World Car bomb kills scores in Peshawar

[UndeadDragon]

At least 91 people have been killed after a car bomb ripped through a busy market in Peshawar, Pakistan. The attack, which injured scores more people, was the deadliest to hit Pakistan this year. Similar attacks have killed more than 200 people in recent weeks, as the army carries out an operation against Taliban militants in South Waziristan.

The blast came as US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton began a visit to the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. Mrs Clinton told a news conference the US was "standing shoulder to shoulder" with Pakistan in its fight against "brutal extremist groups".

Local officials blamed the Taliban for Wednesday's car bombing, though no claim of responsibility was reported. The blast tore through buildings in Peshawar's Peepal Mandi market street, setting several of them on fire.

Read more here.

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91 people killed by one car bomb

 

[Wiseman_2]

April 19th, 1995. 169 People killed by a truck bomb.

It often suprises people how powerful these deadly improvised weapons are. The shockwave they generate can kill people well out of range of the instant-death zone by shattering glass. If structures affected are paticularly weak, as appears to be the case in Pakistan here (that's what I gathered from the video), then the death toll is bound to go up.

 

[UndeadDragon]

Yeah, it seems as though there have been many attacks this week.

I didn't know that the terrorists actually had weapons that were this destructive.

 

[Wiseman_2]

I had a really great reply to this but god knows the FUCKING INTERNET kicked out and I only have one paragraph of it -.-

It is simply not possible to stop a determined terrorist. They are resourceful and more often than not they are unafraid of death. It is very feasable that someone would be able to build a powerful, albeit inefficient bomb in their backyard. The materials most terrorists use are harder to aquire than they once were - the Ammonium Nitrate Timothy McVeigh used in the Oklahoma City Bombing (April 19th, 1995) was purchased from a farm store and the Nitromethane obtained from a racetrack. These chemicals are more difficult to aquire now, but not impossible. McVeigh had to go to some lengths to get the Nitromethane, being a prime example of the resourcefulness of a terrorist.

Don't think it's really possible to build a bomb in your backyard? The following video shows 150KG (330lb) of powerful explosive in a car:
[YOUTUBE]h7YJxsKD5jw[/YOUTUBE]
It was put together by someone with a little chemical knowledge, and thankfully he wasn't the type to go around blowing up government buildings.

Another good point which exemplifies the destructive power of a vehicle bomb was the 1996 Manchester bombing. The IRA left a truck in the middle of Manchester with 3000lb of explosives in it. The area was evacuated beforehand, but still 212 people were injured over a huge area by falling glass. The following video is of the blast itself:
[YOUTUBE]_4EoXH1ju_0[/YOUTUBE]
Bear in mind the 1995 Oklahoma City Bombing involved nearly twice the amount of explosives and resulted in the collapse of 1/3rd of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building.

Statistically, I think it's something in the area that you are more likely to be struck by lightning than die in a terror attack. If you want to research further into these weapons, I recommend reading "Buda's Wagon: A Brief history of the Car Bomb" by Mike Davis. I have not read it myself, but I plan to and have seen the TV documentry series based off of it. Very interesting subject matter, to me at least (I will probably get taken away in the middle of the night for my interests ).

Anyway I think I went off on a bit of a different tact to what it was orginally, but you get the jist.

 

[Varine]

I didn't know that the terrorists actually had weapons that were this destructive.

These people are tricky dude. Some of the IED's were triggered using a walkie talkie... it's insane. Bombs aren't that hard to make though, I mean you really don't need super advanced explosives to do major damage. You can make a decent bomb using non-dairy creamer (that gross powdered shit) and gasoline.

 

[Wiseman_2]

You can make a decent bomb using non-dairy creamer (that gross powdered shit) and gasoline.

Would that not just result in a fireball, as opposed to a true explosion? A fireball might singe a few eyebrows but wouldn't do much damage to structures.

 

[Varine]

Would that not just result in a fireball, as opposed to a true explosion? A fireball might singe a few eyebrows but wouldn't do much damage to structures.

That's why you need the gasoline and it needs to be compressed or else it'll just burn. When it snows I'll see if I can do it right, I don't want to set a tree on fire. Someone told us how in Iraq... I was busy that day though. I had a very important thing to do involving a car and showing someone how to use our rockets, which was more fun so I didn't watch them make it.

 

[Wiseman_2]

Also, some sources are now putting the Peshawar bomb at 150KG. That's the same size as I showed in the clip up there, but given that the explosive was probably not as complex, it wouldn't have appeared quite so powerful; and yet it still managed to kill 91 people.

