News Hackers target Westboro Baptist Church after Newtown threat

[Fatmankev]

lol mine weren't even close. My dad ALWAYS told me to stand up for myself, and especially for other people. If someone was picking on me or someone else, his solution was to hit them and see if they stop. If not, hit them harder. And it IS effective, though sometimes causes suspensions.

I was talking more with my brothers. Dunno about your parents, but ours weren't huge on listening to us fight or dealing with the injuries, so we'd all get in trouble for that shit.

And you would also be wrong. But go ahead anyway, I don't care enough to really do anything.

I mean, that's cool, but I feel like responding to the comment is about the extent of what you could reasonably do about it anyway.

No it isn't, that's aptitude. And what are the other factors then?

Aptitude by that definition is synonymous with intelligence.

So what? They made a different justification than you did, most likely because of some strict religious and moral standards they set up around certain aspects of society. Tell me, why is it OKAY to be gay? What makes YOU right and THEM wrong? The exact same level of justifications they use, only to argue against it. There is no difference in how you achieved your end result.

I didn't imply that their views were wrong, just that their refusal to assess new or outside information is indicative of their intelligence, or lack thereof.

You don't appear to be very open to learning more about their opinions. Why should they be to yours?

I was open enough to learning about them to bother doing a bit of research on their church. I get that they're taking select passages from the bible in a literal sense while ignoring other passages that might dispute them, which is hypocritical and makes no logical sense, to be frank.

And I can say the same thing about you and the vast majority of the world population.

Cool, bro'.

No, it shows their unwillingness to change. What new information has come out that shows with a good level of reliability that some part of their belief is nonfactual and should be amended?

What new information? Anything that's happened since the bible's been written that doesn't coincide with those select few passages.

 

[Varine]

Okay fuck dude, I'm not sober enough to deal with this now. I broke in to my bweerd tree... you'll get a response later.

 

[Dan]

Ehh, I'm dropping the argument. I attacked this one at the wrong angle because I'm angry. I think that Varine is right for the most part... It's our point of view that makes us believe we are right, and them wrong... But I do think that they are extreme hypocrits. I could punch a 10000 holes in what they say to be their truths. When I get some sleep and my head clears of this gin, I might make a better argument as well.

GJ Varine. You win this one.

 

[Fatmankev]

Regardless of who's right or wrong, whether in this debate or with the church, we're all entitled to our opinions. It's just that the ones that make sense to me are easier to accept.

 

[Dan]

Regardless of who's right or wrong, whether in this debate or with the church, we're all entitled to our opinions. It's just that the ones that make sense to me are easier to accept.

Indeed. I think that they are despicable people. Society could vote them off the island easily enough.

 

[Varine]

Indeed. I think that they are despicable people. Society could vote them off the island easily enough.

So do I. However, I think it's important that they not be demonized specifically regarding their beliefs, because theirs, like anyone else's, are founded on faith that can't be discredited at any time in the foreseeable future. They are basing it on religious beliefs, which even though I don't really believe in God, I have an extreme respect for and make a conscious effort to defend in most circumstances. I was writing a book on college on it, but I gave up some year or so ago.

 

[Fatmankev]

So do I. However, I think it's important that they not be demonized specifically regarding their beliefs, because theirs, like anyone else's, are founded on faith that can't be discredited at any time in the foreseeable future. They are basing it on religious beliefs, which even though I don't really believe in God, I have an extreme respect for and make a conscious effort to defend in most circumstances. I was writing a book on college on it, but I gave up some year or so ago.

I don't think they're being demonized for their beliefs. They're being demonized for their actions and for forcing those beliefs unto others at distressing times and in distressing ways with the intent of causing emotional or psychological harm. That's pretty fucked up. I'm all for people believing what they want to believe until those beliefs start causing harm to others.

Don't matter what religion they practice. Whether that's what drives their actions/opinions or not isn't important, it's that the actions they take are reprehensible. Someone can believe that they're the only person with a right to live all they want, but once they start acting on those beliefs and hurting others, I don't see what's defensible. I don't see how you'd even go about defending it.

