[Discussion] What makes an effective tank?

[Weep]

The role of "tank" has always seemed hard to design, to me. It almost has to contradict itself. I'd like to post some of my thoughts on the subject, and get yours.

A tank is:

• A unit that can survive a lot of damage, more than other types of units.
• Less powerful on offense than DPS-oriented units, or else there would be no point to playing the DPS units.
• Able to benefit the team by drawing enemies' attacks away from more vulnerable friendly units.

It's this last point that is the most paradoxical: it seems as though a tanking unit must be able to draw attacks despite not being the most advantageous target for the enemy. After all, if a tank can't put the enemy into a less-than-ideal situation by drawing damage away from the better targets, what good is it? But then, what would make them attack the tank?

Or if it is the best target, it might mean it's the biggest threat possible and the team would be better off composed of nothing but tanks and support (and thus removing the distinction between tank and DPS). This isn't necessarily true, but it is one angle by which to consider the design of a tank.

How can a tank get the enemy to attack it even though it would be better for the enemy to attack a more vulnerable and more dangerous teammate?

• Physically blocking enemies from being able to attack allies, like a wall, so that the tank must die, retreat, or be circumvented before the better targets can be harmed.
• Being able to interfere with an enemy offensive against allies, eg. via stun or knockback.
• Coercing enemies to attack the tank, overriding their control, ie. Taunt. (IMO, this is the least interesting idea, because it would either be of limited use against player-controlled units, or annoying in how it would deny control.)
• Buffing allies in such a way that the tank absorbs damage taken by allies.
• Creating a lot of confusion and distraction such that the enemy might not notice other allied units.

Alternately, the tank can be the most advantageous target, but only when working with DPS teammates (or, not very useful with other tanks).

What would create synergy between a tank and a DPS unit, where the tank is the preferred target for the enemies, yet it would not be better to instead field two tanks or two DPS units?

• Combining the roles of tank and support, where the tank can heal or increase the defense of allied units to the point where the tank should be killed first, although the tank by itself cannot form a significant offense.
• Finding a balance that allows a team to coordinate an attack where the tank's strength allows it to approach first, posing enough of a threat itself that it cannot be ignored yet little enough threat to incite an enemy retreat, and surviving long enough to gather attacking enemies against it. Then, when their mana is exhausted and the enemies are grouped together, the allied DPS units and nukers may head in to deal even greater damage. (Difficult to achieve this balance!)
• Being a dangerous attacking unit in a different fashion than a DPS unit, eg. being ineffective against units but destructive against buildings, so that the two units complement each other in a necessary way.
• A game mechanic where a tank would be devastatingly powerful if not attacked (eg. by giving it bonus damage against enemies that are not targeting the tank), such that in practice the tank will produce less damage than a DPS unit, but only because it was necessary for the enemy to attack the tank to impair it in a way that would not work against DPS units. Therefore, the vulnerable DPS unit remains the main damage dealer, and is made more effective than 2 DPS units by the protection of the presence of the tank.

------------

That's what I've come up with. What are your thoughts?

 

[Dirac]

This is valuable info (+ rep)

I also think of a tank as a disabler, a unit that sacrifices a lot of self dps to cc and dissipate enemy damage, and hes more likely useless without something that deals dps or heals, but essential in every group

 

[helpmeplease]

i just made a skill for my tank bases on this. lol nice

 

[Inflicted]

lol nice decription,

but a simpler one would be that a tank is something that kills fast and doesnt die easily?

 

[13lade619]

because it would either be of limited use against player-controlled units, or annoying in how it would deny control.)

if you trigger it correctly, you could completely deny control (i did it with a code i made).
and its annoyance factor is the main thing why it used.

preferably, i would make a tank hero with at least one AoE support ability for the team.

an another point is a tank will make a good initiator.
meaning if its the first one to enter battle, it'll give your team an advantage with a skill or something.

 

[Winterherz]

this is crucial for new rpg makers, +rep!

 

[13lade619]

i think another good way to differentiate a tank from dps is giving the tank longer cooldowns.

 

[Chaos_Knight]

1. Tanks should have high hp
2. Tanks should have stong defending abilities, but very weak Offensives
3. Tanks should have increased Hp reg, and no ( very small ) mana reg.
4. Tanks should have no problems taking down Bosses with a team.
5. Dps's should not take much damage on a tank.

My little suggestions.

 

[chanta45]

My opinion on tanks?

They should have quite the HP and armor, with slow heavy hitting attacks.

I would suggest either a % stun on their attacks, or an ability that reduces movement speed but increases armor and stun chance, or even an AoE ability that reduces the opponents damage.

Just things like that, the ability to alter the ebb and flow of combat, to be able to put himself in the midst of it, etc. etc.

 

[Curo]

In my opinion, the true concept of tanking is only applicable against creeps that will just be auto attacking the tank rather than the dps. If you are in a position where actual people are being forced to attack the tank, or the tank is healing the dps, you can lose balance quite easily. Every unit is meant to have strengths and weaknesses (such as dps having low health). The tank is not there to eliminate the weaknesses of the dps, but rather to force enemy players to think and co-ordinate their assaults against the proper targets. This may seem like common sense, but the number of people that just auto attack in wc3 is ridiculous, so the tank gets attacked anyways.

