Starcraft 2 Campaign Discussion (May contain spoilers)

Jaujarahje

I have now changed this in the User CP
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Actually he changed the future.

Zeratul told him she is killed by them, and the fate of her life will lie in his hands, and he was talking about the ending, he could have let tychus kill her, but he didnt, he killed tychus, and now shes alive.

And who knows, she might still have some ties to the zerg

This is what I though, since she did keep the hair that maybe she will have some control over the zerg still, or will just have to fight to control them. The zerg need someone to lead them, and if the Xelnaga and hybrids aren't then the next expansion would just kinda be random battles and no major conflicts. Just my thoughts though
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
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" But how can Kerrigan become good again? "
" People who are forced to do bad things ... "

The Zerg do not have, nor do they need, any kind of philosophy.
They aren't good, or bad, they simply are. Which is part of what makes them so great.


" The plot might indeed turn to be a good one "

It already is. Or are you The Rumored One that foresaw this "ending"?


" Kerrigan had the guidance of the Cerebrates "

Help perhaps. She certainly wasn't waiting for them to order her around :p
 

Viikuna

No Marlo no game.
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" But how can Kerrigan become good again? "
" People who are forced to do bad things ... "

The Zerg do not have, nor do they need, any kind of philosophy.
They aren't good, or bad, they simply are. Which is part of what makes them so great.

The entire point of Kerrigan is to have someone who, unlike overmind who has never been human or knows nothing about being human, can make choises of good and evil.

Overmind simply works for the survival of his race. Its similiar to how we tend to think about animals, who simply want to survive. They are not good&evil in way humans are.

"Concepts of good and evil dont exist in evolution"



But then we have Kerrigan who is human, but an infested one. She used to be controlled by the overmind. She became evil. She killed Fenix and Duke without any mercy. She let Jimmy, Zeratul and Mengsk live, because she wants them to suffer with their guilt and stuff like that.

Or at least thats how she says. Maybe it really was mercy?

Maybe not.


The whole idea still is that Kerrigan is more than just a zerg "who is neither good nor bad". We can actually try to guess her motives and feelings. We can wonder if she does some Darth Vader thingy and becomes good in the end. This is why we have Kerrigan.
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
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" Overmind simply works for the survival of his race "

I wouldn't call that "simple".
After all, it was given some insight into the future and had the foresight to plan something against it.
Which, as we know, involved (at least somewhat) turning the Zerg over to Kerrigan's control.
Basically giving up his own existence in favor of his race.
Noble. Admirable even. Definitely not "simple" :p


" Maybe it really was mercy? "

Probably some knowledge about things to come (the Overmind had seen the future) and the basic idea of "they might still be useful".
(Yes, I'm just guessing here. But, then again, aren't we all?)


" She became evil "

No, she didn't. She became Zerg :D


Well, I assume they turned her back to (nearly) human precisely because they wanted to add back that old, known and loved [del]insanity[/del] "Humanity".
Now, indeed, she does, again, have this "good" and "evil" problem to ponder...

Only time will tell. (About one year or so)
 

Viikuna

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Admirable even. Definitely not "simple" :p


Motives of the overmind were not my point at all.
Its that unlike protoss and terrans, which are actually very human like, zerg dont have any characters with this kind of morality problems and stuff.

Thats why Kerrigan was created. She offers possibilities for much deeper drama than overmind does. Overmind surely has motives, but those cant really be used for any drama, like they did with Kerrigan in Broodwar.



No, she didn't. She became Zerg :D

Nonsense. As I said, Kerrigan was created to be different from other Zerg. They could have just written the whole story with cerebrates and overminds if they wouldnt have had a need for more human character for zerg.


The fact that Kerrigan has her own goals, which are free from the will of swarm, alone proves that shes different. You are just trying to explain everything with "she became zerg", but that clearly isnt whats alone behind her actions. She has her own plans, like humans do.
 

2-P

I will work hard tomorrow
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She became evil.

Nah, she just saw the world from another ("zergish") perspective.

People who are forced to do bad things either try to change their actions or their way of thinking about morality of their actions. Kerrigan had no chance but obey overmind who forced her to do those things. She had no choise, but to "become evil". Thats how human mind works, since it cant stand the conflict.

