Report Fish cannot feel pain say scientists

[KMilz]

[Article]

Interesting, I never thought of there being any difference. It begs the question of whether or not fish sense this sort of animal pain or not if their brains can't even comprehend pain as we know it. I'd venture to guess that they do, and that's why they react the way they do when they're taken out of water, stuck on a hook, etc.

 

[Dan]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/07/05/the-girl-who-cant-feel-pain/

Something interesting to watch that is relevant to the conversation.

 

[camelCase]

IIRC, there's a whole village of them somewhere. People who don't feel pain.

 

[Blackveiled2]

You can't say a fish cannot feel pain, if it has a reaction to a painful experience, it can feel pain. Pain stimuli is a reaction the body can make, whether you actually feel/remember feeling it is not really something covered. In a real situation, a lot of the time people won't perform surgical operations on an actual person if they can still feel pain stimuli, but are unconcious. But I wouldn't necessarily say that the person would remember it happening. So if you were cut open, and woke up the next day and didn't remember a thing then would you say you felt pain? Yeah, afterwards you would but that is expected. Personally, I'm not really curious whether a fish has pain stimuli, they probably do. I just wonder if they are mentally capable to actually feel.

 

[Varine]

Enough to intern at MIT. Not sure about you, though.

So not enough to teach?

 

[tom_mai78101]

So not enough to teach?

If he teaches, we are then able to put blame on the government for not giving us more education funding to each and every institutions.

 

[camelCase]

So not enough to teach?

Sadly not =/

 

[Dan]

You can't say a fish cannot feel pain, if it has a reaction to a painful experience, it can feel pain. Pain stimuli is a reaction the body can make, whether you actually feel/remember feeling it is not really something covered. In a real situation, a lot of the time people won't perform surgical operations on an actual person if they can still feel pain stimuli, but are unconcious. But I wouldn't necessarily say that the person would remember it happening. So if you were cut open, and woke up the next day and didn't remember a thing then would you say you felt pain? Yeah, afterwards you would but that is expected. Personally, I'm not really curious whether a fish has pain stimuli, they probably do. I just wonder if they are mentally capable to actually feel.

I would like to point out that you are playing a game of semantics and should first define what you would call "feeling pain" as well as offer alternative labels for what we are speaking of. You allow no one to win when you use a term such as "feeling pain" to mean both conscious and unconscious pain--you have to choose.

 

[Varine]

If he teaches, we are then able to put blame on the government for not giving us more education funding to each and every institutions.

We already do.

 

[Blackveiled2]

I would like to point out that you are playing a game of semantics and should first define what you would call "feeling pain" as well as offer alternative labels for what we are speaking of. You allow no one to win when you use a term such as "feeling pain" to mean both conscious and unconscious pain--you have to choose.

Feeling pain is based on perception, I can't truly define it, nor do I have to choose. I feel pain differently than you do, and I'm most certain a fish feels pain differently as well.

 

[camelCase]

Lol ^
Congratulations, you have made it impossible to reason with you.

 

[FireCat]

We have different receptors for pain in our body. Well, you might scream of pain " Just of a needle stick" lol But others might not feel a think Or, Just a little. So why not Fishy?! Hmm

 

[Dan]

Feeling pain is based on perception, I can't truly define it, nor do I have to choose. I feel pain differently than you do, and I'm most certain a fish feels pain differently as well.

My arguments stand strong despite the rudimentary approach on the opposing side. "because I said so" is no longer accepted by logicians as a cogent argumentative stance.

You can't stand on both sides of the wall and say: "fish feel pain and even if they don't they still feel pain"... One must define "pain" as either conscious or unconscious. I gave very solid points that have yet to be touched. If a fish feels pain consciously then that is one thing; if a fish feels pain but does not consciously know that it feels pain, that is another. If a fish feels pain but forgets said pain--we have yet another outcome. You can't claim all to be true! "Fish feel pain, end of story" is not a very interesting or intriguing thing to post.

The truth is that we may never really know; but it is still relevant to study and ponder about. Not wanting to participate in the pondering does no one any good. Information is meant to be pondered.

 

[Varine]

Lol ^
Congratulations, you have made it impossible to reason with you.

I think Cheshire has some competition.

 

[Accname]

Nope. When firecat posts something its pretty easy to reason with him. He just wont accept your reasons and continue with stupidity.

 

[tom_mai78101]

We just need to find his gray area when he reasons, so we can reason back, snappy!

 

[Blackveiled2]

My arguments stand strong despite the rudimentary approach on the opposing side. "because I said so" is no longer accepted by logicians as a cogent argumentative stance.

