Discussion: Map Protection: Yes? No? Why?

[g1real]

My last off-topic post on this (probably).

My opinion on hacking is quite fishy, generally I don't like hackers. I've played some first person shooters when I saw a hacker that just messed the game right up, and then I was like "I'm going to beat him with the normal gameplay". Most of the times this failed, but sometimes I can feel the taste of owning... Making the hacker quit the game because he's losing WITH hacks.

Hacking or cheating, the same for me, only hackers are generally frustated people and cheaters are just sad.

I have nothing against you Tonks, nor am i saying you're frustated. If I ever get in touch with being hacked (Lucky me, I never have.), then I will go into the hacking bizz myself, I will learn how to hack, and how to defend against it. So I can counter hackers.

I have a couple friends who are truly dedicated to hacking Blizzard games, and they have done so for every single game.

I wonder how you found those friends =), my friend-base is large and I don't have anyone who's really into the hacking bizz, or generally, I have, but they're not using it for their own fun/good. They use it to help people.

There are 3 styles of hacking.
- The lame hacker, fucks the game up and lames other ppl.
- The good hacker, only hacks for good purposes.
- The neutral hacker, will hack only if people bug him, so he can kinda do everything he wants in a game.

Again, tonks, I don't have anything to you ^^. I was just stating a bit how much I dislike hacking. It's devils spawn, and even if you're a good hacker, you wont get as close as friends that haven't hacked and are being very nice to me.

--I've had this situation--
- I joined a game, then suddenly banlist autopasted a message (I kinda pasted, but I wanted to paste something else) and it showed about a guy who was banlisted, then suddenly, the host kicked me, why? Because he thinks BL is against the ToS. If that was so, I can't see it anywhere. I asked the guy to point me out where, he squelched me after that whisper. LOSER!
- I joined a game in a FPS, Ren Alert. A conversion for C&C Renegade, (it has like a small vast community, 3 servers hosting). Then suddenly, Aircraftkiller, the maker of the mod, and admin of the server (He was respected by some idiots...) banned me, for cheating. Why? Because somehow "I" placed mines in the war factory, at the place where vehicles spawned that you bought. The vehicle blew up, someone said I did because they saw me with a mine layer near there. And they accused me of cheating. I could refer to the link, but I don't feel much up for that. In the end (currently) aircraftf***er left the team, and everyone saw that he was a lamer and aggressive guy. I stated my points in a topic after that ban, 2 people protected me, the rest said I was a noob (I didn't "own" enough). Aircraftkiller refused to listen to me, and was hardheaded. LOSER

[/OFFTOPIC]

Yes, I love ranting.

 

[risen_jihad]

There is a slight difference between map protecting and wallhacking in a fps >_>

And most "hacks" are considered negative, and very rarely result in any sort of positive result. Map "protecting" is actually the result of destroying/corrupting data files...

 

[Tonks]

Kakolukia, you seem to be under the impression that I hack. I do not in any way support it, I'm fairly avidly against it. Just because I have friends that do it, doesn't mean that I do.
And no, they aren't the kind of people that just hack to fuck with games.

- I joined a game, then suddenly banlist autopasted a message (I kinda pasted, but I wanted to paste something else) and it showed about a guy who was banlisted, then suddenly, the host kicked me, why? Because he thinks BL is against the ToS. If that was so, I can't see it anywhere. I asked the guy to point me out where, he squelched me after that whisper. LOSER!

It actually is against the ToS, though he probably thought he was BSing you.
It's a 3rd party program. 3rd party programs are against the tos.

 

[Amfidamant]

Just some thoughts of mine, don't read this if you just want my opinion, scroll down.

I currently protect most of my maps?
Well, first of all, I'm not very expierenced yet and I haven't made any "Oh so uber cool" map that everyone would play. Althrough I am working on a map that, hopefully, will rise above the "there is such map, but it's not played" level, also, teh fact that I have actually finished like what... 3 or 4 maps?
Also, someone pointed that puting credits in the map may get you kicked etc. Well, I don't care. I've seen battle.net, and I don't play there anymore. I found my place in a friendly server that atleast manages to understand and listen to you. Of course, even there is a group of players I'd call... lower level. Not an insulting way, it's just how they act. Imagine:
On server, there's usually 70-100 people. most of them friendly and nice. Then, there is like 5-10% of those "lower levels". They come swearing shouting, yelling until admin kicks them. They just re-connect with other account. Admin ip-bans them. They come with another account AND changed IP. They would ban whole ISP, but then another group players woud also get banned for nothing, so admins usually give up after few bans.

Luckily, those lower levels seem to be active only when a teenager or younger can be - from 12 or 14 till 20 o'clock, sometimes later.

Now, there's also a fact, that like 90% of those "lower levels" can actually host games, and they usually are friends with eachother, while automatically kicking anyone without any reason (well, it's their right, no complaint), and when they DO take you in, what they do is just keep calling you noob/idiot etc., (they woukld probably call you imbecile or worse, only if they knew what does it mean) althrough they themselves usually are being "owned" by someone else. That brings a whole Flame avalanche towards the better player, resulting with a permament ban on their banlist.