It kinda ruins the whole point of infestation, if in the end it wasnt really her, but just some demon in her head controlling her and making her to do all those terrible things. ( The difference between being forced to do something and being entirely mindcontrolled by some thingy )

I think that you adopt certain characteristics from the Zerg if you're getting infested.
Now take Kerrigan's human character and remove/drastically lower a few attributes like mercy and empathy (at least I got the feeling that she sucks pretty hard at guessing what's going on in other people, hey she was a Ghost and able to read Raynor's feelings/thoughts, during one of the SC2 missions she's asking herself what Raynor is going to do).


You say she "had to become evil", the question is if she ever had any inner conflict if doing all those terrible, terrible (sorry) things is bad.
If it's still Kerrigan we're talking about is another question. (I guess she's called Queen of Blades for a reason)

And if there's a way in, there's a way out. So if it's possible to infest someone to begin with, it's also possible to turn them back imho.

The fact that Kerrigan has her own goals, which are free from the will of swarm, alone proves that shes different. You are just trying to explain everything with "she became zerg", but that clearly isnt whats behind her actions. She has her own plans, like humans do.
You have to differentiate between "becoming exactly like a Zerg" and "becoming more like a Zerg"
Just because she has human traits doesn't mean that she didn't change at all during the infestation.


@kingbdogz
What does this mean? Reverting Kerrigan into human could have potentially been as bad as killing her. Duran (or Dr Narud) has been building up to this all along
But didn't he also "hire" Tychus? I believe that Duran wanted to see Kerrigan dead, she's pretty strong and all as Zerg so the easiest way to kill her is to turn her back into a human I suppose.
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
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" zerg dont have any characters with this kind of morality problems and stuff "

That's exactly my point.
The motivations of an alien are, by definition, alien.
It's OK for an alien not to go to church on Sundays.

Then again, even Blizzard seems to have problems with that concept, hence their turning her back to human (or maybe not, but we won't know until HOTS).


Kerrigan also was never free of the "will of the swarm".
She was under the control of the Overmind, just like your average Cerebrate.
Later on, she was the swarm.
And what she was doing there was not turning the Zerg into plush pets with weakling feelings, she tried to advance the Zerg as a race for domination.
The plan did not involve getting married to Raynor, have kids and live happily ever after (At least I most certainly hope so, as otherwise I'll fly to Blizzard HQ and personally kick them to Char).


" Overmind surely has motives, but those cant really be used for any drama "

Well, the Memories of the Overmind mission in the Protoss part wasn't all that bad really.
And pretty darn close to dramatic.



Why, oh why, can't people ever accept that not everything in the entire universe MUST be human-like... as if that were the only choice... :(
Ah well, I rest my case (in peace).
 

Bloodcount

Starcraft II Moderator
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The ending was soo full of crap, so a fleet that got surprized and half of it didn't even made it to the planet, did not only HOLD but PUSHED the zerg out of their own planet and in the end insinerated it ?! what the fuck

The zerg are the most numerous race right ? Then how the hell did the platform where 80% of their forces is have less then 100 mutalisks ?! and how the shit did a hand full of terran units, hell, not even ghosts manage to by-pass it and destroy them ?

And even with crippled forces the zerg, on their planet, knowing the terrain, BREEDING MOST OF THEIR ARMY THERE cloud not kill a hand-full of tired terrans ? What the fuck ?!

Oh, and a being that is more powerful then zeratul (the templar admits that kerrigan is more powerful then him) cloud not bypass a few bunkers ?

That wasn't even the entire terran fleet. If it was soo powerful (even a frontal attack and half of the army didn't even make it to the surface) why the shit was "humanity in perril" if they cloud contain the zerg.

Why did duran do nothing to prevent this ?

I mean, what IS left of the zerg now ? Char is in ruins, they have some minor infestations here and there, sure, but who hasn't ? hell, there even were protoss left in Aiur even though the overmind was nesting there.

The story, until the final missions, was very fun. The finall few missions were a big fall. I was sure that something is gonna fuck up eventually, when it didn't I just facepalmed.

PS Sorry for my harsh language, wings of liberty was an outstanding campaing and I got really disapointed from it's final.
 

roXplosive

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I found the story not interesting enough . Compared to the previous games the storyline isn't great . It has great potential still but the "feel" is different . And the other fact is that your debriefings give so much intel to you . Let's see how i perceived the original starcraft :

1. Terran Campaign starts off by you being the magistrate of Mar Sara , and before short leaves you with no choice but to ally yourself with the sons of Korhal to be able to evacuate the remaining population faced by the Zerg invasion . The rest of the campaigns have you on focus controlling sometimes Kerrigan and Raynor and carying out your vengeance against the Confederacy under Mengs'k guide . The conflict escalates and treachery is everywhere begining with the revolts on Antiga prime , contiuniung with the rescue of General Duke and going on with the usage of Psi emitters by the sons of korhal . The last campaign is the escape of Raynor from Tarsonis . The story seems so real you can feel life vibrating trough . So many schemes and politics involved makes the terran campaign just beautiful .

