Discussion: Map Protection: Yes? No? Why?

[SFilip]

> If someone really wants to know how a trigger's done, they can just come here like I did
Exactly.

> Someone really wants to update a map that's been out of circulation and is protected, and that the author has stopped working on.
Well...he can always ask the author for the unprotected version. Or he can make a similar map with the same concept.
Remember: one can never change your map the way you can.

Either way you people should use Vexorian's optimizer on your maps. No, its not a map protection utility, its used for map/code optimization...and there is the option to leave the map unprotected (and yet still small and efficient) with it.

 

[Xorifelse]

Non of you people here lived in the dark ages of mapping. maybe just 1 or 2.
At that time, you had like 15 actions you could do. 5 conditions and no more.
Back then, there was no such thing as a "protector".

You wanna know what happened to your maps then?
People opened it, changed credits, improved version, Uploaded it.

You think people change? quick answer, NO. not until they are 17 > years old.
*This is what i think what people are using it for.
40% of the warcraft cummunity are immature and WILL DO the same.
50% Copy paste triggers into there own map. and or make there own changes to your map (removed credits).
10% only uses it to learn from it. / or uses triggers and give credits.

That 10% may be even less, and its still NOTHING compare to those stealers.

If people REALLY wanna learn, they open up WE and start experimenting.
Just as i did, and there are comunitys like this who can help you with it.

^- Those people are the real mappers.

People who post like, "PLEASE MAKE A TRIGGER FOR ME!" will never make it, and will NEVER give credit where it is due. They will only steal/leech from you.
If this sounds offending, remove it and no harm is done.
But this is the truth and you know it.

 

[Tonks]

That 10% is the part that matters. Honestly, I wouldn't care if someone took my map and called it theirs. It's just a map.
I've been playing warcraft since the beta testing versions. I signed up when they called for public testers for the Wc3 Battle.Net, and I got a free CD-Key from it. I've been making maps since about a year after that.
Never once have I seen a map of mine taken, I've only seen the maps "Murder at the Sleeping Town" and "Murder at the City" which were based off of my Murder at the Mansion, and they're good maps.
I've made over 15 maps. I never sign them. I've never seen anyone sign mine as theirs.
Simple as this; it happens on a rare occasion, but it doesn't really matter. The 10% that wants to learn from it, should. The 90% that just want a quick fix, they'll probably get it anyway.
And yea, everyone should use Vex's to make their map smaller.

 

[Akatsuki]

I learned a lot from opening a unprotected map in worldedit and that's what I did to first learn to trigger. But because I never play a lot of new custom maps I have a small colletion of custom maps and only the bad ones are not protected.(The custom heros are good but triggering was not really good) The rest I have to play around in worldedit because to tell the truth I didn't even know there was a thehelper.net so I really didnt' have another place to learn. So I'm one of the >10% people who want to learn triggering and good hero making.

 

[emjlr3]

i dont protect my maps, I optimize my maps

it makes my triggers faster, removes any of the few bjs I use, and reduces the size/load time dramatically

only ppl who know JASS could steal anything from my maps,and ppl who do know JASS could make anything that I do anyway, so it does not really matter

in the long run, stealing from others does nothing, map optimizing can help this, but definitively not remove it, but if it makes you feel good, then do it

if you really want to learn, come here and post, we have the resources to answer 99% of any questions asked

learning is better then copying anyway, or hadn't you heard?

and in anycase, ask anyone who wanted to know how I did something from a map...I am sure they know how to do it now

 

[InfectedWithDrew]

I think that you should protect a map if it is:
*Unfinished
*Really good, and you don't want anyone changing it and taking credit
*Finished, balanced, and no longer in need of updates.

I think that you should leave a map unprotected if it is:
*An example for some sort of code
*A template
*In need of nerfing, and you want other people to do it for you.
*It's completed, but you want to let people learn from it.
*A porn map, gotta get that porn out!

I protect my maps. But it's only because I never made a map that fits under the reasons for leaving it I put above.

 

[g1real]

I think that you should protect a map if it is:
*Unfinished
*Really good, and you don't want anyone changing it and taking credit
*Finished, balanced, and no longer in need of updates.

So like, you always want the map to be protected? XD

 

[Hero]

I say maps should not be protected at all.

Why you ask simple..

1. We learn from others...It's the same way in every day life
2. Reading and exploring something for yourself helps you learn.
3. It will make life easier to all if you could learn on your own.

To all the "Cheaters" like SFilip said about the Save/Load codes...yes but a cheater gets NO where in life. A cheater always fails. A cheater never makes it in the end. Cheating is copying something. When you cheat you are only cheating yourself from learning and understanding something. Map protection prevents cheaters and copiers but what if there was no such thing as map protection...then we would probably not have cheaters copying anything because that person would have learned. Yes I thought of cheating many times in life...everyone does..the problem is submitting yourself to it. Just think about this..."What am I ever gonna get out of this?" "How does this help me...I mean in the shorter run of life it does...But what if I happens again? What will I do then?" "Did I learn anything from cheating?" These are questions you must constantly ask yourself...cheating gets you no-where..

Map Protection Gets Noobs Nowhere

Everyone here IS a Noob. No one knows every single thing about life or warcraft or anything...as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as a "Pro". A pro is perfect at something? No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. We all mess-up every once and a while? Right? Sure you do everyone does? No need to be ashamed..I am a member of this site to learn as much as possible I live to learn as much about myself and others as I can..we all do...some just don't notice it...And I hope if you took the time to read this you learned something yourself..doing something on your own effort satisfies you far more than cheating...


I hope you read my super long post...and I hope you learned more about me and why I think map protection is not good..

