"Once upon a time..." - something different in a map

[Hegemuffin]

Hi all,

I happen to be new to this site, though I'm a relatively experienced Warcraft III mapper. Nonetheless, I have taken advantage of The Helper's various tutorials and other resources on numerous occasions, so I thought I'd post my latest project for some public scrutiny and as a way of contributing somewhat to the community.

Basically, I intend to begin work on a single player, RPG/puzzle-style campaign with a heavy emphasis on the puzzle component, e.g. typical RPG-style leveling and fighting will be relatively unimportant to achieving victory.

That said, the basic premise of the map is to draw largely from fairy tales, fables, children's literature, and a few adult literary odds and ends. I don't want to reveal what I have so far, since I want the map to be a surprise when it's released (especially as it's puzzle oriented), but what I mean by "draw largely from..." is that the map will feature references from literature but not necessarily be dictated by the plot of said literature, e.g. I happen to have characters taken from Alice in Wonderland, but the plot of the game does not follow Alice in Wonderland at all.

Anyway, I suppose I'm just posting for some encouragement or general support, but if any of you have suggestions as to what you'd like to see in the game, those of you who are interested, please feel free to respond. I have all summer for this, so I intend for it to be good.

Thanks for reading.

The Hegemuffin

Oh, and lastly, just in case any of you do take this seriously enough to post , here are the works I will be referencing so as to give you some idea of what to expect and also a list of topics I've already considered:

Alice in Wonderland (Lewis Carroll)
Through the Looking Glass (Lewis Carroll)
The Lost Years of Merlin (TA Barron)
The Lady and the Tiger (Frank Stockton)
Jack and the Beanstalk (traditional)
Puss in Boots (traditional)
Ender's Game (Orson Scott Card)
Don Quixote (Miguel de Cervantes)
Four and Twenty Blackbirds (traditional)
Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came (Robert Browning)

So, uh, yea, that's random for you, but it all works, trust me .

Cheers,

The Hegemuffin

edit: Chapter One is now complete! Since the map is 2.3 MB, however, and the limit for a .w3x file on these forums is 1.9 MB, I have taken the liberty of uploading it to wc3sear.ch, and you can download it here. Sorry for the inconvenience.

edit 2: There's one major issue with the puzzle at the moment because at a certain part, unless you figure out everything intuitively in under 30 seconds, you're basically screwed for next 30 minutes (which will most likely consist of you fruitlessly dying and reviving over and over again). So, I am currently updating the map to address this complication. For the moment, though, I'd advise just saving and loading once you get stuck but have everything figured out (unless you actually want to waste 30 minutes of your life). Sorry I couldn't be more specific, but I didn't want to give away too much of the puzzle.

edit 3: For those of you who downloaded before this edit was made, please take the time to re-download again (a patched version is out). It will save you all a lot of frustration, and it will save me a lot of frustration as well in answering your questions. Hopefully, there's only that one major issue and the rest is playable.

edit 4: Here we have what's hopefully a final patch where I've fixed a number of issues with units becoming stuck, along with a few other bugs. I've also removed all of the Kobolds aside from the one with the Gloves as they're just rather unnecessary and get in the way. As usual, if this wasn't here when you downloaded, you might want to try it again :shades:. Very good. Signing off... Zzzzz

edit 5: OK, this is really the last patch, or what should be, at least . Mainly, it's for aesthetics, and I've smoothed out some of the quests, changed the units a bit, and added appropriate soundsets for most units. I'm still working on the music aspect.

edit 6: Patched again! This time I resolved two issues presented by Mullit, one of which I never fully tested and am not sure if I believe , but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and apologize for my harsh words .

edit 7: All right, this most recent patch has turned the map into what really is, in my opinion, a quality product. I've reworked how the dialogues function so that the player is forced to read all the important text (said text also went into the Quest Menu a patch or two ago, so be sure to check that out). Finally, I've made the puzzle smoother and more clear-cut so that the importance of each puzzle element is made abundantly clear. This will probably be the last patch for a while, and I should put down the time for anyone who wants to know whether they have the most recent version. To this end, it is now approximately 2:45 PM, EST, (GMT - 5).

