"Once upon a time..." - something different in a map

[Hegemuffin]

As far as I know, I didn't do anything to protect the map, if what you're saying is that it is protected.

On principle, I'm actually against protection, especially on single player maps with meager triggering at best (this one ), but frankly, I could care less whether it's protected or not.

Anyway, whatever you were trying to say... thanks? for notifying me?

More importantly, I'm re-uploading the edited version now, and I'd highly recommend downloading again and restarting so that you don't all get stuck at that one part.

 

[corvusHaunt]

It isn't protected. 0.o

 

[Jimpy]

Alright I just finished.. and only got called a fag 3 times!!! :O

At first I was doing everything just fine... but my tinker present got stuck and so I couldn't deal with the blue guy...

So I dropped the cheese... seems they took it, my robot was stuck and got killed...

Used iseedeadpeople to search for my cheese...

And whosyourdaddy so I wouldn't die while figuring out the blue guy part of the quest.


Over all I quite enjoyed it!

I thought it could use some more doodads for a stronger environment, feel. Also perhaps a bit more walking. I thought the kobolds should have been spread out so you sorta had to manipulate them one way, then with our Protagonist would sorta run around them one way, instead of a big run through the hordes of kobolds.

I also think the items uses should be a little more clear that they do something, took me a while to figure out they did something... But thats really just cause first time. I think after that, the player/me would be far more aware of the items I have at disposal and such.

The chat logs / messages I thought were very good, nice and characterized.
If you had them take part in an action while they wait your return it would be pretty cool, have the rabbit hop back and forth, the tinker maybe smash something in hopes of making it work.

The music I thought playing was pretty bad... It was the default human music, but I think you should make the map play something more suitable to the environment like something from the nightelves, or undead.

Also the tinkers little factory makes frog noises. Might wanna change that.


I love this idea and I would be happy to help you out if I can.

Good stuff!

 

[Hegemuffin]

Hey, Jimpy, thanks for all the feedback. I was just walking through the map with a friend and worked out all the minor kinks (getting stuck etc.), though the problem with the goblin being cornered is kind of a biggie (and not an easy one to fix ).

Let's see what else you wrote.

A lot of your commentary was aesthetic, and keep in mind that I did this in three days . So, rest assured that the final product will have an improved environment/doodads/music and such. Music was actually top on my list; I just hadn't gotten around to it yet.

As for terrain, I think you're stuck with it, just because I'm happy with it as it is and terrain is my biggest weakness. However, there is a considerable amount of space in the top left corner, so if it becomes necessary to expand so that "clocky" doesn't become cornered, you may get your wish after all .

Thanks for the pointer about the soundsets; I'll be sure to change those. And just because I think it's the only thing I haven't addressed specifically, I may or may not add activity to the NPCs.

Again, another patch will be posted presently, this one mainly dealing with minor bugs. For the rest of it though, don't let "clocky" get stuck is all I can say, or if you do, be quick with your micro and try to transfer it to Baldwin via the ground before it's destroyed or Baldwin dies .

The Hegemuffin

 

[Jimpy]

It just so happens I can terrain...

 

[Hegemuffin]

Jimpy, I appreciate your offer, but I've never done a collaborative map before and I will have to take some time to consider it. I know terraining isn't my strong point, but I also somewhat of a perfectionist and if it's not exactly how I want it, it can be... difficult. Anyway, I'll wait until morning at the very least to decide. If you strongly feel that there are current deficiencies with the terrain or that there really is a need for some sort of aesthetic improvement, though, let me know, and it will most likely influence my feeling on the matter. At the moment, I'm not taking terrain too seriously, just because it's a puzzle map, but if you really think there's something you can contribute and are willing to do a professional job, let me know, and I may be swayed to ask for your help.

Right now, though, it's just too late . Zzzzz

 

[Hegemuffin]

Hey, so does anyone have any suggestions for a soundtrack for this level? All music decisions will be made 100% by The Hegemuffin :shades:, but you're welcome to recommend anything.

I would also be willing to use different soundtracks for different stages of the level, i.e. the music might change once you let the Ogre out and such.

Cheers.

 

[Mullit]

i just downloaded and played it, it was pretty good but first time i played it i couldnt find the wrench/cheese so just ran past the kobold and freed the ogre to fight for me. the ogre died once but i just took him back to fight again once he'd been revived. i think that you shouldn't make the ogre revivable. this way you can't just rely on killing things then when you die just going back and killing a bit more. you'd actually have to figure out the puzzles.

also i thought the 'drink me' potion and the red mushroom were pretty pointless. and as jimpy said the terraining could do with a little improvement.

 

[Hegemuffin]

Err, in the most recent version, the Kobold should have Rejuvenation, which he casts on himself whenever the Ogre dies. Maybe you downloaded before I posted it. Also, I'll nerf Baldwin so the Kobold one-shots him without the Goblin to distract.