 

[Varine]

I don't think they're being demonized for their beliefs. They're being demonized for their actions and for forcing those beliefs unto others at distressing times and in distressing ways with the intent of causing emotional or psychological harm.

They're taking action for what they think is right. Is it the best methodology of solving what they see is the various problems of society? Probably not, but they ARE doing something, which is a hell of a lot more than most anyone else can say, and because of that they deserve respect. Yes, they're kind of insulting, and I've gotten in fights with a few of them that protested a friend's funeral, but the fact remains that they are a minority of people that are taking action to change the world into something that they see fit.

Don't matter what religion they practice. Whether that's what drives their actions/opinions or not isn't important, it's that the actions they take are reprehensible. Someone can believe that they're the only person with a right to live all they want, but once they start acting on those beliefs and hurting others, I don't see what's defensible. I don't see how you'd even go about defending it.

Like I just did. How would go about criticizing it in a way that reasonably proves that they're the ones in the wrong? You have absolutely no more evidence that they're wrong than they do they're right. And maybe if more people stood the fuck up for what they think is right, instead of playing it down and bitching and moaning that everyone else is evil except them because they disagree, we wouldn't have this problem. But to expect that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness, because no one wants to take the initiative to change anything. All anyone wants to do is tear shit down that they don't like, but everyone is too fucking lazy to figure out what you're going to build in it's place.

And for the record, most of them are pretty nice people that are willing to have a fairly rational conversation. Well maybe no rational, but at least decent, which is also more than most people. They aren't doing what they're doing because they're bad, evil people, they're doing it because they genuinely believe that that's what the problem is, and that's how they chose to go about solving it. I can think of far worse methods of protest that they opted not to do, at least for the most part.

 

[Fatmankev]

I don't understand even what they're trying to accomplish. What belief do they have that they're fighting for? That everyone else is going to Hell? How does telling people these things do anything toward solving the problem? They're not letting them know so that they might repent, they're just telling them that they're going to Hell. What is the goal, here?

You keep talking about them standing up for what they believe in. So do a lot of great and terrible people. We're doing it right now, arguing without relenting to each others' opinions because we disagree with just about every one of them. I have some respect for the terrifying empire Hitler created and everything he achieved by standing up for what he believed in, but I still think of him as a monstrous person that took millions of lives at his command, and so I hate the idea of him and what he stood for.

You keep demanding proof of why my opinion is right and their's is wrong. Seriously? How do you prove an opinion? I feel like I've made clear why I feel the way I do. Are you suggesting that my opinions have no merit? And yet you approve of these actions on the basis of them standing up for what they believe? C'mon, man. Don't tell me that and then shoot me down for explaining what I believe and why.

 

[Slapshot136]

I wonder if some sort of temporary sanity plea would get someone a chance to bash a few heads in?

ftfy

@ varine - if them taking action for what they think is right ends up causing everyone else grief, is it still right for them to be left unopposed? most other religions are focused on helping others (even non-believers)

 

[Varine]

Your first paragraph tells me you're not largely informed of what their church is or know very much about protesting in general. Typically when you hold signs at a LGBT rally that says you're going to hell, you're saying that you shouldn't be gay. And I can come up with reasonable explanations that have nothing to do with religion as to why that is if need be, though that is a little beyond the scope of the topic. The second, no we're not, no one but the what? Six of us, care, and none of us are likely to change. You're not approaching the masses, not publicly supporting anything. I don't even know who you are. Third paragraph, I'm not demanding anything, I'm telling you that you your opinion on any given topic is no higher than theirs, especially in matters regarding what is right and wrong, however you obviously, like most people, think otherwise. And I'm not disapproving of you in any way, I'm simply defending the WBC against your attacks in a manner that I think, altogether, is less offensive than yours, though that's subjective, as I typically do most religions, especially when no one else here is going to.

