Tutorial Z-Factor and Proper Late Game Balance of Power

Discussion in 'Graveyard' started by Ioannes, May 28, 2010.

  1. tooltiperror

    tooltiperror Super Moderator Staff Member

    Ratings:
    +233 / 0 / -0
    We should have a new tag for this.*
     
  2. Jedi

    Jedi New Member

    Ratings:
    +63 / 0 / -0
  3. uberfoop

    uberfoop ~=Admiral Stukov=~

    Ratings:
    +176 / 0 / -0
    I believe you're taking his article the wrong way. He's not saying that a team should have to spend a lot of time to get the win after nailing a decisive, irreversable advantage. In fact, that's precisely what he's against. He's saying that, once a team does get a clear decisive advantage, the game should end quickly.

    I believe your confusion is caused by your assumption that he's recommending the "more creeps when a push is strong" mechanic for all maps, when he isn't; he's saying that, in the context of Blizzards map, which, by the way, is not a typical aos at all, it is a mechanic that works.
     
  4. Viikuna

    Viikuna No Marlo no game.

    Ratings:
    +265 / 0 / -0
    Actually, snowball effect usually makes games last longer, because you need that big snowball to win the game, and its something that can only have in the late game, even if its the early game that determines the team that gets the snowball.

    Its the moment when you know you have lost for sure, but you still gotta wait for enemies to finish you off.
     
  5. SineCosine

    SineCosine I'm still looking for my Tangent

    Ratings:
    +76 / 0 / -0
    The thing is, how easy is it to get that snowball growing? O_O
     
  6. Ioannes

    Ioannes Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face.

    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    To be honest, I'm saying that there should NOT exist in a map such a thing as a decisive, irreversible advantage in the first place. I'm saying that such a thing is bad and if it exists in a map, then the games will be fun only part of the time. I think that a spring-like mechanic, of the type seen in 'The Search for Illidan' is the best conceptual decision in an AoS (and other PvP maps, in the form of various handicaps and compensations for the losing side).
    [​IMG]

    No. You do not need the that big snowball to win the game. You are not supposed to need that big snowball to win the game. Because if you do, the game will be decided too soon and the remaining half an hour or whatever will not be pleasant, because one of the teams will have no hope of winning. The map won't be fun.

    I think it's a bad idea if in a map you have to wait for enemies to finish you off. Playing during that period would be not fun and a waste of time.

    Z-factor determines that.:)
     
  7. Viikuna

    Viikuna No Marlo no game.

    Ratings:
    +265 / 0 / -0

    Dude, I didnt say anything about map being fun or good or anything.

    I simply said that snowball effect usually makes games that last longer, and told you why it is like that.
     
  8. Ioannes

    Ioannes Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face.

    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    W8, how come? :confused:
    Positive Z-factor makes games being decided earlier, negative Z-factor makes games decided at the very end. Hence, positive Z-factor and the snowballing it creates are supposed to reduce the game duration (or at least the duration of the real competition between players).
     
  9. tooltiperror

    tooltiperror Super Moderator Staff Member

    Ratings:
    +233 / 0 / -0
    Ioannes, perhaps you should add in more information about how to achieve this, for all different genres of games.
     
  10. Viikuna

    Viikuna No Marlo no game.

    Ratings:
    +265 / 0 / -0
    game duration != the duration of real competition between players
     
  11. uberfoop

    uberfoop ~=Admiral Stukov=~

    Ratings:
    +176 / 0 / -0
    Right, but given the difficulty in determining exactly when that moment of toppling is, the idea that there should be NO time whatsoever in the icky snowballed state is a fairly idealized one.

    You might notice in my description, "once a team does get a clear decisive advantage, the game should end quickly," that the result of this as this "quickly" approaches to the implied best value of "in 0 seconds", my model approaches your idealized one; that the switch to a decisive advantage on the part of one team should immediately be a win.


    So, our ideas with respect to the ideal situation aren't at odds whatsoever :)



    Also, with respect to the springboard idea, I would like to disagree with your argument that having stronger pushes as you approach an enemy base would necessarily be a good thing. Many AoS maps are played largelly outside of the bases, and are carried on in such a way that, if a wave actually pushes past the middle, it could be either random chance OR it resulted from a team ALREADY getting a clear advantage, thus creating stronger waves would do nothing but PREVENT this clear advantage from winning as quickly as it should. By going the other way you're going against your own model of "less post-snowball time = better".
    Again, it was a GREAT idea for Blizzard's map, but it's NOT a mechanic that could be simply slapped onto any aos map with the hope that gameplay will be improved.
     
  12. Ioannes

    Ioannes Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face.

    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    I will, I guess.

    I think not, because once the gap of power has grown too big for the losing team to make up for with skill, there is nothing they can do. And so they can legitimately and honourably lay down their arms and stop playing. Because there is nothing they can do to win (unless the top enemy player loses connection or some other extra-game event). Even if their base and towers are still standing.

    @uberpoof: point taken :)
     
  13. Viikuna

    Viikuna No Marlo no game.

    Ratings:
    +265 / 0 / -0
    It doesnt matter what you think.
    Game duration is the time between game start and game end. Your opinion is not required.
     
  14. Ioannes

    Ioannes Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face.

    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    If so, then still, only the competition part is fun.

    Bah I'm tired of adding graphs.

    Well, I'll simplify the article in a week or two.
     
  15. jwallstone

    jwallstone New Member

    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0
    Just wanted to say that I really liked this article. This is a great must-read for all the starting mapmakers who might still have the "cool uber rewards I can give for kills" mentality. Careful game design is very important, much more so than fancy effects etc, and seems to be missing from a lot of maps.

    You may enjoy this site: http://www.mindflare.com/wc3maps/index.htm. I'd recommend the Notes and Writings section, where this mapmaker wrote some very insightful pieces on game design. Also, check out his maps as well - some great concepts in there.

    This is a good section:
    http://www.mindflare.com/wc3maps/ideas/aos.htm
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Ioannes

    Ioannes Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face.

    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    Bump!
    Yep, thanks. Very useful, indeed.
     
  17. Darthfett

    Darthfett Super Mod

    Ratings:
    +614 / 0 / -0
    Great tutorial, one of the things I've been considering in my Forest CTF game for a while.

    Some feedback:

    It may be beneficial to include a section on other types of maps. For example, in games with no difference in players' power but the teamwork and skill of a team (such as team fortress 2, where respawning is a factor), some snowballing/steamrolling is essential, as it prevents stalemates.

    It also would be a good idea to include a graph on how a player's power should be used to calculate their reward, i.e. a 1/x graph: [​IMG]
    So that the further behind a player is, the more reward he/she gets, to increase his/her chance of catching up.
     
  18. Bloodcount

    Bloodcount Starcraft II Moderator Staff Member

    Ratings:
    +304 / 0 / -0
    veeeeeeeery well written. I learned a few things from it.
     

Share This Page