Also, these people are usually too flat-headed to understand how to work with WE and even more, most of them are the ones who got cracked versions of Warcraft, thus making it not really possible to open WE.
In this way, map protection is kind of useless in teh server I play. Almost. I'll tell you later the reasons why it IS usefull.

Anyway, the other 90% makes good players, even more, some of them are good mapmakers that wan't to learn a lot of stuff, those who don't ruin the game and get into it. Some of those people make their own maps and we all gladly beta-test it, the whole server is real fun with DotA taking up only 20% of games, and all other games ranging from meele to town builders. And when people see you giving advices on mapmaking, they usually are not afraid to ask you, to get into private channel and start a whole discussion.

Hell, I don't want to brag, but I'm the most advanced map maker in that Community! And people are always nice and the yalways want to learn. Of course, sometimes they're too lazy to try everything themselves and as kstep-by-step instructions on everything. So I usually make them "Map Templates" on what kind of map they want and send them. Who know, maybe one day you will see a pearl in the ashes!


Now, back to the topic, in the begining of map-making I was protecting all of my maps - no matter, good or bad, I still did it.
Why?
Several reasons:
-I thought it's cool to make other people not be able to open your maps
-I thought all the "good" mapmakers do that
-I was afraid of those so-called map stealers
-I didn't understand the downsides of "protecting"

Now, I look into map protecting diffirently. I currently protect a map only when I am still working on it.

When I will finish it, I don't know, I *might* protect it, but only for teh reason Sfilip said - After all, my map is RPG, and if peopel would trick the save/load code... not good.

Still, I would gladly place my e-mail in information, so those who want to test my map would be free to ask it and I would gladly send it, maybe without the save/load code, just mentioning it.

This way, even a stolen map wouldn't mean anything

Why? Well, A guy comes to the mnap and wants to load the hero. It doesn't. Oh well, too bad, he won't play this map, as he will understand it is a rip-off.

Basically, I don't want my work to be stolen. Why?
Becuase I put my time into the map.
For a small, but honorable mentioning of me, I would be glad to give away my map and give tips how to change it into something someone wants.


Maybe not very on-topic, but just some random thoughs of mine.

 

[DDRtists]

I didn't read any other posts, but I'll post my opinions on ALL SCRIPTS OR MAPS I make:

I will ALWAYS release my score/map/thing unprotected, or in the case of a program or script, open source. I like to make things people can learn from, and think that protecting your thing ( with the exception of large games and what not ) just hurts the community more. The way I do it, if you want to steal my stuff, go right ahead. Bath in your fake accomplishments, ask me if I care. I don't do things to get popular, I do it because I like it. Deep down, the person that steals things knows they are noob, and it will never feel even half as good as if you really made the whole thing.

The end.

 

[Tonks]

I didn't read any other posts, but I'll post my opinions on ALL SCRIPTS OR MAPS I make:

I will ALWAYS release my score/map/thing unprotected, or in the case of a program or script, open source. I like to make things people can learn from, and think that protecting your thing ( with the exception of large games and what not ) just hurts the community more. The way I do it, if you want to steal my stuff, go right ahead. Bath in your fake accomplishments, ask me if I care. I don't do things to get popular, I do it because I like it. Deep down, the person that steals things knows they are noob, and it will never feel even half as good as if you really made the whole thing.

The end.

Damn straight, someone after my own heart

 

[crystalguard]

I didn't read any other posts, but I'll post my opinions on ALL SCRIPTS OR MAPS I make:

I will ALWAYS release my score/map/thing unprotected, or in the case of a program or script, open source. I like to make things people can learn from, and think that protecting your thing ( with the exception of large games and what not ) just hurts the community more. The way I do it, if you want to steal my stuff, go right ahead. Bath in your fake accomplishments, ask me if I care. I don't do things to get popular, I do it because I like it. Deep down, the person that steals things knows they are noob, and it will never feel even half as good as if you really made the whole thing.

The end.

wow, thats deep... jk, but anyway i'd have to say i agree 210% with you, mainly because i don't mind people looking at, copying, or editing my maps mainly because of:

Deep down, the person that steals things knows they are noob

and anyway, for anyone who takes and/or remakes/copys/editis my map, after i figure this out, i'll just go and releace another map two times better. so in DDRtist words :

if you want to steal my stuff, go right ahead

I just dont care about it, cuz they know their nowhere as good as me if they take my map (lets just say tourture from the inside)

 

[Demi666]

yes map protection is good but it shud be more tutorials maps and more nice ppl like ace+pineapple

 

[Tonks]

yes map protection is good but it shud be more tutorials maps and more nice ppl like ace+pineapple

How is it good? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know your logic for that statement.