Coming soon: An improved and flashier terrain, brought to you by Jimpy, who has now officially joined the project as the new terrain consultant (Jimpy, I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of assigning you that title ). That's all folks!

edit 8: Fixed some typos, grammar, and one small bug but hardly anything worth downloading again.

 

[corvusHaunt]

Really neat idea!

Don Quixote = Awsome.

Remember, anything you might need help with, just ask us.

 

[Hegemuffin]

Well, here's a question .

I just completed the terrain for the first chapter of the game, which I intend to be in a campaign format. However, I was thinking that since it's a puzzle map, a large terrain could be somewhat distracting or misleading. The first level is a dungeon, and right now it looks kind of like a scaled down Warcraft III campaign underground level. Still, because there's not a lot of fighting/random mobs, the traveling room is sort of unnecessary.

So, now that I've framed the situation, again, to my question: Should I keep it as a larger map in which you walk a lot and admire the scenery but where you interact in only a few small spaces? Or should I change it to something where there's a representative terrain for traveling, e.g. something very small and simple where you move your character from X to Y and don't worry about doing anything along the way, and then have certain landmarks where the character stops and does the puzzle part of the map? I suppose it would be somewhat like a Final Fantasy map, which I watched a friend play once, where you use one character to move for your party and then when you encounter monsters you switch to a little battle terrain with all your party members present.

Feedback would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

The Hegemuffin

 

[H5N1]

For a WC3 map I would think keep it on the smallish side. But you would want to be able to fight monsters, maybe even do a couple side quests along the way. Perhaps try and find a mid point.

Also, from playing a lot of adventure games back in the day I think the hardest part about making them is probably designing good puzzles. This is going to be extra hard in WC3 since it doesn't give you a lot of object manipulation. In bad adventure games the puzzles would usually be infuriating or too easy. The best ones have them flow with the story. In a WC3 campaign I would make sure some of your puzzles involve killing things, since it adds some skill and excitement to it (also this is the engine's strength).

It's sounds pretty cool though, good luck.

 

[Hegemuffin]

OK, thanks for the feedback. I will try to keep the terrain on a reasonable scale.

Also, the puzzles are what I've come closest to working out already, thankfully, and I'm going to try to steer away from combat as much as possible, mainly because as I wrote initially, I don't want it to be about becoming stacked or killing such and such a boss. However, there will be a lot of real time "escaping," which should lend some excitement; in other words, it's a kill or be killed environment, but most of the time you're not in a position to do the killing. There will, however, still be bosses to defeat; it's just that they will most often be defeated through dash cunning knavery as opposed to balls out rampaging.

 

[Hegemuffin]

OK, all, it looks like I finally have something of relevance to post, relevance to the community, that is . Basically, the first chapter of the campaign is nearly complete, and I'm starting to think about the project as a whole. Perhaps most importantly, I'm not even sure yet whether it will be a campaign or just one big map, but I'll wait until the first chapter is finalized to start considering that seriously. More importantly, though, I need a good loading screen, and, if it is to be a campaign, one of those "main campaigns" pages where you can see all the missions. That's a technical term.

So, to summarize, I need an artist who would be willing to take part in this project and come up with a good design for the loading screen. Whether or not there will be multiple chapters shouldn't matter too much, as I can use pretty much the same screen for all of them. I'm also pretty open in terms of the style, though it should leave the bottom right corner open for text. Even if it's just an appropriate image in place of the minimap preview, that would be fine. Ideally, though, there'd be a picture in the background, too.

Anyway, I don't want to be too demanding before I even have any subscribers, so I'll wait until someone volunteers to give out the details.

Thanks again to you all for being an incredibly helpful and supportive forum community.

