The Evil... Is coming...

DM Cross

You want to see a magic trick?
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566
Getting Back to Business

Well, the summer was one hell of a time, people :p Personal issues all around, from adding another girl to my list of Ex's, to going to D.C. to get screwed over at a contest of poetry, to family issues with drugs, I was all over the place, having trouble doing any work on this to the point where I just had to put it off :(

But now, we're getting BACK TO BUSINESS, BABY! :D (ALWAYS wanted to say that! :p) Within the next couple of days, I shall get back to work on the Evil's terrain, and soon you'll be getting weekly updates of work being done! (We hope :)) Feel free to start suggesting ideas again if you'd be so kind, because we're going to need them.

The Evil's still coming! :D
 

zaqer50

TH.net Regular
Reaction score
3
"Well it's about bloody time!" Sweet! Can't wait for for Screenshots! Although Alexander wasnt working on it, We at www.Omega-mods.com(Edit: link wasnt working) Were still discussing map ideas. Come on over and join OM thats where most of TEIC is happening! Good site, good peeps, good maps!

But anyways, great to see yah back in action Alexander! :D
 

DM Cross

You want to see a magic trick?
Reaction score
566
I've retired from Mapping, and decided to stop progress on this project.

As far as "by my hands", this map will never see the light of day. My life is filled with things way more important then this game, nowadays, and I just don't have the time.

And if I had the time, I wouldn't have the motivation. WE isn't very exciting anymore.
 

AgentPaper

From the depths, I come.
Reaction score
107
*Kicks Master_Butt*

That was fun.

Wait you said kiss?
 

U are a noob

Mega Super Ultra Cool Member
Reaction score
152
Alexander said:
I've retired from Mapping, and decided to stop progress on this project.

As far as "by my hands", this map will never see the light of day. My life is filled with things way more important then this game, nowadays, and I just don't have the time.

And if I had the time, I wouldn't have the motivation. WE isn't very exciting anymore.
thats sad but hopefully you will return to us as a offiacal programmer makeing money
 

Jindo

Self
Reaction score
460
I thought he finished it or just stopped workin on it..

You really shouldn't bump old threads.. even if we did go back in time :p.

~Jindo
 
K

KeeperofKeys

Guest
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Ok, back on topic. Alexander, I love the concept. LOVE it. <3
For a little bit of input, here are some things that I think should be included in a worthy successor to DD:

Tension: Makes the game quite fun. It gets utterly ruined when a player is faced with overwhelming odds or an annoying enemy. Don't let it die, like the situations in DD with the thrice d--ned Cultist and Reaper heroes.

Replayability/variety of experience: Different evils should take different solutions. This may seem obvious, but the more creative you are in making the evils distinct, the more fun the map will be. There should be no "One size fits all" evil killer!

Intelligence stressed: The more emphasis your game places on scouting, the more interesting it will be. Rather than sitting at home and amassing a huge army while ignoring cries for help from an attacked player (another weakness of DD), you should be actively participating. Quests are a good way to do this! Be sure to make them rewarding enough to merit the time spent on them.

Good pacing: Sitting around waiting for crops to grow so you can get five gold when your units cost hundreds is not fun! Neither is racing out into the country, building a huge army in five minutes, and then ramming that army into other players' armies. There is a middle way here, and be sure to walk it.

Balance: You have already stated that you intend to playtest the living... daylights... out of this map. GOOD, GOOD! Nothing in DD is as frustrating, annoying, or infuriating as that thrice d--ned menace, THE LOUSY IMBA HIGH CULTIST! My point, minus the rant, is a game is no game without the opportunity for everyone to win at the same time.

Polish: One of DD's major strengths is its high level of polish, which makes it smooth, easy to play, and easy to like. Typos, missing tooltips, and a poorly constructed system are hindrances that can sink a game. Small nuisances, but enough small rocks can still be an avalanche.

