WikiLeaks

[Dr.Jack]

As you probably know, recently the site WikiLeaks received much attention due to its latest leaks. Some more info here and here.

What do you think about WikiLeaks? Are their actions right or wrong? Is it OK to act illegally and risk national security? Or it is perhaps, it's the citizens' right to know everything? Maybe, for people's safety and well being the country NEEDS to keep some things secret and WikiLeaks actually harms people's right.

Please follow the rules while debating.

Enjoy!

 

[Hatebreeder]

I think we should know of these kinds of things.
You can't use the respective States/Governments as a scapegoat though, because they are doing what they're doing to help the respective nations have a higher living standard.

It's like a survival of the fittest. You need to use what you've got and as effective as possible and that comes with backlashes and conditions/compromises.

Though, some may be dissapointed, because they are the ones suffering under given circumstances, HOWEVER, YOU voted and YOU layed your faith into those Politicians to handle things as good as possible.

All in all, this gives me a feeling of security when I can actually see/understand what my nation is doing. It also shows me, that my nation is not made up by idiots. It's harsh, but thats how things work.

... Though, it's still better than running after animals with sticks and stones. Survival is just not that what it was millions of years ago ;D

 

[esb]

I don't think our enemies should know this kind of things. How come we don't know THEIR secrets?

 

[Hatebreeder]

I don't think our enemies should know this kind of things. How come we don't know THEIR secrets?

It's not all US, there are also documents on China and Germany among other.

 

[Slapshot136]

I think that 99% of the information there should be public - there are some cases where it would probably be better to keep it hidden, such as the names of specific people who could potentially become targeted, but outside of that, I think that there is no reason why the information should not be released - especially if the government spies on its people/other countries, shouldn't the people know what sort of information the government has on them? or what about people who lie and say something but then do something else completely - don't you want such BS to be exposed?

so overall, while it's not perfect, I do think that it's good overall, and thus their actions are OK and should continue

I don't think our enemies should know this kind of things. How come we don't know THEIR secrets?

what enemies are you referring to, and what information specifically? (examples are fine)

also, like hatebreeder said, this isn't only U.S. information that is being exposed, the U.S. also gains information from these releases as well - you could argue that the U.S. has the most to lose and the least to gain, but that only goes for the government, I think the U.S. people benefit the most

 

[Wargasm]

Latest leaks so more how stuff is report Batman and robin lol

The only intresting that i could find is that Batman err i mean Putin holds a company in amsterdam and invested 40 billion dollars in it.. Will take ahwile till we know what goes on there.. if we will ever know.. Guess the Russians will talk even less after this wikileak

Wargy
http://rogue.su

 

[Dr.Jack]

So it seems as if you support the leaks. So obviously I'll take the opposing approach.

Don't you think the government kept this information hidden for a reason? We picked our government so it will protect us, so don't we need to trust it? This information obviously harms U.S.'s and many other countries' security and international diplomatic power, so actually, even though at first it seems as if the leak is in our best interest, perhaps it is actually harmful?

Thanks for debating so well, keep it up! :thup:

 

[Slapshot136]

Don't you think the government kept this information hidden for a reason?

yes, but unfortunately it's often for the wrong reason - i.e. to let politicians shift the blame from them to something/someone else, aka scapegoat someone

how many times in the media do you see a "deadlock" where person A says it's person B's fault, while person B says it's person A's fault? - how will that ever get anywhere unless the information is exposed? (feel free to replace person with a government/company, the logic is the same)

We picked our government so it will protect us, so don't we need to trust it?

people can't trust anyone who wiretaps/gps tracks them/etc. regardless of if it's the government or just some hacker - trust needs to be mutual, and I see this as a cycle that is getting worse (in terms of trust) - the government trusts the people less and less, while the people trust the government less and less

This information obviously harms U.S.'s and many other countries' security and international diplomatic power

agreed that it harms their diplomatic power, however is it power that they deserved to have in the first place? i.e. if a country (Turkey) is shown (via wikileaks) to support al-qaeda, isn't any shred of diplomatic power that they previously had unmerited?

does it harm their diplomatic power if they haven't done anything wrong? or only by the extend of things that they have done that are wrong (im not saying that there are any perfect countries who have done nothing wrong), but im asking how would it harm them if they haven't, since if they have, I see it as something that they deserved - criminals/wrong doers should be caught and punished, even if it's a country/government

even though at first it seems as if the leak is in our best interest, perhaps it is actually harmful?

I see it as the other way around, this seems harmful at a first glance, but aren't these types of leaks the things that prevent a government from gaining complete power over the press/people and being able to spread whatever kind of propaganda they want and get away with it?

 

[Hatebreeder]

I agree with Slapshot.

However, what kind of trust should we put into our governments, if they don't trust us, the people, with sensitive information?

These leaks also prevent us from doing mistakes. If Turkey support al-quaeda, then should we support Turkey? I mean, in the end, the EU would have supprted Turkey and Turkey would've ( I assume ) support al-quaeda. Soesn't that make the EU to companions/supporters of terrorism?