And you're not standing up for anything. You're telling your opinions to a bunch of people that more or less agree with you; none of us care because we all seem to have fairly similar mindsets. It does absolutely nothing to further ANY purpose beyond misplaced venting of your feelings. If you want to say you're standing up for this, go to talk to someone in the WBC.

Slapshot - then go fucking oppose them. This, bitching and judging people that most of you probably barely know anything about on an Internet forum where we literally don't know each other, I don't know one of your names with the exception of maybe Dan, is not anything but bitching. You're not opposing them, you're not defending anything, there's no one here but me offering ANY kind of argument and I'm barely doing it. And I don't even like them, but I also don't like this weird approach people take to things, and I also really don't like how everyone here seems to be considering this little back and forth to be rising up for your beliefs. It's no wonder nothing gets accomplished in the first world....

 

[Fatmankev]

Yeah, I'm not standing up for what I believe, just sittin' down bitchin' about it. But it seems as if you're suggesting that simply due to the fact that they are taking action, that they're in the right over everyone that isn't.

My 'offensive attacks' may have been a bit ill-conceived, but I was just putting myself into the shoes a person in that situation - if someone were doing this to someone I knew and loved, I'd want to do something about it, and I wouldn't feel justified in the repercussions that'd fall to me for this.

And the validity of anyone's opinion is subjective to the person considering it. My views would certainly skew with their's as their's have with mine. To say that everyone's opinions hold the same weight may be how you view it, but there are always things that will mean so much more to me than others because they're opinions formed on discernible facts and past events that I can relate to without dispute. To me, that means a lot more than views based off of information from a work that may or may not be fictional. There's no way to prove or disprove most of the Bible, so I wouldn't consider that an exemplary source to garner your knowledge from. That said, much of my information is likely misinformation, so in that regard I can agree that their opinions and my opinions are equally ill-founded.

 

[FireCat]

most other religions are focused on helping others (even non-believers)

I hardly think so. Do you? Well, helping others "shouldn't be religion based at all"

 

[KaerfNomekop]

Well, helping others "shouldn't be religion based at all"

QFT.

I'm going to sit with Dan in the corner now.

 

[Slapshot136]

I hardly think so. Do you? Well, helping others "shouldn't be religion based at all"

religion is like a sub-section of "helping others" - I don't think that helping others is based on religion at all, but rather religion is based on helping others, which brings up the question of is WBC a religion?

 

[FireCat]

religion is based on helping others,

There's no such thing as religion-based to help people.. It's Just an excuse in order to look good. rather than to be good. Hmm
And no!

 

[Varine]

Yeah, I'm not standing up for what I believe, just sittin' down bitchin' about it. But it seems as if you're suggesting that simply due to the fact that they are taking action, that they're in the right over everyone that isn't.

If you go back and bother to actually take in a little bit of what I wrote you would see that I made clear, on multiple occasions, I neither like nor support this church or what they do. I am, however, defending their actions, despite my dislike for what it is, because I have an amount of respect for them, and anyone else who vocalizes their beliefs in such a manner, and because I take a weird stance on religion in general. Clearly, though, you're not reading what I wrote with very much effort because you're failing to comprehend the difference between what I believe personally and what I defend objectively, which is a very important thing for you learn if you wish to discuss anything to an extent that may change your opinion however slightly or expect anyone else to. And now I'm done with this because you are failing to even appropriately defend your own stance despite taking everything I say as some personal attack, making all of this an enormous waste of my time.

 

[Slapshot136]

There's no such thing as religion-based to help people..

im sorry, what exactly is the point of religion then?

 

[Varine]

Are we back to questioning why Firecat says what he does?

 

[KaerfNomekop]

im sorry, what exactly is the point of religion then?

Religions give like-minded people a chance to gather and meet new people, like an exclusive subset of society. People might agree on being nice to others, but exactly how much change to give a homeless man will still be up for debate.