You can't stand on both sides of the wall and say: "fish feel pain and even if they don't they still feel pain"... One must define "pain" as either conscious or unconscious. I gave very solid points that have yet to be touched. If a fish feels pain consciously then that is one thing; if a fish feels pain but does not consciously know that it feels pain, that is another. If a fish feels pain but forgets said pain--we have yet another outcome. You can't claim all to be true! "Fish feel pain, end of story" is not a very interesting or intriguing thing to post.

The truth is that we may never really know; but it is still relevant to study and ponder about. Not wanting to participate in the pondering does no one any good. Information is meant to be pondered.

Well, to put it simply I meant the same thing as you then. I know I can feel pain, I assume you can feel pain aswell since you recognize it as a function of the body. It is a rarity, but some people cannot (and pain isnt limited to just the "ow" factor but positive aswell. But can I tell you a fish feels pain? Maybe. I can attempt to give numerous facts and observations through science and study. But Ill never know aince I am not a fish.

I wasnt trying to throw you off, but thats my fault for not being clear and concise. However, I am going to pull the asshole move you see a lot and say that I never said I was correct. Great defense right??? No, but itll probably involve another post attempting to go into detail that we really cant prove, no matter what evidence we provide.

Also as for clarification reasons, when I say I feel pain differently than you and a fish feels pain differently than you, I am talking about the severity. Like I may feel pain differently because I had a layer of skin removed and now that area is a lot more sensitive to pain than it previously was. And to be honest, I dont really care if a fish feels pain or not, and I dont feel the need to ponder. Maybe I would feel as if I should if I could actually have some gain out of it (such as be able to create new innovations) which served a viable purpose to everyday life, but I don't see any reason to.

But hey, fuck it maybe a fish doesnt feel pain. I didnt come here for a debate on something I really don't know, but this thread is really making me feel like I pinched a nerve.

P.S. Who is cheshire and why am I being compared? I know the way I was wording things vaguely and thats my fault, but there was also some intention in there because it probably made you think about it. And dont take me for a fool, you are able to reason with me. When Dan said we really do not know, I was in agreement with his response. So, there isn't really a trick to reasoning with me. You probably didnt understand my explanations...but I don't understand why a fish would or wouldnt feel pain, unless its just mot a function of their brain (which i dont know) or if they even have nerves. As for the nerves, I could probably find them if I knew the anatomy of a fish, or cared to check. But I am also not interested in researching every fish seeing if they have nerves. Enough with the rambling from me.

We have different receptors for pain in our body. Well, you might scream of pain " Just of a needle stick" lol But others might not feel a think Or, Just a little. So why not Fishy?! Hmm

I don't know much about the anatomy and physiology of fish, but as for humans I can safely say most of us have a functioning nervous system. As for each individual person we can say they feel pain differently because they have a different emotional response. I couldnt tell you if the pain (in this scenario we have the same thing happening to us) that I had with a needle stick was more severe than yours. But I can determine whether the pain was emotionally more painful for you depending on your response. I have given and received a lot of needle sticks (18GA needles) and can definitelysay that we react differently.

As for fish, I couldnt tell you either. For one I dont know the anatomy or physiology of a fish, whether their brain is actually capable of a pain stimuli, or if they even have the required nerves to feel pain. I care about if they even have an emotional response aswell. If fish react to pain, thats one thing but if they react differently than a previous encounter or show fear towards whatever inflicted the pain then I can safely assume they feel pain. However, be wary there are many different species of fish so different types of fish need to be studied before they can say that fish do or do not feel pain.

Anyways your comment was kinda odd since you say that the body has different receptors for pain. Im not sure, but I dont think so. You definitely have more nerves though. And we may feel pain, but just because we do does not mean it is safe to assume any other animals do (you can usually tell if they can lol). And Im not bashing you or anything. I may do some research on the nervous system if I have time so I can understand more about how it works.

 

[Varine]

You're not medically trained, so I'm not inclined to trust your information pertaining to the concept of medical issues. Even with fish. And pain isn't an emotion.

 

[Blackveiled2]

,

You're not medically trained, so I'm not inclined to trust your information pertaining to the concept of medical issues. Even with fish. And pain isn't an emotion.

You are right. Pain isnt an emotion. But you have an emotional response to pain right?

 

[Varine]

No. You have an emotional response to the cause of the pain. The two are completely segregated, and for the most part emotions can be completely ignored because it's mostly annoying bullshit that has absolutely no relevance to whether or not any kind of living organism has the capacity to actually feel pain. There is a difference between a response to external stimulation and actual feeling of that stimulation. And a response to the pain is not emotional either. You wince more than me because it hurts you more than me, likely due a large range of factors, the least of which, if even included, would be your emotional response to it, and primarily because of the positioning of your nerves and the sensitivity to the various receptors, which varies significantly based on another large range of variables, in which emotions might be included, but are ultimately not very important because it doesn't really matter whether or not the needle hurts you more or less than me or anyone else, the point is it hurts you and me and everyone else, but apparently not fish.