." Again, you're being short sighted. First of all, I would go a completely different (and shorter) way. Second, you can easily externalise all of that into objectmerger + trigger system, and then you could do new auras with a one liner. And for the third time: Convention of Configuration. Since you still didn't inform yourself about the matter and are still posting shallow nonsense, I looked up the wiki article for you. It took me 7 seconds to do so, less than replying to your post.
10. "For me personally". That is fine. For you personally, everything got easier, because you were too lazy/too dumb/too uneducated to learn how to program. That's fine for me. But you're not alone on this world. There's others who did learn how to program. These people might even like programming. When they create something based on other software, they want to understand the interface as much as is required, and then start hacking (extra for you, since your are too lazy/dumb/ineducated/wki to look it up on google anyway and will probably think of cyber criminality if you read "hack"). Ofc, they don't want to waste time hacking the same stuff over and over again. They want to be efficient.

And this is what you don't see:
The difference between effectivity and efficiency.
Agreed, GE's "data module" is much more effective than that of the WE.
Agreed, GE "trigger module"'s GUI is much more effective and efficient than that of the WE.
Agreed, GE's mix of data and programming is much more effective than that of WE.

BUT Galaxy is actually worse than Zinc. (Zinc was very fine. JASS was very weak.)
BUT The GE's data editor has no convention whatsoever, while that of the WE had only convention and very little configurability. (Both are bad)
BUT There is still so much to do to make the GE enjoyable for everyone.

BUT what is even more important, blizzard will probably never spend the money to support a better GE. Why not? They don't need it themselves!

The point is and it still stands firm. (...) IF you disagree with that point, Then you clearly you are just looking to start a flamewar.

Don't make me laugh

 

[esb]

I remember when I first opened World Editor, I had no idea what I was doing, or what I could do. And this was the RoC WE mind you. Little by little, by opening other people's unprotected maps, and following tutorials, I got the hang of it.
Same will happen with this new one. People will be like "What the hell?!" then they'll be like "OOhhhh!!! Aaaaahhh!!!" in unison.

 

[SerraAvenger]

I remember when I first opened World Editor, I had no idea what I was doing, or what I could do. And this was the RoC WE mind you. Little by little, by opening other people's unprotected maps, and following tutorials, I got the hang of it.
Same will happen with this new one. People will be like "What the hell?!" then they'll be like "OOhhhh!!! Aaaaahhh!!!" in unison.

Well actually I found the WE to be rather intuitive, just like the GE. Yeah the GE required me a lot more time to learn, and I am still far away from mastering it.

The problem, though, really won't be the learning. The problem lies within the capabilities of the editor itself. I am not disappointed by the learning curve, I think it is still okay. I'm disappointed by the amount of configuration we need to do, by the amount of repetition we have to do, and by the lack of power that is still inherent to the SC2 system.

The SC2 editor is neither a step forward nor a step backwards, it is both. It is a good tool for teams to work on and develop, obviously not the best tool, but a good tool.

 

[esb]

The SC2 editor is neither a step forward nor a step backwards, it is both.

The SC2 Editor is doing the splits!
(Had to say it )

Yeah, I noticed you had to customize pretty much everything... which seemed kinda annoying and boring. But lets wait til we see the final product. Also, lets hope they add/fix and make things easier (in the GE) with the expansion releases.

 

[D.V.D]

Serra, don't say that someone is uneducated because their using the tools given to them in the editor as much as they can. Ofcourse everyone will ahve their takes on the editor and you don't have to discriminate someone saying its bad to use the data editor because it isn't coding. For you, you dislike the editor because wc3 was extremely based on coding were as this editor is not. Does that make it worse? Not really, its just a whole new different way of doing things in the editor rather than coding it all in the trigger editor. You don't have to say hes uneducated because he likes using the data editor rather than writing hundreds of lines of script just to make a few simple spells. The data editor adds a whole new list of possibilities to what you can do without making hundreds of triggers in a map just for spells. The data editor is a really great tool and you shouldn't say its bad to use it because its not scripting. It adds a whole new approach to what you can do, and im pretty sure the modding community will make a better scripting language for the needs of people like you. Oh and by the way, you can't get all the code that is used in the data editor and edit it the way you said you wanted to because it isn't done in the galaxy scripting language but C scripting language. So its actually quicker than it would be if you coded it in Galaxy scripting language.

 

[esb]

I don't think Serra meant that ...

Was just saying that to do simple things on Galaxy Editor, you need to set up and configure many little things (Not like World Editor).

 

[SerraAvenger]

I don't think Serra meant that ...

Was just saying that to do simple things on Galaxy Editor, you need to set up and configure many little things (Not like World Editor).

Thanks, esb = )
Finally someone who gets what I'm saying. You just reestablished my faith in mankind.

@DVD
I'm too lazy to quote myself over and over again. If you don't understand my post, read it again.
EDIT:
btw, you're supporting my point:

Oh and by the way, you can't get all the code that is used in the data editor and edit it the way you said you wanted to because it isn't done in the galaxy scripting language but C scripting language. So its actually quicker than it would be if you coded it in Galaxy scripting language.

That is exactly the problem!

Spoiler

(For this argumentation, I'll ignore that a) it is done in XML, not C and b) C is a system language, not a scripting language.)

 

[BANANAMAN]

Wait...Galaxy uses C++ ?

 

[Ancanus]

I don't think Serra meant that ...

Was just saying that to do simple things on Galaxy Editor, you need to set up and configure many little things (Not like World Editor).

Proper use of the inheritance (parent-child relationships) in the data editor should keep these to one-time configurations.


btw, what do you guys mean by getting "code" out of the data editor? If its beyond the Catalog, then you guys are probably looking at getting a piece of the SC2 engine.

 

[SerraAvenger]

Wait...Galaxy uses C++ ?

What?^^ No one ever spoke of Cpp in this thread oO

btw, what do you guys mean by getting "code" out of the data editor?

I never said anything of getting "code" out of the data editor, did I?
Please quote from my post so I can explain to you what I meant.