-Hero

 

[Thanatos_820]

Good explaination of why there should be no map protection (Except optimizing the maps, which should stay). I cheated at first (Not with maps) with Warcraft 3 Campaigns, but I learned from mistakes that have been made from the past. Well, I'm a cheater no more and never will be a map stealer/hacker (Though I never was a map stealer/hacker). Have you guys played Hokage Ninja or Genetic Mutation? Those games have the most typos I've ever seen in my life (Genetic Mutation is the worst)! Yeah, well people can't spell defense correctly and spell it "defence", but that's no biggy. When is says something not English, it really needs to be fixed. I don't like maps that are protected and have severe typos and inbalances in the game (Makes me not play that map ever again).

 

[InfectedWithDrew]

I like to open maps and use them as references, but I don't think that you shouldn't have the right to protect your work if you want. It's a personal choice, and whatever you choose is what's right for you.

 

[Tonks]

Well, another thing is that most new mappers don't have the faintest idea that a forum like this exists. I know I didn't know anything like this existed for the time it took me to make a majority of my maps.
Hell, for a while I was just a guest on WeT, checking those out, and then I realized, "Whoa, there's a forum."
Sure it's a personal choice, but it's also an ethical choice.

 

[risen_jihad]

Map protection has its positives and negatives, obviously. Sure we are always worried about "that noob that has to ruin it." However there are enough deprotection methods that allows any noob who can use google to figure out how to deprotect. Protecting maps is...well...situational. If you have a map that has many high end and complicated triggers, it might be better left unprotected to learn. I mean worst case scenario you convert all the triggers to jass, and anyone that cannot logically follow if or loops statements won't be able to understand it.

 

[Thanatos_820]

There are some existing deprotectors from ZoiD and Nathanemex or whatever his name is. But Secure Gamers has several methods of teaching how to deprotect maps, recover listfiles which its traces were eliminated, hacking public DotA games, and all that. All of the Admins and Mods over at Secure Gamers are stalwart hackers. I really don't like protection but I didn't say I want it out for good. Secure Gamers goes too far, and I don't like that.

 

[Akatsuki]

I hate people who takes maps and call them their own but most maps like that die out pretty quickly. And then the forum for that map starts going crazy and other stuff that are pretty useless. Most people who takes maps and give themselves credit for it are people who can't edit maps at all. So they are much worse then it used to be and the map just dies out. I never seen a map where people steal it and make it better. But I don't play much custom maps so I really wouldn't know.

 

[risen_jihad]

There are generally 30-40 staple maps generally that are played on ladder custom games. Other ones pop up on the list, but there are always given maps that you can find on the list of custom games if you sit and watch for about 30 minutes. Most of these maps already have communities and forums for the game itself, which can help to prevent "noobs from stealing credit." Many of the mainstream maps that have sufficient support, will have some backup if the creator really wants it.

 

[Tonks]

There are some existing deprotectors from ZoiD and Nathanemex or whatever his name is. But Secure Gamers has several methods of teaching how to deprotect maps, recover listfiles which its traces were eliminated, hacking public DotA games, and all that. All of the Admins and Mods over at Secure Gamers are stalwart hackers. I really don't like protection but I didn't say I want it out for good. Secure Gamers goes too far, and I don't like that.

Though, compared to a few people I know, SG seems almost noobish. I have a couple friends who are truly dedicated to hacking Blizzard games, and they have done so for every single game. Though, rather than do what SG and tDRp do - releasing their hacks and programs publicly - they keep their hacks to themselves and their close friends. As a result, they can hack accounts, they created a program to unprotect maps that effectively restores the GUI triggers, they can maphack, they can disconnect the host in the wait area (before the game).
Right now I could have pretty much anything done in a blizzard game, but I don't like hacking, it's lame and takes the fun out of it. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop people, it just means that I've made a personal decision not to.

Which brings me to my point; I'm against protecting maps. It takes the fun out of it, it makes it a contest, rather than a game. It encourages an elitist attitude, and it cripples the new mapper generation's learning process.
Does this mean that I'm going to go out and spam messages, harrassing people that protect their maps? No, I simply won't agree with them.

It's just amazing that can be done if you have the experience. If you make a good enough map, it will be unprotected, regardless of what you use. The entire process (excluding Vexorian's Map Optimizer) is pointless.

 

[Akatsuki]

I thought that unprotecting would make the triggers JASS and at the moment impossible to restore back to GUI. Man all the advance triggers I can look at. But still I don't feel right if I took something from a map when the guy spend hours on it.

 

[Tonks]

I thought that unprotecting would make the triggers JASS and at the moment impossible to restore back to GUI.

For most people, yes, it is impossible. They created a component for the program that reads JASS lines and creates GUI lines to match the function.
In some cases they still have to read some JASS, but 80% of the time it converts.

But, as this has no logical good-willed use for the general public, I've never convinced them to release that component. I guess they have the same logic too.

But still I don't feel right if I took something from a map when the guy spend hours on it.

You're one of the dying kind of Wc3 player; the kind with ethics. That's one of the main reasons I like this forum, 95% of the people on here are good-natured and have the right mind about ethics.

 

[hi_im_bob]

Whenever I am confused about things, I go to the helper fourm, seach what I am confused about. Then if nothing comes up I try and remember if I have seen is before in a map I have played and if I am lucky the person helps me because their map is unprotected.

 

[Akatsuki]

Also now that I found thehelp.net forums I'm no longer in a dead end in somethings in worldedit because I see people get stuck on something and makes a topic about it. Then a few hours later they get an answer for it right away. But if I were to release a map protected. That would be because of someone who worked on the map requested protected. But at my current level of skill on worldedit I'll be surprise if I can have a map good enough to be played on battlenet.