 

[Miz]

Well that maybe true but protection is needed for more popular games lets say Island D you can change yacapo names and make there own but

Tonks you do have a point if people know you made the game then there shouldn't be a probelm.

Curse you Tonks you made me Confused!!!!!
Thats it I'm sending you to cuba!!!
lol sry about that

but yes I could agree with both sides but if it was my game and I work hard on it then I would protect it or it would most likey become something like ... LOAP with 3000 verisons

 

[Demi666]

its good cuz if no1 wpuld protect it would be alot of stealing
no1 wants another name on their map..

 

[Tonks]

its good cuz if no1 wpuld protect it would be alot of stealing
no1 wants another name on their map..

I don't put my name on my maps. Notice none of them have been stolen.
Oddly enough, over 60% of the maps out there aren't protected, but people still don't steal them. Even a lot of the good maps aren't protected.
Sure, LoaP has been edited left and right until it's just a map riddled with cheats, but that's one of only a few maps that this has happened to.

Again; does it really matter that much?

 

[SFilip]

> does it really matter that much?
Well...
If I was to make an actual program I'd most likely release it open source.
I wouldn't mind other programmers learning, editing it or anything...in fact it would make me happy to know that someone did so.

But in case of mapping I would mind if a 12-year-old was to edit something which for instance took a month of my time just so that he could add a cheat and his nickname on it. And the worst thing is that people who figure out what the cheat is would host his version instead, resulting in the ripoff being more popular than the original. So I in fact lost a month which could've been spent on making a software product that would perhaps even have a purpose in the end.
Of course this is not likely to happen but I'd still rest assured if I had my map protected.

BTW I am aware this is the fourth time I'm giving the same overall response to this topic

 

[martix]

There is no easy and straight-forward answer to that...
Well, I for one am kinda against protecting. If you put your mind and will to it, you will be able to do whatever you want with every map.
It depends on where you look at it. If you think of how it is on each side:
1. You are the player - you like the map, you have seen a cool feature, you want to check how its done. You try to open the map - its protected.
a) The map maker is some megalomaniac kiddie, who won't give you any chance.
b) SFilip-type - what do you think are your chances of him giving you - a random gamer(for all he knows an 12-yrs old script kiddie) an unprotected version?

2. You are the map maker - you have spent hours upon hours of making this map and you don't want to see it ruined by that same 12-yrs old script kiddie.
a) who cares... let them play it, the got forums and stuff - go ask there, make it themselves.
b) SFilip - how would you know who to trust or not, your map might as well appear the next day in a dozen diffrent crappy versions.


ANYWAY! Let me clarify what makes a good map - SUPPORT baby - the magic word! Keep fixing bugs, adding improvements, releasing new versions. This will keep you one step ahead of any ungrateful gamers with a little know-how of editing.
And idea stealing? Don't be ridiculous, there is no such thing. If you are really a creative person, then you would always have something fresh and new, something that would beat the competition, make your map unique. Something you could develop and improve. No one can think like you, so rest assured if your map is good, then it will be played, not some ripoff.

Bah... thats from me. I'm for optimizing and generally against protecting.

 

[Atreides]

I agree with SFilip, in that if you spend time on something, you don't want to run the risk of someone releasing a crappy rigged version, which is hosted by people that want to abuse the rigged parts, and avoided by everyone else. Which makes it that much harder for you to get the right map played again. Yeah, I know I"m just repeating what people have said...but its what I believe.

 

[Chocobo]

Protected vs Unprotected - Blizzard's Words

To who uses the World Editor, here some words from Blizzard if you never read those :

Welcome to the Warcraft III World Editor​

The editor is a powerful tool that allows users to manipulate every aspect of the Warcraft III game. In order to familiarize yourself with the functionality of the editor, we strongly recommand that you load up an existing map as a point of reference.

Quite nice to who never read those words...

 

[Mahucharn]

I agree with blizzard on that but I never did read it so I had to vote no.

 

[Corleone]

Sure, you should open some existing map. Best one's are the scenario's made by Blizzard. Custom maps should be protected if they're complicated and/or original, so that people wouldn't steal the triggers and such.

 

[risen_jihad]

Sure, you should open some existing map. Best one's are the scenario's made by Blizzard. Custom maps should be protected if they're complicated and/or original, so that people wouldn't steal the triggers and such.

But if they are newer maps, people might not have references in order to the triggering, so woulnd't it be that much more important to leave unprotected so that they can learn

 

[Frozenhelfir]

It all depends on how you interpret those words. Blizzard says to use it as a reference, but most of the people don't. Most people who are opening a custom map are trying to edit it for their own gain. They degrade the quality of someone's hard work. I'll make this short.

I think maps should be protected to preserve the overall quality and hard work of the map creator. If someone really wants a reference, they can come to a place like this. There is a very slim chance that a map maker can't get a question answered here.

Blizzard maps are not protected, so use them as reference. Most "referencing" on a custom map is really noob edits. Not always, but most of the time.