McCain vs Obama

[WolSHaman]

Ron Paul also thinks that delivering babies is a useful quality for the US President. And that 9/11 was because we invaded Iraq, according to that one speech he tried to give.

I don't like Ron Paul, I don't like his policies, as I said earlier, however, it makes him look better in my eyes if he makes someone else who I don't like as a politician look bad. Enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing.

 

[Darthfett]

Yeah, rock on Paul! Who needs a nation? Let's just go back to the thirteen colonies! Let's just abolish America and become part of Britain again!

But in all seriousness, Obama's foreign policy sucks. His plan, unless it's changed, to end the war in Iraq won't work. All that he would accomplish is getting about three fourths of the way done with extraction, then there would be a huge surge in violence, and he would be fucked and then we'd have to go back in and it'll become a huge mess.
And, personally, I think that if Obama wins then there'll be some terrorism issues like we saw with Clinton (USS Cole, the 1993 WTC thing, ect), and he'll fail to really do anything about it.
Bush made a lot of mistakes, but in my mind actually doing something about terrorism after 9/11 (which wasn't an inside job regardless of how much you want a reason to hate the Bush Administration and the CIA) made him a way better President than most people give him credit for. The Iraq thing was a fuckup because of the strategy, though.

Depending on who McCain's running mate is, I'll probably vote for him (if he gets someone like Romney who has a somewhat decent domestic policy that McCain can fall back on, then I'm going with him). Obama, chances are I'm not voting for him regardless of who his running mate is because I think he's going to fuck everything up. Plus if we do get attacked while he's President, then there goes the Democratic party.

And about Bush's public speaking, because people seem to hate him strictly off that, I've talked to him before in a smaller group of people. It's amazing how much he sucks at doing those speeches in front of a lot of people compared to that, he really is a lot more intelligent than people give him credit for. Although the peanut incident does kind of exemplify it....

QFT

Barack Obama. If you watched McCain's speech tonight, it is evident that he has nowhere near the public speaking ability that Obama has.

Since public speaking ability is so important? Many presidents didn't have good public speaking abilities. The president doesn't have to be perfect in every way.

Do you really believe that foreign policy is about killing Muslims? Diplomacy FTW.

Also, many decisions regarding foreign policy are made by generals, ambassadors, and the secretaries of the state and defense. I really don't think Obama's wanting to get out of Iraq is going to lead to the downfall of the US. His foreign policy is certainly not what we should be worried about.

The republican foreign policy is about winning the war, so we are setting an example for future terrorist groups. Diplomacy doesn't work when you're fighting an evasive enemy. They haven't thrown in the towel, WE will be. If you quit because you don't feel like fighting any more, what's going to prevent the next terrorist group?

True. It's up to Congress to take us out of Iraq. When Bush sent in troops, they only had to be in there for 90 days. At any time, Congress can use their powers to remove the troops. Look up the War Powers Resolution if you don't believe me.

 

[Seb!]

The war has cost like 5.5 billion dollars.

That is so untrue. That number is estimated to be much higher by the time we pull out. Also, what it has cost Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries. Anyway, even that small and underestimated number could fund numerous helpful federal domestic operations.

The republican foreign policy is about winning the war, so we are setting an example for future terrorist groups. Diplomacy doesn't work when you're fighting an evasive enemy. They haven't thrown in the towel, WE will be. If you quit because you don't feel like fighting any more, what's going to prevent the next terrorist group?

You can't end, stop, or even put a dent into the kind of terrorism we're talking about; religious extremism. Even if we "win" the Iraq War. Though it would be a big oxymoron/paradox, terrorism would only be fueled with more hatred and more reason to do what they have been doing. Anyway, if we wanted to do SOMETHING to help.. Iraq is definitely not the place when Africa is in shreds full of actually preventable terrorism, disease, and corrupt government.

 

[hi_im_bob]

First off thanks to everyone to replying. Now to the debating.

First off I think that anyone who believes the nonsense that obama will pull everyone out of Iraq the day he is elected is crap. First off congress has continually (although barely) continued to approve the war and adding troops. Although that was during a republican majority, it was not only the republicans who supported it. Second of all it will take months for it to occur, there are thousands of military personal and media personal not counting all the equipment.