 

[NameWithheld]

It is simply not possible to stop a determined terrorist.
Don't think it's really possible to build a bomb in your backyard? The following video shows 150KG (330lb) of powerful explosive in a car:
[YOUTUBE]h7YJxsKD5jw[/YOUTUBE]
It was put together by someone with a little chemical knowledge, and thankfully he wasn't the type to go around blowing up government buildings.

1. "It is simply not possible to stop a determined terrorist."

I agree. The simple restriction of basic chemicals will do little to hinder someone with the right knowledge. Restriction of ammonium nitrate simply forces the determined individual to turn to more sophisticated, and in many cases more powerful alternatives. Never mind that ammonium nitrate is still produced on the order of millions of tons for other industrial purposes and blasting. Blasting grade ammonium nitrate prills (often pre-sensitized with microbaloons) are routinely shipped in bulk quantities for mining and road building applications, where they may be used in excess of 100 tons in a single blast. The transport of these massive quantities of explosive agents is not as high security as you might think... if I recall correctly, McVeigh himself stole many of the materials used in the Oklahoma City bombing from a local quarry. He even left behind something like 20 tons of ANFO, believing it to be too weak an explosive.

Another inefficient gov. tactic is the focus on airport security, which the US government spends billions on... For the effort required to get a pound of explosives on a plane these days, a terrorist could just as easily fill a whole dump truck with stolen explosives. For that matter, entire train cars of potentially explosive chemicals are shipped around the world on a daily basis. Taking that potential energy and making it a reality would require some fairly in depth knowledge in many cases... but one should not underestimate the abilities of his enemies.



2. "It was put together by someone with a little chemical knowledge, and thankfully he wasn't the type to go around blowing up government buildings."

Indeed, while he's not in the least inclined to hurt anyone... I'm curious why you think he has little chemical knowledge You're talking about someone who messes around with nitrotetrazoles in his spare time.

Perhaps you know more about him than I do



3.

You can make a decent bomb using non-dairy creamer (that gross powdered shit) and gasoline.

Have you actually witnessed the assembly and successful testing of a device of this type? Is it a mixture of gasoline and creamer, or are they used separately? If you're talking about some kind of high explosive mixture, I don't see how that would be possible with those materials. While gasoline can be used in binary high explosive mixtures (such as with nitrogen tetraoxide), its always mixed with oxidizers. I don't see where there's anywhere near enough oxygen in creamer... and it's not exactly a high nitrogen compound, so I don't see where there would be any explosively unstable bonds going on in the creamer itself.

Whats more likely is that its being used in some kind of primitive fuel air deflagration device, aka fireball maker. Several military manuals make use of flammable powders in designs for improvised explosive devices (you don't often hear IED in this context, but many special forces are actually trained to be able to make an IED). By explosively dispersing something like creamer, and then igniting it, you can get a pretty decent little fireball. In an enclosed space it can cause some damage since its a somewhat quick burn, maybe even knock down a wall or something. I wouldn't want to be in a room with one but its got basically zilch for true explosive power, especially when compared to car bombs being discussed in this thread... where you're talking about the overpressure alone reducing walls to dust.

The same guy who did the above car explosion also gave a demonstration on the difference between detonation and deflagration in the context of explosively dispersed fuels. The creamer bombs I've seen have been basically a powder version of the first clip in this video.

[YOUTUBE]xquGETNoRms[/YOUTUBE]

Even in the context of dispersed fuels, deflagration is far less powerful than detonation, and the detonation of high explosives in on an entirely different level altogether. Could still make a decent improvised weapon in a pinch tho, especially since it would be sure to start fires. True FAEs, on the other hand, have some real potential... and fairly easily scaled up.

 

[Wiseman_2]

The same guy who did the above car explosion

OK, I'm going to hazard a guess here, given your username and all, that you were that guy

I'm curious why you think he has little chemical knowledge

No, I meant that a little chemical knowledge goes some way. I didn't mean that he had little (he probably has a lot of chemical knowledge), just that it doesn't take much to be able to put together something that could easily kill several dozen people. Look at McVeigh, his military experience was enough; and the information is available on the internet if you look hard enough

 

[NameWithheld]

A little chemical knowledge goes some way. It doesn't take much to be able to put together something that could easily kill several dozen people.

Very true, a little knowledge can be deadly. Even scarier, imagine what a lot of knowledge could do...

I don't mean to scare anyone, and feel free to delete this if I'm too specific... but there are some really terrifying possibilities out there. The chemical weapons developed by the military are deadly, but difficult to synthesize. There are however a great deal of extremely deadly poisons in the world that for various reasons would not meet military requirements... but would still function as a terrorist attack. Several pollutants, specifically dioxins and dimethyl mercury are fatal or have severe effects at extremely low levels. Some dioxins have detrimental health effects at just a couple parts per trillion in the air, such as increasing risk of cancer 100 fold. Dispersing just 100kg of such a poison in the air in a large city could have catastrophic results.