This information may be harmfull, but it's not like our respective countries can't handle the damage. And it's not like the people can't handle this information. More information = more wisdom. More wisdom = more Power. More power means more influence. More influence = something like a democracy

 

[esb]

Anyone remember "Loose lips sink ships?"

 

[Bartuc08]

First off, I don't speak for the US Air Force when I debate my side, with that out of the way let me give my opinion on the matter.

WikiLeaks is dangerous for Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Sailors. like Esb quoted, "loose lips sink ships," people tend to forget that WikiLeaks doesn't just give out information on corrupt politicians, they also post information on the armaments used by specific forces. You can go on WikiLeaks and find blueprints for US tanks, weapons, planes, etc. That kind of information in the wrong hands could be disastrous, essentially the enemy would know of designer flaws and ways to bypass armor.

With that said, I can't support anything that would endanger an honest man's life.

I won't cover the political side of it. Simply put, if the good outweighs the bad, then let it be. If a Soldier can survive because information was kept secure, then so be it what a politician did before he became senator.

 

[Slapshot136]

I can't support anything that would endanger an honest man's life.

so then you don't support war in general, and you would support things that prevent/reduce war, correct? maybe I need to make the argument that wikileaks/similar prevent/reduce wars if that's the case

 

[Bartuc08]

War is in or nature, so long as there is limited resources, there will always be war. Our government, however shady, is their to make sure we get our fair share of that resource. No Government is pure, anyone with a brain knows this. Secrets must be kept for the good of mankind. I'd prefer my government, however shady, to remain secretive if it means I don't have to worry about the enemy finding out about a troop movement that I might be a part of.

As far as lies go, they're never a problem until they're found out. In the case of our government they're usually found out so far after the fact that it's no longer a concern to us.

 

[Slapshot136]

I'd prefer my government, however shady, to remain secretive if it means I don't have to worry about the enemy finding out about a troop movement that I might be a part of.

I don't think the information is THAT current, it still lags by several months at best, and the government has just as much time and more resources to re-analyze and re-plan those movements as would any possible enemies (im assuming you mean the U.S. government, which spends more then the entire rest of the world combined on the military)

even if there never is "no war", there can always be less war - do you think the U.S. would have attacked Iraq if the knowledge of there being no weapons of mass destruction was public? I see that as potentially 1 war that could have been avoided if the information was leaked earlier for example

as far as lies found out too far after the fact - the damage is done, but does that mean that we should just ignore the people who were responsible? what about government lies - the government doesn't change that drastically, so even if the people who were in power left/retired, their successors usually are very similar, unless of course there is a revolution/intervention/etc. caused by (*gasp - information*)

 

[esb]

At the time of 9/11, everyone agreed with the Iraq war. Or at least wasn't against it. We all used the excuse of "There's WMD there!". Had someone come out and said there weren't any, no one would have believed it.

The government does the dirty work no one else wants to do (or admit). No one else, being us.

 

[phyrex1an]

At the time of 9/11, everyone agreed with the Iraq war.

I think you're confusing Iraq with Afghanistan.

 

[esb]

I think I am... :/

 

[Hatebreeder]

The government does the dirty work no one else wants to do (or admit). No one else, being us.

Thats not quite right.
Anyone can kill. Maybe not friends or parents or people who are close to the one killing.
I don't think you'd hessitate if your own life is on the line.

And the government does not "do" the dirty work. It organizes it and lets others handle it. Besides, did you see to what measures the US is going through, to silence the founder? Obviously, there are things that the US isn't too fond of and doesn't want others to know. IMO, their lies are going too far. If they don't want people to know, then they shouldn't say anything. If the people suspect the US, then the US should show the courage and the maturity to clear things out.
It's not like people can't forgive. It's not like people can't understand. A government needs to handle things with reason, not with lies. Comprehension lies within reason, right?

 

[esb]

Yes, we've been lied to. We've blinding ourselves into thinking our government is a little good do-er. Innocent and so perfect, filled with liberty and freedom. It's not. It does the most corrupt things and commits the most atrocious acts. They don't want others to find this out because they're all living in a lie.

 

[sqrage]

War is in or nature, so long as there is limited resources, there will always be war. Our government, however shady, is their to make sure we get our fair share of that resource. No Government is pure, anyone with a brain knows this. Secrets must be kept for the good of mankind. I'd prefer my government, however shady, to remain secretive if it means I don't have to worry about the enemy finding out about a troop movement that I might be a part of.

As far as lies go, they're never a problem until they're found out. In the case of our government they're usually found out so far after the fact that it's no longer a concern to us.

Well, this is just from a youtube comment, but I really wouldn't doubt it's truth.

Yes because you read all of the documents pertaining to the leak and are so intelligent to know what every document says. Not a lot of? critical information ie troop locations/weapon caches and serious certain conversations between people are left anonymous and locations are for the most part censored. That's why they have a backup file with all the names and locations that's encrypted in case if anything happens to him. But then again apparently you're well informed aren't you?