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Accname

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I dont know, i dont need to.
We do not talk about reality but about theory here. How would you know they did murder somebody in the first place? You dont.
And thats why i dont need to know whether they seek true forgiveness or will murder again.

And you will end their lives if you throw them into a prison for the rest of their lives. What is such a life worth? Its just as bad as being dead, maybe even worse, i dont know.
When you put somebody in prison for ever, you are just as bad as they are from my point of view.
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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:rolleyes: Realise all murders "they suffer" And put all the victims of their family to the prison.
 

Accname

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:rolleyes: Realise all murders "they suffer" And put all the victims of their family to the prison.
I am sorry but i dont really understand this sentence, could you maybe try to paraphrase it so that a non-native speaker can understand?
 

tom_mai78101

The Helper Connoisseur / Ex-MineCraft Host
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I am sorry but i dont really understand this sentence, could you maybe try to paraphrase it so that a non-native speaker can understand?

Don't worry, even I can't understand that.
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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I am sorry but i dont really understand this sentence, could you maybe try to paraphrase it so that a non-native speaker can understand?
You pity the murders more than the victims family? So Again Realise the murder and put all the family in the prison instead. All be fine.

Seriously. How is it fair to the "families" that they should be allowed to be placed back into society like nothing ever happened eh? Why are they able to walk around and enjoy life while the person they murdered can't?
It's kinda fucked up isn't it?
 

Ninva

Анна Ахматова
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I feel the whole idea that a criminal must "suffer" for his/her crime is a very dogmatic and disgusting idea. It's also a destructive idea. If I were a victim, I would want to see the person who brought me or my family harm become a productive individual of society -- either that be an indentured servant on an island where there is a sense of anarchy. I feel like losing your freedom to travel to have much voice, to being charged with a felony is a deep, deep punishment in itself, especially today when there is no privacy. An ex-felon in a certain time could recreate him/herself after prison, but not today, when records are so readily accessible (and rightfully so). And if a person can change him/herself, I think it would be in an institution like that one Norway.
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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Maybe, we should honor the Murderers, by maybe sending them "gifts" or writing them letters to say how good they are doing.
 

Accname

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You pity the murders more than the victims family? So Again Realise the murder and put all the family in the prison instead. All be fine.

Seriously. How is it fair to the "families" that they should be allowed to be placed back into society like nothing ever happened eh? Why are they able to walk around and enjoy life while the person they murdered can't?
It's kinda fucked up isn't it?
Could you maybe use quotes from my text to point out to me where exactly you are getting those information out of?

I said, that people, even after commiting a crime like murder, are still people.
And they should still be treaten like human beings: with respect.
If you just lock them up in a prison for the rest of their life because they made a mistake at some point, you are basically taking their life away from them just as well.
You take a life for a life, and in the end, you are a murder just as well if you do so.

On the other hand, criminals are not monsters. They might have made a mistake, but they can change.
Just imagine how incredibly easy it is to kill a human being. We are so fragile, i could probably crush you with my hands.
What if i am drunk, or under the effects of drugs, incredibly angry or maybe mentally ill. It could very well happen that i might murder somebody in such a state. A terrible thing to do. And i might very well regret what i have done.
I might want to get a second chance. Even though i couldnt undo my wrongs i could still do my best to help others and improve this world.

You just want to take every last chance of them and have them removed. Thats pretty unfair.
Especially since in reality we can never know if somebody really is a murderer or if it just looks like he is.
And then you would be punishing somebody with such a cruel sentence although he might be innocent after all. You can never know if you are neither the murderer or the victim.
 

Fatmankev

Chef, Writer, and Midnight Toker
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I'd really suggest anyone read the full article, it's actually pretty inspiring. I'm totally in support of a facility like this in conjunction with more conventional prison systems.

It keeps being said that the idea is to rehabilitate them, which is cool; it seems like the humane thing to do. But the fact of the conventional prisons helping to fulfill this goal is being presented as a falsity (<-- poorly worded, my bad). A vast majority of the prisoners' time is spent in their cells, with nothing to do but sit and think. In a place with distractions, reflecting on your past actions is not so much a necessity. In prison, you're gonna run out of things to think about, and you'll have to move on to that. You'll have nothing else to think about, 'sides maybe fearing the start of the next day, and you're bound to address those issues and find out more about yourself.

This is a place that helps to offer second chances, to give people an opportunity at a new life. But, like many things in life, it should be a privilege and not a right. Many of the worst criminals in the prison system possess antisocial personality disorder, or in laymen's terms, they're sociopaths. This means they lack any sense of remorse beyond that of feeling remorse for their own actions that put them into a bad situation. They will never feel sorry for the crimes they committed except that they've been imprisoned for them. The risks associated with individuals with certain mental illnesses being released back into standard society are hard to really weigh - without feeling remorse for his actions, and given that they took those actions in the first place, there's a substantial chance that they'd re-offend, but more discreetly. On the other hand, can you really hold a 'What if?' against someone?