Now on the point of cinematics :
- Two men travelling in a dune buggy hit a zergling , they get out of car to investigate and the dialogue is just supremely retarded . Man1 : " Hey Sarge I think we hit someone's dog ." Man2 : " This ain't no dog , it's a zergling ... meaning " turns around and seesw hydralisks and more zerglings . Man1 : " I love you sarge " . :nuts:
- Ending cinematic : After all the bloodshed and manipulation the campaign ends with a propagandistic screening . I mean if it weren't a game and i wasn't from a former dictatorial country it would have gotten me . Masterfully done Blizzard .

2. Zerg Campaign answers the questions regarding why zerg are attracted to Ghost psionic signatures : the overmins was looking for an intelligent life form except protoss with powerful psionic abilities that has free will and the ability to control zerg . Why it is unknown for now and the campaign carries on mostly based on protecting kerrigan and later invading Aiur with the whole swarm . Then there arise some questions : Why does the overmind need a piece of Kadarin crystal mined from a freakingly huge hill of this matter ? Why does he go himself to Aiur because we all know he could as well command his swarms from the other end of the galaxy ? And what does he mean after you get the Kadarin crystal in position and the overmind lands there : "Now my children we are complete !" :eek:

3. The protoss campaign is nicely made as well , encompassing a population holding to dying values that tend to drag them into the grave as well . The bad point is that most campaigns you fight off protoss and just leaves a sour taste but the composition of the protoss forces containing the strongest units in game makes for some interesting play . Memorable moments in game (most of all dialogues this made my day ) in the last campaign : "Judicator appears on screen : " We have been mistaken my bretheren . Now we see you are in fact heroes and all our hopes are with you " or something on the lines . Jim Raynor appears on screen : " Does that mean they are sending backup ? " :thup:

And then the anticlimatic end with the death of the Overmind . I know it is a glorious moment for the starcraft universe but i was still wondering why did he die and expected the overmind to revive in the second series because the Zerg are now complete right ?

From the second series i expected to see :
- the protoss getting a secure location to preserve their culture OK GJ blizzard but not anything more ? Nope
- The terran to receive some word from the original inhabitants of Earth and fight them . UED campaign checked . I expected the humans from Earth to be 200 years ahead in tech - that has let me down . The UED captures the newly formes overmind . That was astounding and one of the the campaigns i most liked in the game with the Battlecruiser theft :rolleyes:
- The zerg left me no real expectation but I agree the ending was a bit overblown . I mead the original zerg swarm should be able to clean the entire sector no sweat but after fighting the swarm of the new overming it shouldn't have much more left that the protoss and 2 terran factions can't handle :D The saving moment of this game that didn't add as much awesomness asthe prequel was the introduction of Hybrids that set the imagination ablaze .

Comparing to the previous you :
- do not overthrow a government
- do not kill/enslave an overmind
- do not get the supremacy of the sector
- why do you not meet up yourself ? I mean you should be able to find the former magistrate of Mar Sara scheming something against the new corrupt government of the terrans
- why is Raynor black haired because iirc he used to be blond
- why did they change kerrrigan's hairstyle ? I liked the porcupine needles better
- from how we see Zeratul in the previous games he seems to have 3 huge scars on his face and overall be looked more battle hardened and determined . Now it would seem the new Zeratul is a 20 year old going sightseeing trough the galaxy
- how do the banshees fly on space ?
- why do Thors have such big frame and low armor ? I think there are muuuuuch better units out there besides this piece of junk that blizzard created
- are the protoss retarded ? I mean yeah why would they build collosus ? I do not argue the unit's effectiveness but i do not see why wxactly does it have to be a walker ? We have seen them propell mothersips inj the sky right ? And besides i liked the old reavers more . The Reavers and carriers have fiven the protoss a good feel in the past . I think they souldn't have so many ground biological units but more mechanical ones that are affordable . Why do dark templars merge into a regular archon ?
- the spells om the startcraft 1 game were better imho . I miss EMP shockwave , Irradiate , Defensive matrix , Lockdown , the queen's Ensnare , parasite , spawn Broodling , and even disruption web fits the list among many others . That was good stuff
- the fact the spell commands are issued to 1 unit a t a time is all nice and good but i Wish they enabled issuing a spell command to the whole group also . I mean why would you not be able to order a group of ghosts an order to snipe the same target all . Say you get 4 ghosts and want to snipe a zealot ... you have to issue snipe command 4 times :thdown:
- seem to have godmode on since a small terran force shouldn't be able to take a hold on Char in the primary hive cluster and fight off all the zerg reinforcements from all over

