Discussion: Map Protection: Yes? No? Why?

[Tonks]

Admins, if you feel this really can't happen, then go ahead and delete it. But I would like to give everyone a chance to have a civilized discussion about this.

This is more directly tied with Map Making, but as there's no "World Editor Discussion" forum, I'll post this here. Move it as necessary.

I really want to discuss the "Yes and No's" of Map Protection. I want to hear everyone's opinion on it, and why they believe that.
Now, if we're all mature enough, we can have a nice, informative discussion about this. However, if this just turns into a "Omfg you're an idiot you're wrong" fight, I'll simply close it.
I do not want anyone to argue. I want you to discuss, feel free to try to persuade people to your opinion. But do NOT flame, by any means.

To start it off, I'll state my beliefs about it.
I, personally, do not protect my maps. I (somewhat) understand why others would want to do so, but I don't think it's a good idea.

-It limits new mapmakers' learning experiences.
-There is no (in my opinion) good reason for it.

Sure, you can say that it stops 'noobs' from stealing your map, or editing it and leaving your name on it. But, in all honesty, is that really such a terrible thing?
I know that when I was first learning to map, I took my favorite maps and edited them. I even tried releasing my edited versions. But, as my mapping skills were very limited at that time, I usually just decreased the maps' quality. Editing those maps, however, did have a positive impact. It helped me learn, I became familiar with the editor. Now, I leave my maps unprotected and unsigned, because I feel that I am a worthy mapper, and that I got there (initially) by editing maps and making small projects.
Now, if everyone protected their maps, I never would have learned.

I feel that a lot of mappers protect their maps because they have an elitist feeling, that they're better than the new mappers.
There's also the factor that a lot of mappers want to be 'semi-famous' on warcraft. That's the reason that Limiter always so avidly protects his maps and his triggers from less-experienced mappers; he wants to be better than them and he wants to be famous on this game.

Anyways. Your opinions, please.

Remember, we're trying to show that we can have a civilized discussion about a touchy and controversial subject. Try to remain mature.

 

[Thanatos_820]

I say I don't like protection. Why?

1. I'm a nosey kid, I like viewing everything so I can learn.
2. Protection may screw up your map if you forget to make a copy.
3. Notepad Protection adds up more space to maps (Vexorian's is okay).
4. I want to learn more about advanced GUI and basic JASS.
5. I want to fix up things but not release it in public.

Some sound stupid, but who cares ? I'm nosey, but why protection?!? Why?!? I love Naruto maps but they're protected (Hokage Ninja is the worst has the most typos that any other Naruto game). Stupid typos can't be fixed because it's protected which bugs me.

I don't protect any of my maps (If I ever made any). I'm a person who wants people to learn. I'd use Vexorian's if the map was too big that is, that;s the only protection I'd use.

 

[Tonks]

The only case in which I will 'protect' a map, is when I need to use the Map Optimizer to make it smaller. If I do so, I leave my email address on the map offering the un-optimized version to anyone who asks.

And yea, maps can be improved by people who edit them other than the author. It's not all negative.

 

[chovynz]

My answer is yes and no. Depends on the map, on the potential of the map, the location of the map and some others which I can't think of right now.

Example: (you can skip this bit if you just want to know my opinions. This sets out why my opinions are why they are.)
I play alot of custom games on Bnet. Specifically (for this discussion) Vampirism. I would have prefered that the auther protect his maps. Why? Because I now have over 30 versions of vampirism that have been nerfed, edited, changed, added to or taken from but mostly just nerfed somehow. The feeling I get from these maps is that the people who "edited" them ARE players while noobs at map making, got in a tizz because a "Pro" player came along and beat them. So they took the map and gave themselves an advantage. They have no sense of game balance. This of course makes a snowball effect, because suddenly the losing side is now the ultimate winner...so some other sore loser goes and changes the map to give HIM an advantage.

Briefly here is the Vampirism Gameplay so those of you who don't know about it can relate. 12 players, 10 human, 2-3 vamps (depending on version). Humans have blink, can build income and towers and can eventually make heros. Humans use wood to make things. So they build huts which train workers to harvest wood from the trees. Trees and cliffs are the boundaries for the base areas and are 'indestructible'. Humans start out with one peasant each. If a peasant dies he loses all his built stuff and income and turns into a vamp. Humans objective is to kill all vamps.

