Socialist or Conservative Government

[WolSHaman]

socialism ALWAYS leads to communism. they go hand in hand and always will. and people who work hard and are homless in America spend thier money on what they want.

the constitution does work. I don't know if it not working means people can do whatever they want and not have consequences. or if your not taken care of by the government (who shoud never be a parent figure ever in any case) or.......?

relax to hot showers and camomile tea, or warm milk are good. water trickles, certian dancing light contraptions help for me.

First of all, we need to separate some of your thoughts here. When you say socialism and talk of it as this huge evil, is it really socialism/communism, or is it the thought of the Soviet Union type authoritarian system?

The Constitution does work indeed. The US has become a mighty fine country to live in. Does a damn good job. However, there are definite flaws, and the thing is it's a reflection of the times and people. And just because it works doesn't mean there isn't something better. And how do you define having the government be a "parent figure?"

Also, this poll seems very broad. I think it might be better as just a general political philosophy thread?

 

[pantrygirl]

I would not risk a penny to find out if something is better, its an absolutly small chance there is. I most certianly do not want to be a part of the experiment because of the dire ramifications. The Soviet Union is what socialism turns into there is no stopping it. Government with no checks and balances combined with human nature will allways be they same. It may take a while.

The Parent Figure thing. I know alot of people who party and have kids and bitch and moan how they don't have enough money and are poor and the government should intervine and take care of them (Gov. Doesn't work is a common phrase). Adults need to be adults, gov. intervention takes that responsebility away. I know thier kids too.

 

[New_U.S.]

socialism ALWAYS leads to communism.

Backwords. Communism is the idea that the workers will control the means of production. Everyone get the same. It is classless. This means the only true government that can support a pure communistic society is a direct democracy, which is where EVERYONE has a say in government.

In a socialist society, the government says how much everyone needs. Thus you create a command economy, and putting leaders in charge you can easily expand their own power, creating a totalitarian state.

There has never been a true communist country. Only socialist.

Now I'm trying to figure out what this debate is for. Both types of political ideologies mentioned are not going to be used for the United States. The U.S. will have a liberal President, and a liberal Congress (the incoming Obama administration is not Socialist..)

EDIT:

An example of today would be people in ghettos who do drugs and have kids, then say its not fair they don't have what people who work hard and limit thier family size have (which is hard to do kids are fun).

I read a bit more and found this little peace of shit. I don't think you realize how this is only targeting extremes in society. The truth is, the lower you are on the economic rope, the harder it is to go up on it. Look, people in poverty may have to deal with lesser quality schools, poor living areas, problems at home. There's a lot more problems to be delt with at that level of society. This means it will be harder to say, do well in school, go to college, get a good job, etc.....

In a capitalistic society, some people will always be above your average, and some are below. With this sort of society, its just about having a strong middle class, and if that's true, then the system works very well for most, and the better you are, the higher you move.

 

[WolSHaman]

I would not risk a penny to find out if something is better, its an absolutly small chance there is. I most certianly do not want to be a part of the experiment because of the dire ramifications. The Soviet Union is what socialism turns into there is no stopping it. Government with no checks and balances combined with human nature will allways be they same. It may take a while.

The Parent Figure thing. I know alot of people who party and have kids and bitch and moan how they don't have enough money and are poor and the government should intervine and take care of them (Gov. Doesn't work is a common phrase). Adults need to be adults, gov. intervention takes that responsebility away. I know thier kids too.

No, the Soviet Union is not always what socialism turns into. There are two ways "socialism" can get introduced. There's the top-down method, where the government decides that they're going to try to do it, which leads to not actually Socialism, and creates an authoritarian government which is never a communistic or socialistic government. The world has never really seen a truly socialistic or communistic government yet, although Spain did elect socialists to power. However, the second way Socialism could develop is through the actions of the masses, who get pissed off enough to actually stage an uprising, and as a result they institute a more egalitarian system, and they could create a democratic, socialistic system.

I still don't see the government parent figure thing... yes people want the government to "take care" of them, but how do you define that? Is welfare a method of being a "parent figure?" Or how about Medicaid, is this a form of "parenting?" And I honestly don't think you know a lot of poor people who think the government should intervene on their behalf, but I get your point there. What I believe they want is to actually have a fighting chance, and not have to work multiple jobs to raise a family. Some of them are there and are only there because they constantly make stupid mistakes, but that is the minority. People over-scrutinize those in poverty, and they look at them drinking, even though it could just be an occasional beer and then say "oh man those poor people don't know how to spend money!"

>>Backwords. Communism is the idea that the workers will control the means of production. Everyone get the same. It is classless. This means the only true government that can support a pure communistic society is a direct democracy, which is where EVERYONE has a say in government.

Socialism can be communally owned too, that's one of the definitions. The primary difference is that communism pushes for a completely classless society, whereas socialism can still have some sort of class system, just more equality between the classes.

 

[New_U.S.]

Socialism can be communally owned too

Yes, but it never has, and it realistically never will be.

 

[Zakyath]

>socialism ALWAYS leads to communism.

You couldn't be further from the truth. At least as far as I know. Please prove this to me, because I don't believe you.

 

[pantrygirl]

Even if your lower on the economic rope you never have to stay there in America. I didn't say it was easy. If people judge them thats no even an issue because the situations the same. I have the party and have kids mentality and work very hard to change it. Hard work produces. speaking of witch working hard and keeping your money is capitalism. You'r money doesn't belong with others. If you earn money and are poor monetarily your spending it on what you want, wich is fine. But complaining your poor afterward is rediculous.
look at socialist governments through history and see how they unfold. You can proove it to yourself and you will not only be proud of the work you did. If your honest with yourself you will be convinced (not implying your not honest with yourself. Part of procedure) this is most likely the last post on this I'll do but if anyone has some insight on ai attack groups....
http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?p=931066#post931066

 

[WolSHaman]

Even if your lower on the economic rope you never have to stay there in America. I didn't say it was easy. If people judge them thats no even an issue because the situations the same. I have the party and have kids mentality and work very hard to change it. Hard work produces. speaking of witch working hard and keeping your money is capitalism. You'r money doesn't belong with others. If you earn money and are poor monetarily your spending it on what you want, wich is fine. But complaining your poor afterward is rediculous.
look at socialist governments through history and see how they unfold. You can proove it to yourself and you will not only be proud of the work you did. If your honest with yourself you will be convinced (not implying your not honest with yourself. Part of procedure) this is most likely the last post on this I'll do but if anyone has some insight on ai attack groups....
http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?p=931066#post931066

If you're lower on the economic scale you're pretty much stuck here, as travelling to other countries can be expensive, and it can be hard having to almost restart from scratch. Also, I don't think you realize how hard it can be to be poor. The odds are stacked against them, its even been found that grocery stores will increase the prices in poor neighborhoods so they have to pay more for products that are of the same or lesser quality (http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_8818445). Even places like Wal-Mart will charge more in lower income neighborhoods (http://walmartwatch.com/blog/archiv...re_for_groceries_in_low_income_neighborhoods/). The poor aren't just complaining because they can't spend money, there is a definite disparity between how they are treated and how much say they have compared to those who have more money. And if "your money doesn't belong with others," does that mean you oppose all forms of taxation? Also I have yet to see a socialist government develop into a truly classless, communist society. In a a communist society it's obviously classless, but instead in most cases the rural workers will end up getting robbed by the government to fuel the urban development. Also, communist societies are economically egalitarian, which obviously never happened, and people never seemed to gain economic equality either. Also, not all socialist countries develop into communist countries, I don't think China developed into a communist society.