Also on another note, tanks can also be damage dealers. The big difference between a tank DD and a caster/ranged DD is that the tank is an easier position to die, and thus takes extra effort to be an effective DD. Usually tank DD's do their damage through attacks and stomps and such, whereas ranged/caster DD's can just press a button to nuke and stand back. While a tank may be more effective overall, you need the other "dps" units for two main reasons. First, it's a lot harder to coordinate assaults with all melee units (as they are susceptible to snare, blocking, kiting, etc), and second, it's a lot easier to spike a unit with a caster team.

The tank is meant to be the initial front-line lead in, but that's about it. A smart group of players will try to circumvent the tank. That doesn't make the tank useless though. You need to look at 3 key words in that sentence: smart, group, and try. If a player is not skilled, they will not be able to overcome the tank. If the group is not unified and has no communication, they will not be able to coordinate themselves and take out the enemy dps. And on the final point, even if the group is smart and coordinated, the tank can still be useful. Through concepts like body blocking, kiting around the tank, and direct snaring, the tank can either be forced to take the damage, at at least keep the dps out of harm's way.

The advantage of a tank is he is the one that can just stand there and attack, or chase enemies around. Most dps will be kiting a lot of the time, and with a team full of kiters, little damage will be done. And on the opposite front, if the entire team is made of tanks, they will get snared and kited to death. So a good team needs a balance of both tank and dps.

My 2 cents. +rep though, your post is nice

 

[Winterherz]

my philosophy is that all classes should feel they are overpowered, e.g. have some mini jack of all trades skills(who likes to stay on one role for 1 hour and if there weren't enough players to fill the roles, who'll play on your map?), say for e.g. tanks and support can dish out dmg 40-50% lesser than main dps, a dps's dmg is converted to heal his group for a v. small portion, although it's a different ball for a higher level content.....A. giving them lesser cooldowns(few long cooldowns) can challenge how well tanks react to a fast paced situation(this is where creativity of map makers come), pusing more buttonsfor e.g <--this is where creativity and quantity of spells come.... and if u pressed the wrong button the consequence will affect the entire group...personally i hate long cooldowns, something longer than 2-3+ min drives me nuts!

this is interesting, i'll try this on my map

A game mechanic where a tank would be devastatingly powerful if not attacked (eg. by giving it bonus damage against enemies that are not targeting the tank), such that in practice the tank will produce less damage than a DPS unit, but only because it was necessary for the enemy to attack the tank to impair it in a way that would not work against DPS units. Therefore, the vulnerable DPS unit remains the main damage dealer, and is made more effective than 2 DPS units by the protection of the presence of the tank.

 

[Slapshot136]

tanks are: slow, with no means of "chasing/escaping", usually have a stun, and usually win in a 1v1 fight if the other person dosen't run ( they should be able to run easily)

also most tanks have a cannon that shoots stuff

 

[Necrach]

I like tanks with healing spells. That means he boosts the ability to survive for his whole team, as long as he is alive, and killing him is hard because of his tank attributes. A perfect example of a tank is the melee Paladin, who heals your allies, and there is no idea to attack him because when getting to low hp he will get invurnable. And by then, enemy DPS should be down to a point where the more vurnable units are not in a big threat anymore. Death Knight with Pact works the same. Another example is the Tauren Cheftain, who have a large area stun spell together with a massive Strength value, enabling him to defend an army of ranged units perfectly.

In RPGs or maps with mostly heroes, its a little different. I think an idea is to give a higher movement speed to the heroes not meant for tanking, so that they are easier to run away with when you start damaging them, enabling you to, with some nice tactic, force the enemy to attack the tank.

 

[canons200]

to me, tank has few advantages

*common>> high HP, high armor, high HP rege, but less damage output
**able to lure or taunt the enemy to attack him, in the same hand, saving his allies from surrounded by enemy by using taunt (There is no point if you have a lot of HP and armor but enemy don't want to attack you but attack your allies)

but it also comes with disadvantages

*most of the time, tank will have to die first, because you are tanking.
*tanking job is boring, your action part take place when the boss is smacking you, you have to keep drinking potion.
*less damage output, thus making you like take-forever-to-kill the enemy, if teammate not teamwork, and kill steal you, the $ generated is very less.
*your allies mostly buy weapon or add damage item, but you buy potion, armor, and add HP item..........

Last, are you happy to tank and happy to die first???

 

[Weep]

Good input so far! Keep it coming! :thup:

Last, are you happy to tank and happy to die first???

Sure, if it keeps the team alive, I'll be happy to stand there taking swigs from a hip flask while glaives slam into my @$$... (Sorry, that's an inside joke...there was this one map I played with a very bored Blood Elf Lieutenant ignoring some pesky Glaive Throwers... )

 

[canons200]

Sure, if it keeps the team alive, I'll be happy to stand there taking swigs from a hip flask

you are such a good player, but unfortunately, you are not my game friend, most of my friend.................wanna be DPS rather than tanker, left me to do this tank..........

 

[13lade619]

Good input so far! Keep it coming! :thup:


Sure, if it keeps the team alive, I'll be happy to stand there taking swigs from a hip flask while glaives slam into my @$$... (Sorry, that's an inside joke...there was this one map I played with a very bored Blood Elf Lieutenant ignoring some pesky Glaive Throwers... )

a good tank player needs to sacrifice for the team.. a good tank player does not greed for kills.

 

[Bogrim]

I guess it depends on the game-type. In an AoS-style map, it's easy to define a tank because the AI controlled units don't pick their kills in any order, allowing even summon-type heroes to "tank" damage.