Vamps have "vampiric skills" depending on version. The better versions give the vamps some form of healing, lightening, traps, windwalk and far sight. Vamps get and use gold for each kill including towers and buildings. Vamps objective is to turn all humans into vamps.

Both humans and Vamps can Tome up. Humans can blink every sec to a limited range away. Vamps must walk everywhere and can't go through trees.

Here are the things I've seen nerfed or changed (in no particular order or version - some are in, some are not):

For the human side:
Terrain changed so vamps can't enter base.
Terrain changed so vamps can't reach a certain place (i.e safe spot for the peasant totally innaccessable by vamps - i.e live forever)
Innaccessible shops for humans but not vamps (humans have blink)
Cliffs added to base areas.
Uber Towers added (like 2k damage per half second)
Vamps Farsight removed
Vamps Lightening removed
Vamps Healing removed.
Vamp shop items deleted or changed
Humans allowed to buy from vamp shop
Tree Worker pathing removed or reduced to miniscule
Vamps abilites changed to ones that require upgrades. But how can the vamp upgrade? Can't build.
Healing changed so can't cast on self.

For the vamp side:
Uber Items added (things that spoil the balance)
Death & Decay ability added (kills trees - no place safe for humans - vamps can come from any angle - impossible to defend against - humans always lose - still has reference to Crypt Lord in it.)
Healing changed to Chain healing and can jump map wide.
Damage modified (usually stronger and faster)
Windwalk can go through units.
Max Lightening level increased + 13
Impale added (although this actually works well in some maps)
Fusion (join two vamps together to become one larger stronger vamp with combined exp and attributes - nice in theory..doesn't work well in practise.)

Particularly bad things that have been added is spawnable units WITHOUT REMOVING MEMORY LEAKS. I've had numerous games spoiled because of server spilts, crashes, people dropped, laggage, you name it. All because some noob player doesn't want anything other than to cheat.

The difficulty is you can't tell if it's a nerfed version until you're actually playing it because the preview image is just the name vampirisim on a red background. So all you have to judge it by is the version number.
There are some versions which have been improved by the changes but those instances are few and far between because they also have been spoiled by other changes. I think in Vampirism's case it would have saved the game. Now its just a hodgepodge of hacks and nerfs. I still play it because I can recognise good versions now just by the version number rolleyes: usually) and the gameplay is actually very good if you get a good game.

In my opinion, I think games that are hosted online at Bnet should be memory leak checked, optimized, and protected. Maybe someday, someone will come up with an auto CheckOptProt that automatically does this to all maps played on Bnet.

However, I think that if someone is serious about map making they (like me, Tonks and many others) would like to learn from other peoples work. And so they will go looking. And they will find when they look with their whole heart. Eventually they will make their way to one of the numerous WC3 modding sites. So I think that any website that hosts maps should have open copies for that very reason - so that others can learn from it.

But then of course, you risk them taking that open map and modifiying it. This is where my idealism falls apart because it relies on the peoples own conscience about what to do with this new found map and knowledge. All it takes is one person to "steal" a map and spread it...

I know for me when we eventually release Project: Orbitos we will be optimizing and protecting it for BNet versions. We'll include as much info as possible so that people can contact us. But we will make it available and open to TheHelper. So that people who wish too, can download and see all our green comments.

I'm a great believer in opensource so I don't take my comments lightly. I think its sad that you cannot trust many people today.

It's funny. Ask me the same question about a month ago it'd probably would've been against protection. Recently though, I have been so disappionted and disallusioned by the people on Bnet, sometimes I think weeding my garden would be more fun that playing on Bnet. So because of the silliness and the noobism I say yes. Protect your maps.

 

[g1real]

Map protecting? I would do that only if I notice I get too many noob edits around (which proves my map is very good... or very bad).


Why not?

- Other people can learn from your maps and actually practice around.
- People can use my map as a base for their own, saving them time, releasing more quality maps (if mine is...)

Why would I protect?

-No noob edits.
-No mapstealing.
-No ideastealing.


I got more reasons but... they come to the same.
I would only protect maps (in a small way, no triggers...) if someone would steal it. I would just protect the next version(s)... My final will ALWAYS be protected probably.

 

[Thanatos_820]

The only case in which I will 'protect' a map, is when I need to use the Map Optimizer to make it smaller. If I do so, I leave my email address on the map offering the un-optimized version to anyone who asks.