Second what exactly as Obama said that will help the economy? It is probably the biggest problem in the US and has he given any suggestions to help the rising cost of food (or the serious food problems in the world) or gas? I didnt think so.

Although neither canidate is anywhere near perfect, I have to agree with McCain that staying in Iraq is the best thing to do right now. And for all of you who complain that it is costing us so much money, please dont pretend that most of it would go to repairing roads. It would probably go to the military and foriegn countries. So while many of you share Obama's quixotic ideas that will never come true, I think that i will stick with the realistic (and more moraly correct in my opinion) McCain

 

[Seb!]

I disagree with everything you said, but the things we disagree on are too basic to debate.


EDIT: PLus Rep to anyone who figures out why my post count right now is significant to me.

 

[WolSHaman]

I disagree with everything you said, but the things we disagree on are too basic to debate.


EDIT: PLus Rep to anyone who figures out why my post count right now is significant to me.

Because some idiots believe that post count=intelligence, so in order to have your opinion respected you want a higher post count?

 

[TheDamien]

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

I'm not sure who I'd like (although, not being American, I don't really have a say). McCain seems fairly good for a republican, but I really like Obama. The only problem with Obama is his lack of experience.

I think all the bitter Hillary supporters will go for McCain.

EDIT: Also

 

[New_U.S.]

LOL, its like James Bond xD

Spoiler

nope

Spoiler

Seb, its because you want to catch up to me.... can I have rep now (jk... sorta)

 

[Seb!]

Sorry, New Us, TheDamien And Wolshaman. (The Damien that's ridiculously coincidental, and I would rep you but i need to spread it around.

538 was my count.. S E B.. common people.

--

Anyway, nice pics scott. People are getting snappy, and logic isn't at its highest. But Barack Obama's message will win out in the end. HopeFullee.

 

[C-Death]

Personally, I hope Obama wins. I do not believe, who ever the president is, will pull troops out of Iraq their first day. But, I believe that will be on the top list of things they do soon after they get into office.

 

[Prometheus]

We need a troop-pull-out-plan that will take 6 months to a year.
Australia pulled out already.

 

[Varine]

We need a troop-pull-out-plan that will take 6 months to a year.
Australia pulled out already.

Australia wasn't doing anything either.

 

[New_U.S.]

Australia wasn't doing anything either.

LOL.

Personally, I hope Obama wins. I do not believe, who ever the president is, will pull troops out of Iraq their first day. But, I believe that will be on the top list of things they do soon after they get into office.

Would it be wrong for me to say that maybe pulling out of Iraq shouldn't be top of the list. I mean, it is important, no doubt about that, and the pullout should be done correctly. I think our economy and recources should be placed over Iraq. Probably a troop pullout can be fit into a boosting economy plan. Until then I think Patreaus has done an excellent job with what he was handed. I'm saying all this in the sense that I think (in the long run) the U.S.' top goal would be to be free of foreign oil dependance. Spend money to get a working recourse that can be domestically made/maintained. That would create jobs and boost the economy. Thats where the U.S. should be looking where it wants to be a decade or two from now.

 

[Miz]

Well these two are running for the so called 'Most powerful person in the world' Position. McCain scares me...

High up Republican politicians scare me these days. I mean at least Bush was an idiot, and he got US into a lot of Trouble, now McCain he seems to have some intelligence so I don't want to know what evil schemes he will be planning.

As for the Troops in Iraq, I don't believe we made it worse or better for the situation, yes we made it better for the citizens (somewhat). But in the Middle East they been fighting for over 2,000 years, and with there culture theirs no way its going to end anytime soon. Even if the new kid on the block steps in (US) it won't do much good... So lets get out of their mess and fix our own problems >.>

 

[Varine]

As for the Troops in Iraq, I don't believe we made it worse or better for the situation, yes we made it better for the citizens (somewhat). But in the Middle East they been fighting for over 2,000 years, and with there culture theirs no way its going to end anytime soon. Even if the new kid on the block steps in (US) it won't do much good... So lets get out of their mess and fix our own problems >.>

So Iraq is no longer our own problem?