To Ninva: I suppose it would ultimately depend on the circumstances, but if somebody purposefully killed my son there is no way I could ever forgive them. That would tip me over the edge, and I'd be stuck in the same boat as the rest of the murderers. There are circumstances where I'd possibly be able to forgive them for it, but it would take the most sincere 'apology', or what have you, for me to ever be able to get to that place. Also, out of curiosity, if we weren't to enforce punishments for crimes then what would be the deterrent? Morality? Can we trust our fellows with something like that? I just don't have enough faith in humanity to possibly believe we could reach a point where we could fully trust one another to such an extent, not before we destroy ourselves.

To Accname: Does it really make you just as bad? You clothe them, feed them, give them a roof over their heads and a place to sleep. They don't have to worry about the extremes of nature, or not being able to support themselves. They've lost their freedom, but they're still alive. They can still think and feel, make an impact on others' lives, and try to better themselves. It's a place that makes reform possible, often with a chance of parole unless they caused so much damage that it wouldn't justify the risk. Yeah, life in prison would suck. Having your freedom stripped from you would suck. But being dead, well, it's all over, then. There's no afterlife. Any notion of the concept is a human defense mechanism to help cope with the concept of death, when their existence ceases but for the memories that linger on in others. Better to be dead than be imprisoned? I completely disagree with you, there, unless daily torture is endured on the regular. But then, if the guards would do what guards are meant to do then this wouldn't be an issue.

Although I do agree that many of those with life sentences might be undeserving of them. They should be restricted to only those where reform isn't feasible, and the prisons should be focused more on the reform aspect than the caged-animal aspect.
Edit: To your most recent post, Accname, I agree with everything. In every one of those situations, it would be unjust for them to lose out on their full lives. But not everyone can change. You can't base all of your arguments off of that assumption. There are those whom, no matter what sort of therapy or pyschiatric help they receive, are basically monsters. Unfeeling, uncaring, unsalvageable, murderous monsters. To assume that they don't exist is folly.



It is surprising, though, how many of you jump to the side of the killers. Firecat's words may often fail, but one point did get across to me: what about the victims? I don't see how someone could kill your mom and your first thought would be to get them help. That seems so opposite of how human emotion and instinct works that I can't fathom how you can all feel that way. Do we have several mini-Christs on Thehelper, or am I just as bad as these murderers?
 

Accname

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I dont know if all can change, i dont know if any of them are not able to change.

I can only judge by myself, and i believe that i could change my life if i did something terribly wrong it would turn me inside out and i would feel so terribly aweful and sorry that i could think of nothing else then to make up for my mistakes.
I dont know how other people think and feel though. Maybe there are monsters, maybe they are so horribly different from people like that there really is no way for them to become a gain for society.
But maybe the difference is only gradual and it might just be more harder for those people to feel sorry, but not impossible. I really dont know.

And because i dont i think the best option is to assume the "worst" case (from the point of view of the judge) that every criminal can be resocialized and that every criminal could be potentially wrongfully sentenced.

I am not against prison or punishment, but i am against people being treated like monsters and locked up behind prison doors for the rest of their lifes with no second chance.

Does it really make you just as bad? You clothe them, feed them, give them a roof over their heads and a place to sleep. They don't have to worry about the extremes of nature, or not being able to support themselves. They've lost their freedom, but they're still alive.
How much is that life worth?
Do what others tell you to do. Eat what others tell you to eat. Go where others tell you to go. Sleep when others tell you to sleep. And nothing, absolutely nothing you can ever do to get out of it.
You are dead in such a situation. Its a faith probably worse then death, but i cannot tell, just assume.
Its hard to picture for us, but spending a year in prison probably is such a horrible experience, spending a life long in prison would be the worst nightmare i can guess.
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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but spending a year in prison probably is such a horrible experience.
I'm pretty sure it is. But a prison should not be a life with a flavor of luxury over there.

Btw: Sure they are human and they might regrets things they've done. But a cold blooded killer is one who kills with no regard. one who Just doesn't care and has no heart. And seriously, they might even lie "Pretend" they regret it. Just only to get out to kill again! And If you drunk, or under the effects of drugs and kill someone, then that's your own stupid fault ! They're no excuse for murder.
 

Fatmankev

Chef, Writer, and Midnight Toker
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How much is that life worth?
Do what others tell you to do. Eat what others tell you to eat. Go where others tell you to go. Sleep when others tell you to sleep. And nothing, absolutely nothing you can ever do to get out of it.
You are dead in such a situation. Its a faith probably worse then death, but i cannot tell, just assume.
Its hard to picture for us, but spending a year in prison probably is such a horrible experience, spending a life long in prison would be the worst nightmare i can guess.