And yea, maps can be improved by people who edit them other than the author. It's not all negative.

Same here . I'd only use Vexorian's Map Optimizer for protection because of either map size, or depending on how much time it loads to launch the game.

Please excuse any typos, I'm using a school laptop and it's hard to type , but at 12:00 I will start typing normal and faster .

 

[Atreides]

The only case in which I will 'protect' a map, is when I need to use the Map Optimizer to make it smaller. If I do so, I leave my email address on the map offering the un-optimized version to anyone who asks.

And yea, maps can be improved by people who edit them other than the author. It's not all negative.

I pretty much agree. In my maps I think I'm going to say that if they wonder how I did something, they can just whisper me, or check out the help section of the forums that the map is a part of...If I feel I made a good map, I'll protect it to make sure that no one accidentally or purposefully releases a worse version-if they have suggestions I'm open to em. If they really have the desire to learn, they can turn on internet explorer/firefox, register on a forum, and make a thread.

 

[S0nic]

Hi, i'm new around here, but for what it counts, here's my opinion:

First' i'm a new to World Editor, i've been playing around with it for more than a week now, and with a lot of help from people of this forum i can proudly say that i've leaned the basics and some advanced stuff, i am currently working on a rpg map with a lot of quests, npc-s, 16 or more heores to chose, etc..

So in my opinion maps should be protected, but also, offered a chance for people who want to learn how some things form the map are done.
If anyone wants to know how some different aspects of the map are made, they should email the author, ask what they want to know..
but also for the authors of the map, they should be forbearing and find the time to respond to those emails, answer the questions and even explain how certain things are done so another person can learn a great deal about map making, this way the integrity and ownership of the map is protected from average user who wants to edit it, or even claim it as his or her own.

 

[SFilip]

"Map Protection" is a very vague expression.
Simply deleting the trigger index file (war3map.wtg) is plain stupid...usually someone who did this thinks he is some uber expert who just made his map impossible to open...y'a right.

Optimizing a map is a completely different thing. Although I never really made a map so far, I intend to optimize it if I do. And yes, I will use the option that crashes the editor of anyone who tries to open it. The reason is simple: it's for him to know that the map is protected.
And, well, if anyone wants the unprotected version he can always ask me.

 

[Tonks]

By map Protection, I mean generally inhibiting people from parts of it, anything that doesn't leave it open and untainted.
A few of you have voiced the opinion that all maps should be protected, so that they don't get 'stolen'.
But, yet again, is it really such a bad thing? Does it really matter that much?
And there's also the factor that a lot of mappers just truly do not want to share their work. I don't understand their logic for this, so if anyone who feels that way sees this, please explain why.

 

[SFilip]

> Does it really matter that much?
In some cases it does.
A map left open might just be found by someone who doesn't know how to play it. And he might want to improve it...by adding a cheat.
And he might as well keep everything including the author's name around.
So people see that there are cheats and go to some site hosting the map...they leave a comment that the map contains cheats and the next thing you know is no one playing it anymore.
Map protection in a way filters most of those idiots...I highly doubt that anyone would go through the trouble of unprotecting a map scrambled by vex's optimizer just to add some cheat.

Another scenario:
A RPG map with a save/load codes, not protected. Now some idiot is too lazy to play, opens the map, somehow figures how the code is generated and voila somehow he has a top level character with uber items while other players who spent much more time leveling don't stand much of a chance.

 

[Tonks]

That's worst-case-scenario. Here are a few more:
-Someone really wants to know how a trigger's done, can't open it.
-Someone really wants to update a map that's been out of circulation and is protected, and that the author has stopped working on.

Yes, map protection can stop some idiots from changing it.
Yes, it can also stop some good-intentioned people from changing it.
Basically, I'm going to rely on people's good nature and their coherence to ethical conduct, though I realize that this may be stupid in some cases.

 

[Peanuthead]

The answer is Yes in my opinion.

If the map was unprotected, a 3rd-rate mapper could put a cheat in there for himself in 2 minutes flat and have it on bnet. A even worse mapper could completly change the credits in the same amount of time. One single change will make the map having to be downloaded again in order to play, and if this was a large map, the map would be impossible to spread. The extra [1]'s found commonly in filenames are a problem enough.

