Style Vs Cheese

Bloodcount

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>sentries and stalkers.

Ghosts, Ravens, high templars, infestors, hellions, collosii, DT's, Warp prisms, Void rays... there are a lot more :D


>I love in TvT when both terran proxy rax and it ends up being who can escape with more SCVs lol.

Proxy never really worked out for me... although I have seen a game or two like the one you said and they are pretty hillarious.
 

Oninuva

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Haha basically what happens is one person decides to proxy, the other player scouts no rax in their opponents base and throws down their rax in their opponents area. Then it's just whoever gets a bunker placed without the SCV being killed or who lifts off and escapes with more probes / base trade. Haha.
 

Bloodcount

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In that case I have never actually seen this :D I soo wanna try it out (to see weather I can pull a win or not :D )
 

Gwypaas

hook DoNothing MakeGUIUsersCrash
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I think cheese should stay because it forces you to scout and it will punish you if you don't scout and go a too greedy build, but it is a All-in so a failed cheese will almost always be the game unless you suck really damn hard and still loses. Like other people said, it adds another dimension and it makes so SC2 doesn't become a city builder game where 200/200 armies clashes together and someone eventually wins.
 

celerisk

When Zerg floweth, life is good
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Well as Terran you really can't cheese.. :(

Proxy Barracks, Bunker rush, ... works "just fine" (depending on your point of view).


Recent high-level example:
GSL Ro32, match 16, TLO vs Hyperdub (or, as he is known now: Cheesedup or Hyperdumb)
 

Bloodcount

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>Proxy Barracks, Bunker rush, ... works "just fine" (depending on your point of view).

5-6 rax, what was the other.... 8 reapers i think ? add those and you have teh ulltimate cheese list.
 

Bloodcount

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>TLO vs Hyperdub (or, as he is known now: Cheesedup or Hyperdumb)

MeH. Even though imo TLO deserved to win these series (most epic TvT matches ever) He did the exact same build to Dimaga like a week earlier AND it was for a tournament as well... so, yeah... why are people mad at what's his face for cheesing TLO when TLO cheesed Dimaga ? If what's his face is indeed a cheeser and deserves to be picked ot, shouldn't TLO get the same fate ?

Just sayin'
 

celerisk

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" Just sayin' "

Generally speaking, I'd totally agree with that. It's a tournament. Anything (within the rules of the game of course) that gets you a win goes.
Here though... we're talking about TLO, The Little One, The Liquid One, TLOwnage, the one and only, him! ... and he lost to Cheesedumb :(
 

Bloodcount

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Since you put it like that.... I just have to agree :) So yeah what's his face is a cheeser :mad:
 

Oninuva

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>Proxy Barracks, Bunker rush, ... works "just fine" (depending on your point of view).

5-6 rax, what was the other.... 8 reapers i think ? add those and you have teh ulltimate cheese list.

5 rax reaper.. but it's considerably less effective with the 5 second increase on reaper build time. And it's also only effective v.s. Zerg that Fast Expands.

Proxy Rax & Bunker Rush is not as effective as well, easily defended and prevented. The bunker takes 5 seconds longer to build now which is not a huge deal but in a proxy rush it is.

The reason why gateway proxy is so deadly is because zealots are just so much harder to kill and can do so much more damage to your economy than a marine can.

Besides, if you let someone build a bunker by your mineral line you already GG lol.
 

GardenofWar

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Higher Tier Tank < Lower Tier Troops = wtfbbqwithcheese

I read over half of the comments here but do not have time to read all of them. I don't mean to repeat, if I do, consider it affirmation. Anyhow I have some pretty strong opinions on this because to me, gameplay is so central to the gaming experience. And although you can't stop cheesing, there is a whole lot that Blizzard could do to direct people away from cheese styles. I have been astounded at the direction that they are taking however with their more recent balance changes. For example, I absolutely hate how they continue to empower the tier one units while nerfing the higher tech units like siege tanks and Ultralisk. One of the things that I loved about the balance of WCIII was that it balanced the gameplay out so much more gracefully. Tier one units just will not stand up in a throw against tier 3 units in that game. SCII is not this way and almost seems to reward cheese over style. There is a lot they could do to change this and I do not understand some of the choices they have made. I know I am repeating myself and I realize this is because I am actually trying to refrain from generating a whole text on this subject as it really is that deep and I have given it a lot of thought. I don't think you should be able to build one or two types of units and cheese to victory for the most part. The units should just not stack up against each other in this way. The Marauder for instance. How does that little fucker in that suite have almost as much hp as a tank? Why have they so drastically nerfed the tanks to do 15 damage? 15 fucking damage? If you got hit by a shell from a tank designed in an age where we have warp drives and can traverse the depths of space, I think it would ripe a little biological unit like a Zergling or even any type of ground troop to shreds. Are they that worried about turtling? It's one of the easiest counters in the game, especially if it's terrain using tanks. Tanks are slow and if you see your opponent doing this just take the time to expand and outproduce him. If he fortifies and is looking to build up, he has made his intentions rather clear. Sure it is more complicated than this, some players bluff, etc, but in means of gameplay, nerfing this higher teched unit, a unit that also requires some micro and thought over tier one units doesn't make sense. Anyhow I could go on, but I just wanted to see if anyone else found this as frustrating as I do?
 