Dimethyl mercury is fatal, eventually, at milligram levels, and easily produced. It passes through most any clothing or even protective equipment. It can be fatal through breathing vapors, getting it on your skin, having it in foods... in general if you're ever around the stuff, you're gonna die. A terrorist could easily poison a city water supply with it, or just disperse it in the air. Nothing would happen. Then.. months later, millions of people would fall into thrashing comas and die. It's really nasty stuff.

These are advanced attacks that could kill millions. A far less advanced but nonetheless devastating terrorist attack would be building demolition. A trained team of terrorists with linear shaped charges could quickly enter the basement of a skyscraper and set up the charges required to sever all the core columns and building support structures. They could then quickly leave the area, set the charges off from outside the building, and retreat as it collapsed. In all likelihood they could get away and commit the same attack in another city, multiple times. People working in tall buildings would start fearing to even come to work. How do you protect against an attack that can occur on any tall building, anywhere in the country?

And I haven't even started on biological attacks... don't even want to go there.

So basically... the stuff terrorists do now is bad, yes. But its nothing compared to the worst case scenarios.

Scared now?

/end doomsday rant

 

[Wiseman_2]

A far less advanced but nonetheless devastating terrorist attack would be building demolition. A trained team of terrorists with linear shaped charges could quickly enter the basement of a skyscraper and set up the charges required to sever all the core columns and building support structures. They could then quickly leave the area, set the charges off from outside the building, and retreat as it collapsed. In all likelihood they could get away and commit the same attack in another city, multiple times. People working in tall buildings would start fearing to even come to work. How do you protect against an attack that can occur on any tall building, anywhere in the country?

Not that this is an impossible thing to occur, but I think this is probably a very unlikely scenario. For one, I think it's unlikely terrorists could become well trained enough to execute such a plan accurately. I think most would simply continue to use the "poor man's airforce" - the 1993 WTC bombing, for example, was intended to topple the towers, and had the truck been parked closer to the concrete supports, it might well have succeeded. If by some chance they did gain the knowledge - and the shaped charges (perhaps a demolition team flipped out? ) - then I think it's unlikely they could begin set up without someone at least noticing what was going on; paticularly in western countries where most buildings have CCTV. In the middle east, it becomes the problem of training as opposed to security.

Dimethyl Mercury though... well, I suppose it depends on how easy it is to access such poisons and toxins. And I imagine it would take a well-trained individual to handle them without melting their faces off.

There is also the fact that most terrorist attacks are designed as much to kill as send a message. If it takes several months to kill everyone, then the message does not get across quite so well; sure, people have died, but it does not have the same shock impact that 2500KG of Ammonium Nitrate and Nitromethane has.
I suppose if the perpetrators claimed responsibility, it might have some impact, but most would be more worried about their own health to care for the motives behind the attack, not to mention the blind anger. And inevitably, it will all come back round to the government notion of Terror = bad = impose restrictive laws on our own people.

Personally, I would be more worried about all those missing Russian nukes.

 

[NameWithheld]

If by some chance they did gain the knowledge - and the shaped charges (perhaps a demolition team flipped out? ) - then I think it's unlikely they could begin set up without someone at least noticing what was going on; paticularly in western countries where most buildings have CCTV.

Assuming they had the knowledge- which might I add, is freely available- the shaped charges could easily be produced clandestinely. The uhh... guy who did the car explosion demo could easily make dozens of linear shaped charges, quickly and inexpensively. As for setting them up, assuming they checked out the building beforehand... they could go in, set up the charges, shoot anyone in their way, and get out in well under 5 minutes. In a 50 story building, there's no way to alert everyone and evacuate the building in 80 seconds, and security would definitely not be able to respond and stop the attack in 2 minutes either. Add in the fact that the average security guy wouldn't have the first clue how to stop such an attack, or how to disable the bombs. CCTV is a moot point when your window of opportunity is that small as well.

There's all kinds of ways they could get someone with the knowledge. I'm sure they have some people in their ranks that were formerly special forces for some nation. If they ever got some ex-special forces with the right training... or just a crazy retired chemist or engineer, anyone with a relevant degree could pull this type of thing off. Or just someone smart who knew how to use the internet to do research. There's no question they can obtain or produce the explosives. Creating shaped charges once you have the explosives takes little effort, and a number of types of shaped charges are ALREADY being used by terrorist in Iraq. There's no question they'd be able to get the men willing for such a mission. The training would not be extensive- nothing more than learning where to place the charges, and how to do it quickly. Such a person could be adequately trained in a couple days. For that matter, al-Qa'ida is already well known for their ability to pull off simultaneous bombings of multiple targets. There's nothing in any way unrealistic about it.