I hear you, but as long as they still possess free thought then there's still a will to live. Look at the slaves of the Americas. They had to deal with unbelievable hardships that I probably couldn't even imagine, but they persevered and made the best of their lives in servitude until they knew freedom. Same goes for the prisoners.

Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures, and are notorious for making the best of the worst situations. People have struggled in servitude throughout the ages, finding ways to enjoy life, to find hope, and to make the best of things in general. There's no reason that this wouldn't apply here, and given my beliefs, existing in servitude with free thought would be infinitely better than only existing only in the memories of our loved ones.

The first part you wrote, though, I completely agree with. It's a solid counter argument, and I shouldn't just assume that there are people that can't be reformed. Given the nature of antisocial personality disorder, it's likely that that reform wouldn't be possible, but as you said: I'm not in their head. There's no way I could know everything about the situation, so I don't necessarily have a right to judge them on it. Thanks for putting that in a way that could actually get through to me.
 

Fatmankev

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And If you drunk, or under the effects of drugs and kill someone, then that's your own stupid fault ! They're no excuse for murder.

If you take a life you shouldn't get a second chance, an eye for an eye, a life for a life.

I would blame drunken killings on our government and our media, for making one of the most lethal and dangerous drugs in the world socially and legally acceptable. After being brainwashed by T.V. your entire life into believing that drinking is the accepted norm, you'd need a very convincing outside source to redirect your thoughts on the matter.

Face it: drinking is legal. That's our government's call. Why shouldn't they share in the responsibility for making it both available and enticing in the first place?

And your second remark, well, that's where we differ like night and day. How can you justify taking their life for taking someone else's? What about their families? What about those victims? All of a sudden, they don't matter now? I thought that was the basis of your entire argument. If not, then where's your logic?

Eye for an Eye. Fuckin' Hammurabi's Code... we don't live in olden times, so why the hell would we adopt their laws and ideals? They were designed by a militaristic government that was in the process of trying to dominate the world, killing others to steal their land. Do you really want to adopt the ideals of fucking murderers?

What's 'hypocrite' mean, again?
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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And your second remark, well, that's where we differ like night and day. How can you justify taking their life for taking someone else's? What about their families? What about those victims? All of a sudden, they don't matter now?
What do you talk about?
 

FireCat

Oh Shi.. Don't wake the tiger!
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In regards to what? My arguments throughout the thread, or my last post?
That thing I did Quote. hmm

Btw: families and the victims it's all matter not fucking murders freaks of the universe.
And If you're taking drugs or drinking and kill someone. It's All YOUR Fault. You can't blame government!
Hmm Excuse me I did murder. It's All the Government's Fault. let me go?

eh? ( Eye for an Eye. Fuckin' Hammurabi's Code) Never heard of Before!
 

Fatmankev

Chef, Writer, and Midnight Toker
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Alright. So 'Man A' kills 'Man B'. 'Man B' has loved ones, whom you'd consider victims. To serve those victims a sense of justice, you suggest we kill 'Man A'.

Are you with me?

'Man A' also has loved ones, whom you'd consider the victims of his death. Since he's being killed, in order to serve those victims a sense of justice, we need to kill the new killer.

It's an endless cycle. The more people that die, the more victims of deaths are created.

The death sentence is illogical as a result. If killing someone is as bad as it is, then how can you justify killing them in turn? If that act of taking a life is so heinous when that man commits it, how does it make it any less heinous when the executioner pushes the button? It doesn't.


And how is it all your fault if you kill someone when you're drunk? You're supposed to be drunk! or at least that's what the commercials we've been watching since we were children aim to lead us to believe. The man in this specific article was blacked out, and wasn't even conscious when he was around his girlfriend until he came to with her dead body in his hands. If the alcohol weren't legal and available, it's likely it never would've happened.

For the other drugs, there's less of an excuse, but still possibly warranting a second chance. Maybe they didn't know the full effects of the substance in question before ingesting it, and it fucked with their heads enough to make them do what they do. People go into things without knowing about them on a daily basis, and although ignorance is not an excuse, you still can't just say, "Well they should die for their mistakes!"

Also, your last sentence is ignorant, and I'd -rep it if I still could. I never said it made it alright. I never said they should let them go. I didn't mean it was all the government's fault. But if that's what they've grown up being told is okay, then don't you think the people and things that helped raise and shape their ideals and beliefs should be held partially accountable, too?
 

Fatmankev

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Once again I never said we should kill anyone.

Actually, you did. You just edited it out. I have it in a quote in my earlier post. "If you take a life you shouldn't get a second chance, an eye for an eye, a life for a life." Those were your words, even if you want to ignore it.
 
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