Stupid question : how do you enable the secret starcraft 2 mission ? I have seen some stuff that i failed to accomplish before because I was mainly aiming at achieving the primary objectives (stealing Odin : Where is Loki ? ; the transmission : what secret is there ? the map is practically revealed but I didn't find any secrets )
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
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" how do you enable the secret starcraft 2 mission?"

"Media Blizz" mission.
Just below the right base is a path to the right (that part of town is hidden in the "dark").
Destroy the science facility there, grap the documents it drops, finish the mission and talk to Mat on the bridge.

Note: if you've already been on Char, it's too late. Start a new campaign :p
 

roXplosive

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Edit : editing fail . Guess i'll complete this new post instead

Things i do not quite agree :
- The last protoss campaign is too depressing . It would have been better as a cinematic
- The best way to clear the infestation is using reapers and not helions when you receive helion tech
- On hard obtaining Terrazine with goliaths is a hell as opposed by doing it with vikings upgraded with the addons from Swann
- is it me or on hard the most difficult mission is retreiving the decoded adjutatnt ? I had to use siege tanks and specters to get it done ... and when i think you get Vultures for it
- And a last thing : I think there should have been more commando style missions . Only the first and Ghost of a Chance iirc . However there were variations of it or establish a foothold but then you build a base and start to pew pew . I remember the commando missions in SC2 BW terran faction (2'nd mission i guess) where you needed a little micro to get the job done
 

Viikuna

No Marlo no game.
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Why, oh why, can't people ever accept that not everything in the entire universe MUST be human-like... as if that were the only choice... :(

Im not talking about everything. Im talking about Kerrigan. Ive typed my arguments here for you to see. You, on the other hand, dont have any arguments at all.
 

Joccaren

You can change this now in User CP.
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- is it me or on hard the most difficult mission is retreiving the decoded adjutatnt ? I had to use siege tanks and specters to get it done ... and when i think you get Vultures for it

Not the hardest, but yeah the vultures were almost useless. I just made an army of around 80 marines and 20 medics teched from Swann. It was the easiest battle ever once I had them.
 

punwisp

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That mission was pretty easy... Actually all the missions on normal were blantly easy, the final mission though was a bitch xD, i couldnt beat that on normal. So I did on easy.

And btw you can't play the secret mission if you already went to char. Which sucks
 

Monovertex

Formerly Smith_S9
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I've beat all the missions on normal, I think they were pretty easy. I think I can finish all of them on hard, maybe with a few tries on the last one. As of Brutal... well, it's Brutal xD.
 

punwisp

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All in was the only one I couldnt beat on normal, it was actually pretty hard. Casual was easy, but then I mainly used battleships main purpose being to kill kerrigan.
 

Joccaren

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I found that in all in, I had chosen to take out the Muta's and Broodlords so I just spammed Tanks, Marines, Medics, Perdition Turrets and Banshees. All in was pretty easy when I did that, however this time I might take out the worms and spam thors, tanks and bcs instead.
 

Exide

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I liked the campaign, it was very entertaining.
I had high hopes for the campaign and it didn't let me down. :thup:
I agree that the ending was quite horrible, though.
I was very disappointed to see Kerrigan turned back to human. :(


I found that in all in, I had chosen to take out the Muta's and Broodlords so I just spammed Tanks, Marines, Medics, Perdition Turrets and Banshees. All in was pretty easy when I did that, however this time I might take out the worms and spam thors, tanks and bcs instead.

I thought Thors had pretty bad anti-air abilities? -They look like they could pack a punch, but I think they said during the campaign that Odin was bad vs air. (Since Odin is a better version of Thor I assume that Thors are bad vs air, too.)
I would suggest Goliaths instead of Thors.
I might be wrong, though. I'm actually pretty bad at regular SC2. :p
 
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