I'm not sure if anyone knows what Obama's and McCain's plans are for Iraq, so I'll post them.

Obama (2 years in office): Immediately begin withdrawing troops, and be done within 16 months (or by the end of 2009, he keeps jumping around with it). Leave troops for the US Embassy and to attack any al'Qaeda bases that are built up there.

McCain (22 years in office): Put pressure on Iran and Syria to begin to cooperate with the US. Wait another couple of years to see how much things improve, then begin a phased pullout buy 2013. Military presence will remain, but it's small and will not play a direct combatant role.


If we leave before the government is fully established and the Iraqi Security Forces take over the rest of the provinces then any somewhat friendly government will in all likelihood collapse and then the Ba'ath party will come back and, personally, I seriously doubt that they'll be very happy with a US Embassy in their country which means they'll probably just attack it. So Obama's plan really kind of sucks. Plus, he wants to remove two or so brigades a month. The Iraqi insurgents aren't stupid, they'll figure it out (probably because Obama will make an announcement and they'll hear about it eventually, or because they'll realize there's a lot less soldiers there) and then all they have to do is wait a few months and then strike out and retake the country, and then he would have to send troops back to help the ones remaining there. And even if it does work, al'Qaeda's going to be able to operate in Iraq now because no one's going to stop them. We can hardly keep them at bay now and we've got ove 150,000 troops there.

 

[n[u]ll]

I really don't like either McCain or Obama. I'd rather McCain win, but I'm not so sure he will.

About the Iraq war, I'm 100% against it, I've even got a cousin out fighting and It'd be very heart-warming to know he could come back safely. But I'm not sure about pulling out. I think it's like 60% of Iraqi's want foreign militaries out of their country. The thing is, if we leave now, violence will begin to erupt and maybe even dwarf what has happened since this war started. Plus, I think if we start a war we must end it, I know that may not be 'sane', but it's my belief, and I'm stickin' by it.

One of the things I dislike about Obama is that he supports giving drivers licenses to illegal immigrants, and believes we should give all 12+ million immigrants a path to citizenship.. I live in Souther California and come from a Mexican family who migrated here about 60 years ago, and I just can't believe the amount of illegal immigrants here. Just the other day someone drove his car into a house a couple miles from mine, it turns out he was an illegal immigrant and drunk at the time... Now, does he really deserve a driver's license?

Some other policies of his that I don't like is gun control, and climate change.
I will say though, that Obama is a smart man and sure does know how to give a speech...

 

[Lobster]

Although I support obama more, if we pull out immediately, theres a little something known as vietnam that seems familair .
(immediate pullout, then vietnam got pwned)

Why does this seem similar?

 

[Varine]

Although I support obama more, if we pull out immediately, theres a little something known as vietnam that seems familair .
(immediate pullout, then vietnam got pwned)

Why does this seem similar?

Because Vietnam is viewed as the first major US military fuckup and now Iraq is becoming viewed as the second? Well... major one anyway, considering Somalia....

Immediate pullout is a bad idea. Really, any kind of massive withdrawal is going to be a huge mistake until the Security Forces take responsibility for the rest of the provinces, which given the improvements that have been happening over the last few years will probably not be too long.

 

[Lord_Phoenix]

Barack Obama. If you watched McCain's speech tonight, it is evident that he has nowhere near the public speaking ability that Obama has.

You think that how people speak determine their ability to lead a country? True, speaking well can comfort people, but the ability to execute actions and to understand what must be done to improve the country is more important than speaking properly.

He has become a symbol of the old Bush government, giving him the name "McSame." There have also been commercials comparing his mannerisms, speeches, and stance on issues to those of Bush. His insistence on "staying the course" in a widely unpopular war is starting to hurt. Deregulation and the transfer of tax dollars away from federal assistance agencies, schools, and health care have become the pillars of his campaign. Instead he wants to add troops to Iraq, where many Americans feel their tax dollars are being used to fund the rich lifestyle of a few CEO's.