The difficulty in making a puzzle map in Warcraft III is that puzzles have to be absolute and clear-cut. There can be no room for luck or alternate solutions. However, the Warcraft III engine lends itself to interaction between units that isn't just one-shot killing etc. So, the reason why issues like this come up in the first place is that I tried to make the map as real as possible without ruining the puzzle. Clearly, things need to be changed, though, to make a completely fool-proof puzzle.

I really can't relate to your comment about Drink Me and the Red Mushroom being unnecessary, though. First of all, this is a puzzle map. In other words, you're supposed to think. It also happens to be a themed map related to children's literature, and the size change is a perfect literary reference that happens to make a good puzzle as well. So, if you didn't like it, sorry because that's what the map's about, and if you didn't get the reference, read more .

The Hegemuffin

 

[Mullit]

yeah i got the reference but it just didnt seem to be anything to do with the puzzle. Except that if you used the potion the ogre lost its attack until he ate the mushroom. i liked the map it just seemed a bit weird that the potion and mushroom had no relevance to the rest of the puzzle.

First of all, this is a puzzle map. In other words, you're supposed to think.

also, whats this got to do with the potion/mushroom comment. if you dont use the potion you dont need to think because nothing happens.

 

[Hegemuffin]

Spoiler(highlight): If you don't use the potion, you can't get out of the prison. Case closed.

 

[Jimpy]

If someone gets stuck you should use private messages to talk without possibly spoiling for too many people.

You will notice in the upper right hand corner of every page where it says in bold 'Welcome, The Hegemuffin' that there is a private messages underneath... Should show #1 since I Pm'ed ya.

 

[Sooda]

Played map, atlast good game ( a RPG !). Nice speech ( Thinker and rabbit, went back one time and looked closely was it rabbit ? Yes, it was ! WOW...)
First I didn' t understand what Thinker wanted, luckily got needed items ( First it was on ogre and nothing happent, then I but it on my human and quest went on (bug ?). About gate maybe some tip ? Gate is locked ? Tried to smash in like ordinary w3 Then got gift from Thinker and everything seemed to go nicely. Ending place was really nicley done. Ogre name is Ogre seems a bit odd perhaps name ? Add some tips what characters say if ur stuck some time like: "Lets look something (replace "something" with useful place to search). No spoilers

 

[Hegemuffin]

I'm not going to lie, Sooda, I'm a sucker for positive feedback . But about the quests and hints (or lack thereof), those are actually the most carefully designed part of the map, and that which is vague is intentionally left vague. Granted, I'm not disregarding your feedback, but I'll have to wait until a lot of people complain about any one part before changing it because I want to maintain a certian level of difficulty. If I'm going to put as much time into it as I do, at the very least it should take some time for people to complete it. Besides, it's more rewarding that way when you actually finish :shades:.

The Hegemuffin

 

[TotalGhost]

Hegemuffin or well just YOU if ya need help ill be glad to help your idea astounds me..yeah astounds! me ok? im not being sarcastic :banghead:

Nice map by the way i cant wait to see what you can come up with for the full game

Stay cool, maybe in school
This has been a post by the TotalGhost

 

[AgentPaper]

Not bad, but you really need to make it so the player knows what to do more, as most of the time I was just wandering around, trying items in different places, seeing if they did anything. The puzzles should make the player think, but providing the player with no information will merely make him wander aroundly blindly. There should also be more than just the central item-search. It should be the central, main part of the game, but there should be other things to do as well, which are not exactly required, but can help quite a bit, like giving you an item that makes you run faster, or more money.

Spoiler

Also, there is a pretty major bug/glitch: If you have the ogre fight the kobold while in the cell, and he dies, he will respawn back at the revive stone. This circumvents the whole potion/axe/re mushroom dealy. The tinker's gift is also useless, as your protagonist can just run past the kobold, which means you don't even have to do his quest.

I also reccomend making the entire map visible all the time, as this game is centered around getting the series of events right, not exploring. The inability to see what's where makes for a very frustrating process.

Overall, the game sounds like a good idea, but the puzzle you have right now is broken, and if it weren't, seems to be an exercise in blindly wandering around, trying to figure out where you use such-and-such item.

 

[Hegemuffin]

To AgentPaper:

Good job on spoiling major puzzle elements of my map without even bothering to check for recent updates. My commendations, really.

In regard to your primary point of criticism:
All issues that you mentioned pertaining to puzzle elements such as the Ogre, Tinker, and Kobold (I, for one, will remain vague) have been resolved. Try the latest version.

In regard to your claim that the player does not know what to do:
The game is about being perceptive. It is intentionally left vague.