Narks

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The problem with siege tanks is that now thanks to their new AI which prevents overkill, combined with the tendency of units to "ball up", means once you get a nice amount of tanks in siege mode, no ground unit can get anywhere near them.
 

GardenofWar

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The problem with siege tanks is that now thanks to their new AI which prevents overkill, combined with the tendency of units to "ball up", means once you get a nice amount of tanks in siege mode, no ground unit can get anywhere near them.

If you advance on a formidable formation of siege tanks without having the appropriate counters then you deserve to lose. And there are so many counters to tanks, including ones on the ground. You can hit them from the air, stalkers can blink in, marauders can overpower easily, especially with Medivac support or just en mass, Ultralisk are also an appropriate counter. Any well rounded army should be able to counter tanks easily or play it smart and just hit from elsewhere. Tanks cannot quickly be mobilized to react or firefight. I have powered through well fortified areas of siege tanks with Thors even, sure they are more money, but their damage and hp is so much higher as well as having the Barrage ability. And IMO tanks should do exactly what you mention. They SHOULD be able to rape any massing of lower tiered ground units. I believe this creates a more realistic game play experience. If some of you are familiar with design interface and activity or have read Don Norman's work, this is what the user would expect from looking at a tank. Just like I would expect when looking at a Battle Cruiser that it would be able to rape the tank on the ground. IMO Blizzard is creating a game that is counter intuitive in some areas of their gameplay and balance. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and appreciate many elements of it. I praise the Editor, even though I know there may be some upsets here, I just wish they would correct some simple balance issues. Nerfing these units seems a choice to improve conditions for the less experienced users rather than create conditions for optimal balance and game play. How many times should it take someone to realize you're gonna get nowhere with tactics like this against tanks till you learn to adapt? Anyhow, this is just my ten cents and is probably one of my bigger frustrations with the game.
 

GardenofWar

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So you are a terran player ?

I prefer random, strong terran yes, but I dislike the playing style of most other terran's; MMM, lower tier massing, etc. I like to play style, but will also cheese occasionally to mix it up. It also helps me remember exactly how much time you have with each of the various strategies and what goes into them because although lackluster they are ever so deadly. Each race has something about them that gives them an advantage. Though if it's too much cheese or lacks style I will usually refrain. Why do you ask? I am usually top 20 plat with a lil under 60% wins. I could probably increase this if I didn't play style so much, but I am too proud for it. At least I'm not too proud to admit it, he hee :p Anyways I really enjoy all the elements of the game and how they come together not just one or two strategies or one or two unit combinations. I honestly think someone at Blizzard has a hard-on for Marauders though. Think of it in WCIII terms; it's like having a Dryad on steroids pumped up like a grunt, low food cost, high damage and hp, slowing attack. However they are even better because you only need a tech lab to start massing them. And with Terran's insane heal = would you like cheese with that? Anyways I am almost getting sick of hearing myself bitch about it, lol, so sorry for continued rant. Yes, I like terran, but I'm not limited to playing them. Random will probably always be my favorite. I enjoy being able to command all the races; wish you could play two or all of them at once. In beta I was number 1 plat for some time with random, but I think I liked the gameplay much better back then, just saying. I don't know if they had Diamond in beta then? Would be nice to know.
 

Sevion

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I just got my first taste of cheese in 2v2 with my newb friend (he just got SC2 last night) and we were placing. I couldn't go the 5 matches without cheese. Whether it was void rays, 6 pool + baneling or what-have-you.

Needless to say, I quit on the 3rd game hoping that the next day would yield better players.
 

celerisk

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" I don't know if they had Diamond in beta then? "

Patch 13 (of 17, so somewhat close to the end) removed "Copper" and added "Diamond" above "Platinum".
 

GardenofWar

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" I don't know if they had Diamond in beta then? "

Patch 13 (of 17, so somewhat close to the end) removed "Copper" and added "Diamond" above "Platinum".

Ah yeah I was gonna say I didn't think they did when I was playing, I had stop playing towards the end before my schooling started up in order to get in the right frame of mind. I couldn't help to get the game when it released though still I don't know that this was wise...I'm too addicted. Anyhow thanks for letting me know.
 

ifbbprodigy

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It's called scouting...

If you scout, you'll know if your opponent is ling rushing.

Also, if your opponent starts making a pylon/bunker/etc. in your base, then you should start attacking it with workers and/or hurry up and get a military structure.
 
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