I see it as this, Map Protection is just simply making sure someone with experience enough to know that cheats and taking credit are wrong can open the map, and noone below that(although unfortunately most current protection is a little too strong). There is plenty of material on the net for mappers to learn from that, they don't have to open maps to learn from them, and they probaly wouldn't learn anyway as these things need explanation.

And sure, people can say credit is not a big deal and it's all owned by Blizzard anyway, but what drives most mappers to map anyway? If it's not the credit I don't know.

 

[Akatsuki]

I'm not one of the people who would release a version of a popular map just to get my 15 minutes of fame. I try to learn triggering but most maps that I find are protected and the ones that are not protected are bad ones and one that I could do by myself if I play around for it for awhile. But I do understand why mapmakers protect their maps. It's hard to say. And I had a hard time learning how to make maps because of the protection. But I say that if someone could make a unprotected map, better. Then they could someday make a better map from the beginning. I'm not really sure because most maps made from unprotected maps are not good. But I don't play alot of new custom maps.

 

[Tonks]

>If it's not the credit I don't know.

Personally, I map for myself. I create maps that I have fun with. Like Murder at the Mansion, I didn't sign it, and I didn't protect it. Noone's screwed with it, though it was very popular for a while, and is still played somewhat.
Fame on a video game, imo, is pointless.

 

[Akatsuki]

I heard that making a great map that everyone plays is not as good as other people think. I heard that they kick you off the map because they believe that you're a spoofer or start throwing ideas at you when you just want to play.

 

[Tonks]

I heard that making a great map that everyone plays is not as good as other people think. I heard that they kick you off the map because they believe that you're a spoofer or start throwing ideas at you when you just want to play.

Heh, lucky for me, that doesn't happen unless one of my friends tells them. Then people start going "No f'ing way, you liars" and start ignoring or insulting us, lol. There are also the other people that revere you for making a map, which is just as annoying.

And no, you generally don't get kicked from your own map, there's always the /whois command. Those people that start throwing ideas can be /squelched. (Bnet has ya covered)

 

[Mahucharn]

I think that in some cases where the game still needs some work (footmen frenzy 5.4b) should be unprotected but other games like Aos types should be closed for obvious reasons. I'll admit that I've always wated to open Human vs. Orcs 4.0a and see what trigger made the character codes and things like that.

 

[Akatsuki]

Good because I was starting to think that if I ever made a map I would have to use one of my old accounts to hide the fact that I made it or something. Actually I think I will still do that because then If I ever made a map I could really get feedbacks from a person personally. Well I don't know because I'm a noob at map making but I heard about the map protect that makes the loading time shorter. Could you use it without protecting the map? Because I think that if you can't then that might be something to concider because you always want a shorter loading time.

 

[Frozenhelfir]

Got Protection?

That's worst-case-scenario. Here are a few more:
-Someone really wants to know how a trigger's done, can't open it.
-Someone really wants to update a map that's been out of circulation and is protected, and that the author has stopped working on.

Yes, map protection can stop some idiots from changing it.
Yes, it can also stop some good-intentioned people from changing it.
Basically, I'm going to rely on people's good nature and their coherence to ethical conduct, though I realize that this may be stupid in some cases.

If someone really wants to know how a trigger's done, they can just come here like I did

Anyways, here's my 2 cents on the topic.

I think map makers should start protecting their maps more often than not, but leave an email in the quest log/briefing so people can still contact the author. This is to stop all the noob edits, but yet still allow people who want to learn, do so.

Some may say that the noob edits aren't a big deal, but it really is. If I released a map I had worked long and hard on, I want them to be playing the best game I have to offer. However, if some people get owned too much and start adding cheats, people who can choose between an unfair map and a household map like DotA will obviously go with DotA.

The noob edits will hurt a map much more than someone would think. I was reading a few of the earlier posts when I came across the vampirism one. I found it very insightful as it showed how a good map can be destroyed by noob edits.

However, looking at it from the other side, I do see that it somewhat inhibits learning. In my opinion, if someone is really (the word doesn't come to my tongue right now, I want to say 'driven' though) to learn how a mapmaker did something, they would come to websites like this one. I think it is safe to assume that there will always be one person who knows how a specific thing works, and can henceforth assist them. Basically, I'm saying if you combined the knowledge of everyone here, someone looking to get a trigger from a protected map could get all the information they need to complete the task.

So if you skipped all of that, I think it is necessary for map makers to protect their maps if they want people to play it. People will just go for the household names over one full of cheats.