Finally, some suggestions for other aspects of this lovely lovely map:

Question: How will the evil player disguise himself effectively in Merra when he is using his corruption ability? What prevents the players from parking scouts there to catch any player walking around town, looking suspicious? Will the other players have real reasons to return to Merra that early, or will the evil have to rely on stealth?

Note: I assume that since you like to play DD with close friends you also intend to mainly host this map for them. But, I would like to request that your provide sufficient in-game information to learn how to play in one sitting. It makes dealing with noobs easier, since you can refer them to the information. It also helps when you ARE the noob, since not everyone on Bnet is kind enough to explain how the game works to an obvious noob.

Concern: Perhaps you could find a different name for the "Wiccan" branch of tech/path/upgrades? I personally think that it sounds rather cheesy (no offense, but it sounds like you were short on ideas), and some actual Wiccans might not like having their religion included in this game, regardless of how you treat it. You may not care (I don't have a clue), but I prefer to avoid potential offenses unless I have a point to make.

Praise: Hooray for interesting evils! Some classics are a must (Dracula is one), but it's good to have more exotic evils too. The Headless Horseman is a step in the right direction!

Ideas: And finally, the goods: what you actually WANT to read in my post.
Abilities:
Purify: (Good) Worshiper type skill, removes a certain level of corruption from target unit. This would be helpful against "Monster Master" evils, like Dr. Frankenstein.
Demonic Pact: (Evil) Sacrifice health for mana, allowing faster usage of nasty skills.
Conscience: (Good) Worshiper skill, makes the target look at its past and think about what it has done. Has a chance to stun an evil (pondering their deeds), or a chance to make it go berserk (faster attack, move, health regen, ect.) Use as an early game skill to potentially pin down a monster, but perhaps enhance it too...
Buildings:
Traps: always good for a laugh, if nothing else. The different sides could have access to different traps, like slow and web. These would be cheap, but weak, early game defenses.
Underground Shelter: (Good) Invisible building that can load units. Expensive, but can prevent an evil from killing off all of your precious early game workers. (Another DD gripe: getting targeted by the evil, my industries destroyed, and in the late game the evil marches up to my poor base with a huge army.)
Cathedral: Late game good building, with a health-degeneration aura that affects enemies (consacrated). Also allows the production of holy units.
Scarecrow: Early game building that improves farming in a set radius. Potentially a minor ward against evil.
Units:
Decoy: A unit with a couple disguises to choose from, you would be able to use this to get an evil off your back.
Broodlings: (Evil) Vile little monsters that would gain mana when attacking casters. They start with zero mana, and when they reach their maximum amount they can cast their transformation spell to become something deadlier.
Digester: (Evil) An oozing mass of slimy tentacles, this late game mutant creature would have a powerful devour ability and splash damage. Perhaps it would gain health from units eaten?
Lumberjack: Early game wood chopper with a relatively powerful attack. Suspicious players could use this as an early game rusher to lynch a suspected adventurer quickly. It would place emphasis on the evil remaining hidden.
Ghost Hound: (Evil hero option) This pack-leader from the Underworld is intent on making the material plane its new home. Transform only when there is no light, for sunlight destroys this evil as it melts mist. Summon your pack from the depths of Hell, and course through the night, spreading death and terror. This evil would rely on speed and powerful attacks to accomplish its mission. If it can islolate an Adventurer from supporting buildings and hiding places, then he is as good as dead. You can hide but you can't run from this evil.
Arachnoid: (Evil hero option) This gargantuan spider-mutant has one goal: survival. This fragile evil relies on laying clutches of eggs and infecting enemies with parasitic children to conquer from within. Infect a number of enemy units, then activate an ability to bring your children ripping out of them all at once! Then set your unleashed minions on the remainder of the enemy and crush all other life! This evil would rely on stealth and patience to enfeeble the humans to the point where they are ripe for conquest.
Items:
Torch: Provides more vision at night, and can be thrown in a one time attack to damage and stun an enemy.
Razor nets: Damage and hold an enemy in place. Effective for hunting down stealthy or quick evils.
Rod of Compulsion: Charm a weak-minded enemy unit into your service. Useful only against enemies with human-like minds.
Quest:
Vile sickness: The local animals seem to have become ill with some strange disease. Find out exactly what is going on.
Good outcome: You bring a local priest to the animals. He concocts a cure and makes extra for you. You receive a cleansing solution, an item with an effect similar to the ability "purify", as mentioned above.
Evil outcome: You learn to control the finest aspects of the disease by killing diseased animals. You now have at your control an army of twisted, terrible woodland creatures, ready to help with any slaughter.