The CEO's and the rich people are already paying 60% of America's taxes. This article also shows that tax cuts helped everyone overall, not just the rich... There are other articles of similar sorts out there. http://www.american.com/archive/200...zine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes

Obama's message of affordable health care, transfer of money away from Iraq, and safety nets in this financially unstable time have led him to the top of certain popularity poles. This is why John McCain is unelectable. I do believe, in addition, that Barack Obama will be a good president.

This graph shows that about 18% of Americans do not have health care http://www.ebri.org/publications/benfaq/hlthfaqch10a.gif

How is Obama's health care affordable? How will Obama pay for his health care? by raising taxes of people who can afford it. We already spend about 1 TRILLION dollars on medicare and health benefits http://www.nathannewman.org/laborblog/archive/003725.shtml To cover ALL of America's health care, how much will it cost the people?

Also, some people rather have a larger paycheck in exchange for providing their own health support. I don't feel like digging up the graph.

Transferring money away from Iraq will help what? Yes it might lower military spending, but what will happen when we remove power from a country that generally hates us?

Oh, and how will Obama be a good president? Look up his biography and see if you really want him to be your president.

The American economy cannot exist on a borrow-and-spend, rather than tax-and-spend base. This only, in the end, hurts the taxpayer. The tax cuts for the rich that McCain promises to reinstate will only come out of federal help agencies and the education system.

Source? And how much total from these agencies will be taken? Where do you suggest we get the money if not from somewhere we're already spending money?

The money spent so far on the Iraq War could rebuild every road, bridge, school, and hospital in America.

Once again, what source?

John McCain seems to embrace this fact, even wanting to send more soldiers in. Obama is ashamed that America would let this happen, and has promised to pull out. The awful economy would only continue under a rule that moves away from safety nets for low-income households, as John McCain would like to see. The combination of a conservative government with low regulation and no government programs, however favorable, cannot exist with the current state of most Americans financial lives, as well as the gigantic amount of government waste spending on a pointless war to fund CEO golf trips.

Debate it all you want, and I will still disagree about Iraq.. but even so I really don't think it's the biggest issue, for Americans or me. The economy and health care can't be referred to as "something for the vice president to handle" while our corporations are subsidizing jobs to India.

China, actually. Anyways, we outsource jobs there because the people in India and China almost have slave labor, so we can save lots more money outsourcing brute force jobs rather than forcing to pay minimum wage here. The problem with minimum wage is that it helps inflation. If EVERYONE gets a certain amount of money, then prices will increase since the dollar will be worth less.

Subsidizing means giving money to someone so they don't overproduce. Like farmers producing food. We are transferring or outsourcing the work. Not subsidizing.

Too much money has gone from helping the economy to Iraq. It really can't be worth it for all of America to go into a recession for this war. There is no way possible that it's worth anything near that. If it really is that big of a deal, someone else who's not in a recession, possibly even something like the UN (which we give tons of money to), can handle it.

Why are we putting so much money in Iraq? Because they have the oil to lower our gas prices. If we can't have enough oil, then our country pretty much stops.

The UN really has no power anyways. Unless all the countries agree to do something, they will rarely mobilize forces.

Theres something about how to help the economy in there, but I really don't feeling like formalizing a thought right now... I'll probably have more to say later.

 

[Varine]

Why are we putting so much money in Iraq? Because they have the oil to lower our gas prices. If we can't have enough oil, then our country pretty much stops.

The UN really has no power anyways. Unless all the countries agree to do something, they will rarely mobilize forces.

Theres something about how to help the economy in there, but I really don't feeling like formalizing a thought right now... I'll probably have more to say later.

War in Iraq: $530 Billion over 6 years
US Federal Budget of 1999 (when the economy was good and Bill Clinton was off refusing to take any action against terrorism): 1.7 Trillion
US Federal Budget 2000: 1.8 Trillion
2001: 1.9 Trillion
2002: 2.0 Trillion
2003: 2.3 Trillion
2004: 2.3 Trillion
2005: 2.4 Trillion
2006: 2.7 Trillion
2007: 2.77 Trillion

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be blaming the war for the economy.

UN=most useless organization EVER.

Chances are we won't be getting much oil from Iraq for a while. If we were going to war because of a need for oil, there would be far better places to invade.