Yes, this would require training. Yes, it would require knowledge. I'm not saying any current terrorists could pull this off. The point is that if they ever DID get some intelligent members, shit could hit the fan. Is it so unlikely that they will ever get someone with a brain? Maybe. Maybe not.

Dimethyl Mercury though... well, I suppose it depends on how easy it is to access such poisons and toxins. And I imagine it would take a well-trained individual to handle them without melting their faces off.

Its not a matter of accessing them- its a matter of making them, which can be done with commonly available and easily obtained chemicals. Making, or buying the equipment (none of which is advanced) would likewise be easy. The mission would almost invariably be fatal, but it could take months before symptoms started to show- by which time millions of people could be fatally poisoned. And there's no question that terrorists have members willing to die for the mission...

There is also the fact that most terrorist attacks are designed as much to kill as send a message. If it takes several months to kill everyone, then the message does not get across quite so well; sure, people have died, but it does not have the same shock impact that 2500KG of Ammonium Nitrate and Nitromethane has.

You realize we're talking about millions, right? Multiple dimethyl mercury attacks in large cities could wipe out 100 million people. It would be incomparable to any terrorist attack, or really any attack ever, in history.

And yes, some terrorist attacks are designed to kill few people, but send a strong message. A lot of them, on the other hand, are just designed to kill people. There's no question that many terrorists would jump at the opportunity to wipe out a good portion of the population of the US.

I suppose if the perpetrators claimed responsibility, it might have some impact, but most would be more worried about their own health to care for the motives behind the attack, not to mention the blind anger.

People will have that same reaction to most any attack. 9/11 had the same effect here- in the end, no one cared to learn why it was done, or what their motives were. Most of the population was just scared and angry. Hell, I'd say most people weren't even really scared much, since its not like the average person was in immediate terrible danger of another terrorist attack. Now if 25% of the population went into violent thrashing comas and died, I guarantee you most of the other 75% would be scared shitless.

The perpetrators wouldn't even have to be al-Qa'ida, they could just be some crazy people. Back in the 90's some crazy Japanese group tried to gas the subways with Sarin. I'm willing to bet there's a bunch of groups out there that would do an attack like this if they could.

And inevitably, it will all come back round to the government notion of Terror = bad = impose restrictive laws on our own people.

So true. The tragedy is that these laws tend to be expensive to implement, ineffective at stopping terrorists, and actually increase the level of paranoia.

Personally, I would be more worried about all those missing Russian nukes.

Yeah, no kidding, there's the classic doomsday scenario. I was simply covering some of the ones people generally don't consider.

You look at all the possibilities and its no wonder some people get crazy paranoid. Fortunately I can go about living my life hardly ever thinking about these things

 

[Wiseman_2]

You look at all the possibilities and its no wonder some people get crazy paranoid.

I think I personally achieved "paranoid" a long time ago, it's just a matter of time before it advances to "crazy"... and it's not necessarily terrorists I'm paranoid about.

 

[Varine]

Have you actually witnessed the assembly and successful testing of a device of this type? Is it a mixture of gasoline and creamer, or are they used separately? If you're talking about some kind of high explosive mixture, I don't see how that would be possible with those materials. While gasoline can be used in binary high explosive mixtures (such as with nitrogen tetraoxide), its always mixed with oxidizers. I don't see where there's anywhere near enough oxygen in creamer... and it's not exactly a high nitrogen compound, so I don't see where there would be any explosively unstable bonds going on in the creamer itself.

Whats more likely is that its being used in some kind of primitive fuel air deflagration device, aka fireball maker. Several military manuals make use of flammable powders in designs for improvised explosive devices (you don't often hear IED in this context, but many special forces are actually trained to be able to make an IED). By explosively dispersing something like creamer, and then igniting it, you can get a pretty decent little fireball. In an enclosed space it can cause some damage since its a somewhat quick burn, maybe even knock down a wall or something. I wouldn't want to be in a room with one but its got basically zilch for true explosive power, especially when compared to car bombs being discussed in this thread... where you're talking about the overpressure alone reducing walls to dust.

The same guy who did the above car explosion also gave a demonstration on the difference between detonation and deflagration in the context of explosively dispersed fuels. The creamer bombs I've seen have been basically a powder version of the first clip in this video.

I saw it work and the demo guy told me that's what they did... I was busy, as I said, training someone to use a weapon and didn't watch them make it. It worked just fine.

I'll make one when it snows here so I don't set something on fire.