In regard to your claim that the game is not about exploring:
Uh, if my opinion counts for anything, it is, actually, somewhat about exploring, not to mention that there are paths leading everywhere. There's no reason to give away surprises in the terrain just because someone with ADD likes to spam click and not notice the mushrooms/stones that outline exactly where Baldwin is supposed to walk.

Look, basically, I'd like to think that I'm not being defensive and that I appreciate constructive criticism. Still, I can't help but be a little angry with you when your comments have absolutely no relevance to the current version (again, thanks largely to Mullit, all of the gameplay problems you mentioned are now fixed) and when you insensitively give away the crux of the puzzle out of sheer indifference.

Try to make sure you're in the right before you make such bold and antagonistic comments.

The Hegemuffin

 

[AgentPaper]

Er, right, so much for constructive criticism. And sorry about the spoiler, had meant to turn it white, changed it now. (sorry if anyone got spoiled from it)

Anyway, I loaded the version from the link you had in the first post, which I assumed to be the latest version seeing as it was the only link to a dl in the thread (unless I missed something). In that version, the bugs I talked about were there, so I guess that was an earlier version. Sorry to bring up old bugs, but still, no reason to bite my head off...

And you missed what I was talking about before. It takes all of 2 minutes to walk the whole map, so there doesn't seem to be much to walk around for, but you don't need to take that reccomendation, it was just the feeling I got from the map. It resorted to a guessing game (for me), going to different places and trying out all my items, to see which did anything. This got kinda annoying, and I think would have been better resolved if the items themselves were more clear on what they did.

Spoiler

Now I don't mean you should have something like "this potion makes an ogre smaller". I mean, it should be able to be figured out, like the potion. Anyone who has seen alice in wonderland, or read the book, will instantly know what the potion does. An example of something unclear would be the cheese, which I had no idea what to do with, and actually never used it. You could put some kind of clue in the description, though, like: "Kobold's favorite treat!" (that may be a bit too clear, but you get the idea)
[/Spoiler

 

[Hegemuffin]

The link in the initial post is in fact the only link to the map. However, because it's not a direct dl and merely links to a dl page on wc3sear.ch, I regularly update the map on wc3sear.ch instead. Each time I do so, I make an edit that gives a general idea of what I've changed. Anyway, you didn't use the wrong dl; you probably just didn't dl it as recently as you could have.

I didn't miss what you were talking about before. I just didn't address it specifically because I didn't intend to do anything about. To clarify, though: I can definitely see where you're coming from, and I realize that when you don't see something right away, it can become a guessing game. However, even if you only see something after the fact, it should still leave you feeling "Oh, that makes sense now," because everything should make sense, even if it's only in a weird, convoluted sort of way. In regard to the instance you mentioned,

Spoiler: I believe it should be enough of a hint that the Warcraft III Kobolds do look somewhat like rats, and even if that doesn't tell you intuitively, there's the aura buff that shows up on the Kobold, which you probably didn't check and which reads "Pungent Aroma - This unit is inhaling a Pungent Aroma. It is wildly attracted to the source of the smell." I mean, come now, even if you had to be perceptive enough to notice the aura buff in the first place (which is exactly what this game is about), don't tell me that's not enough of a clue.

Basically, to summarize, I understand that not everything is as intuitive as you would like, and different people are better or worse at seeing things at first glance. However (and this is an exaggeration), I do not want this to be dumbed down to the level of a campaign, where everything is spelled out for you. Why? Because in a campaign, the difficulty lies in the fighting or doing whatever it is you're supposed to be doing. Here, the only obstacle is simply in understanding what you're supposed to do. Now, if you only want an RPG, which is what the map would be otherwise, that's your opinion, but frankly, I don't fancy the idea of tediously constructing an elaborate storyline that takes me a month for me to do in the format of a video game when I could easily write a novel for all of you to read. Hence, forgive me if I like to put the "G" in "RPG."

Naturally, I don't expect you to agree with me based off of this post alone. However, I hope that we can agree to disagree and move on peacefully. I realize that you may have perceived my first post as unwarrantedly harsh, but it was only a response to what I perceived as an unwarrantedly thoughtless criticism. Since you were clearer in expressing your ideas in your second post, I hope I was clearer, albeit firmer, in expressing my disagreement, not to mention more polite, even if it was a sort of cold formality.

The Hegemuffin

PS Please add spoiler tags and white coloring to your last post. It doesn't really help to apologize for and fix your first post when your second completely reverses all the work you did.

 

[AgentPaper]

Ok, can't beleive I forgot again :banghead: , I'm just gunna not bring up spoilers...

Anyway, I see what you mean, and while I do disagree on some points, It's your game, so you don't have to listen to me.

Nothing else to point out atm, but I do sill hope to help you later on, if I can.