There's my not-so-humble opinion. I hope it helps. I can't wait to see this map, and if you need testers you can count me in. Keep up the good work! :D
 

Jindo

Self
Reaction score
460
...

Way to revive a thread... he said clearly that he'd retired mapping, and quit the project..

The Evil Isn't Coming, so there's no point in commenting.

---

Let the thread die now :).

~Jindo
 
K

KeeperofKeys

Guest
Gah... sorry about the mix-up there. At the end I took to just skimming the thread to get to the end so I could post. My mistake. :banghead:

Alexander, if you ever feel the urge to finish the map, know that a bunch of us will be ready and waiting to help.

*sigh*... Another good game dies in the womb... /cry.

:(

-Quote of the Day:
"I think that last vendor shortchanged me!"
-A Gnome, World of Warcraft
 

DM Cross

You want to see a magic trick?
Reaction score
566
Actually, I've restarted this project :) I just hadn't gone public with that until right now... I may start a new thread soon, and close this one, just to get a fresh start. Either way, yeah, the Evil's back, kids :cool:

~~~~Edit~~~~​

Tension: Makes the game quite fun. It gets utterly ruined when a player is faced with overwhelming odds or an annoying enemy. Don't let it die, like the situations in DD with the thrice d--ned Cultist and Reaper heroes.

Trust me, all of the evils will have weakness. For the Werewolves and Vampires, I’m using the traditional versions, just because they come equipped with an array of good and bad things with them. Not to mention that I like the classics!

Replayability/variety of experience: Different evils should take different solutions. This may seem obvious, but the more creative you are in making the evils distinct, the more fun the map will be. There should be no "One size fits all" evil killer!

If by “one size fits all” evil killers you mean having a mercenary hero called “Alexander the left hand of God” who comes equipped with holy water, silver stakes, crosses and basically a weapon for every evil hero, then don’t worry. I’m actually thinking of not having mercenary heroes at all. I’ll have to think about it more, but I may want only one hero, your main character (Your starting farmer)

I actually want to stress that hero more in this game. That is the beginning of the game and the end.

Intelligence stressed: The more emphasis your game places on scouting, the more interesting it will be. Rather than sitting at home and amassing a huge army while ignoring cries for help from an attacked player (another weakness of DD), you should be actively participating. Quests are a good way to do this! Be sure to make them rewarding enough to merit the time spent on them.

Like I said right above, I don’t plan on having a lot of mercenary heroes, or even heroes in general past what your Farmer develops into. Thus, you need to get things to fight your specific evil dudes from somewhere, right? And Merra isn’t like a one-stop shopping market for “how to expel the devil from your town”. So you can’t just buy these things. Ya gotta complete quests for them. Certain quests for certain evils.

Also, I think it’s a great idea that you can wage war against your fellow farmers… That’s just one aspect of the game: Suspicion and betrayal. Fun! :D However, I also want everyone to have a fighting chance, which is why the Evil isn’t allowed to use it’s hero in the beginning. If someone is foolish enough to mass up units and attack without their hero, well…

So be it :) Just means a short game, probably.

Good pacing: Sitting around waiting for crops to grow so you can get five gold when your units cost hundreds is not fun! Neither is racing out into the country, building a huge army in five minutes, and then ramming that army into other players' armies. There is a middle way here, and be sure to walk it.

I’m going to try to make the cost of gold and lumber more sensible. Units should cost more gold and less lumber. Structures should cost a lot of both. Hopefully with units not stealing all of your lumber, you can trade in some of your excess lumber to Merra, which doesn’t have a good lumber producer. Thus, it should even out nicely… I hope.

Balance: You have already stated that you intend to playtest the living... daylights... out of this map. GOOD, GOOD! Nothing in DD is as frustrating, annoying, or infuriating as that thrice d--ned menace, THE LOUSY IMBA HIGH CULTIST! My point, minus the rant, is a game is no game without the opportunity for everyone to win at the same time.

Polish: One of DD's major strengths is its high level of polish, which makes it smooth, easy to play, and easy to like. Typos, missing tooltips, and a poorly constructed system are hindrances that can sink a game. Small nuisances, but enough small rocks can still be an avalanche.

Yeah, I’m sure we’ll get all this stuff done in beta testing :) Which I intend to do for some months after I “finish” the game… Which will take me some months to begin with.

Question: How will the evil player disguise himself effectively in Merra when he is using his corruption ability? What prevents the players from parking scouts there to catch any player walking around town, looking suspicious? Will the other players have real reasons to return to Merra that early, or will the evil have to rely on stealth?

The evil players have to be smart. I don’t want anything in this game to be that easy (while still being easy enough to do) I want them to realize that they need to be careful, clever and crafty at all times, or they’re going to be found out and butchered. Thus, people are free to leave non-combat units in Merra as a means of spying for the evil.

I want to leave a lot of possibilities open :)

Note: I assume that since you like to play DD with close friends you also intend to mainly host this map for them. But, I would like to request that your provide sufficient in-game information to learn how to play in one sitting. It makes dealing with noobs easier, since you can refer them to the information. It also helps when you ARE the noob, since not everyone on Bnet is kind enough to explain how the game works to an obvious noob.

Almost every time I create a map (which I’ve worked on a few of them without completing, mind you…) I turn the Quest Menu into Information and ramble on and on about game details. Plus in DD, there was an in-game “tutorial” almost of how to get started and stuff. I might do that. We’ll see.

Concern: Perhaps you could find a different name for the "Wiccan" branch of tech/path/upgrades? I personally think that it sounds rather cheesy (no offense, but it sounds like you were short on ideas), and some actual Wiccans might not like having their religion included in this game, regardless of how you treat it. You may not care (I don't have a clue), but I prefer to avoid potential offenses unless I have a point to make.

*Shrug* If anyone’s going to get offended over the word Wiccan being used in a WC map, I think that’s sad :) I previously WAS a Wiccan when I started this map, I believe. I don’t think it’ll be a big deal. It’s just a game ;)

I have re-worked some things, though, since I first started this thread sometime last year, I believe.

~~~~~​

As for your ideas, I skimmed through them and I liked some and I didn’t like others :) I just recently started re-working this. Recently being within the past week. So I’m not doing too much with the object/trigger editor. I’m still doing basic terraining.

I’ll let ya know if I use anything of yours, and you’ll definitely be credited. Thanks for the reply and the praise ;)
 

NoxMortus

All Along the Watchtower
Reaction score
104
Seth said:
AI’m going to try to make the cost of gold and lumber more sensible. Units should cost more gold and less lumber. Structures should cost a lot of both. Hopefully with units not stealing all of your lumber, you can trade in some of your excess lumber to Merra, which doesn’t have a good lumber producer. Thus, it should even out nicely… I hope.

Maybe it'd be more sensible for the player to hire soldiers/workers? i.e a worker/peasant wouldn't cost very much, say 3 gold to begin with, and every 3 days or so, you have to pay his wages of 2 gold or something, and soldiers would cost more, like 5 + 3.
 

DM Cross

You want to see a magic trick?
Reaction score
566
It's a possibility that I'll have hireable units, but I prefer most of the players' army to come from the farmer's kids. And that's only because that way, it will hopefully seem less like an empire fighting the evil. It's a solitary effort, after all :)
 
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