The Hegemuffin

 

[Rinpun]

Well, I'm not too much of an artist, but it was an intriguing idea of yours and I felt like making a simple loading screen anyways.

What do you think?

(It's kept in a .psd, by the way, so if you wanted to change the text for chapters or whatever, you can).

 

[Hegemuffin]

Wow, Rinpun, that is both nothing of what I had in mind and yet still incredible. Thank you so much!

And to anyone else who might be interested, I'm definitely doing a campaign now, so a "main screen," as I call it, is still in demand!

The Hegemuffin

PS Oh, and incidentally, the first chapter is now 99.99% done. I will be posting it here sometime tomorrow as a demo for the rest of the campaign.

 

[Jimpy]

I much prefer the idea of a bit of a longer walk with the terrain instead of puzzle after puzzle. (Or fight or w/e)

The terrain would need to be well done though and have movement to keep the player interested. Perhaps still have things going on that are in no way depremental to the game... Like having birds fly around quickly which if you time right.. you can kill for some sort of bonus. | Yay bird killing.

Kinda like an optional side quest you can do while traveling.

 

[mik19]

PS Oh, and incidentally, the first chapter is now 99.99% done. I will be posting it here sometime tomorrow as a demo for the rest of the campaign.

Sweet!!! cant wait to try it out.

I'll be happy to make abillitys, or items for the game.
But Im not much of an expert.

 

[Hegemuffin]

New question .

Since the first chapter is fairly short and shouldn't take too long to complete, should I make it so that if you die, you die? Or so that if you die you just keep reviving until you finish the level? A friend mentioned yesterday that the "cardinal rule of puzzle games is that you can't lose," but that also seems kind of anti-Warcraft. I suppose you'll all be able to judge better when I put up the map, but it also poses an issue because you're either supposed to beat the baddies without losing much HP (if you do things correctly) or it will take around ten minutes longer than it should if you mess up (and keep reviving). So, for what should be a twenty to thirty minute level, reviving might be more of a pain in the ass then just letting you start over. I don't know.

Opinions on the general idea? Again, I'll try to have something concrete for you soon, but being a perfectionist, I don't want to release anything that's not a polished product .

 

[Rinpun]

Reviving continuously would be nice. Just make some of your puzzles take a kind of repetition that doesn't leave room for dying. Some puzzles are like "step in one circle or another. One will hurt, the other will take you further". Reviving will make it so that a bad guess doesn't make you have to do the whole map over again, which would suck, but the solution to the puzzle is quickly found. Thus, you'll definitely want to make a few long puzzles that you have to start over from the puzzle's beginning if you die.

 

[Hegemuffin]

OK, the map is effectively done; I'm just waiting for an appropriate loading screen with which to release it .

That said, to Rinpun or anyone else who might be willing to help (Basically, I'm quite the noob when it comes to graphics, so bear with me):

1) What is a .psd exactly (Photoshop Drawing is my guess?) because if it is a Photoshop file I can't open it (with Photoshop at least).

2) I love Rinpun's sample (as I've already mentioned), but I need something a little more defined for the actual screen. In other words, his picture is excellent in terms of a vague idea of the map, but for a more appropriate loading screen, I'm going to need text and images that are a little different. So, in terms of specific criteria:
-The actual campaign name will be "Once upon an RPG" (sorry for the confusion, but I had no idea what it would be when I created this thread).
-The loading screen should incorporate in some format the words "Chapter <<Number>> - <<Title>>," where the number is written out (example: "Chapter One - Down the Rabbit Hole").
-In terms of images, I like the puzzle, and I like the book. Since it's not going to be called "Once upon a time," though, the hourglass is a little irrelevant (sorry ).
-If the current book image stays, the text should be blurred, except for those first, bolded letters, which should read, naturally, "Once upon an RPG..." This is simply so that I don't have to type out summaries of every stupid chapter for the sake of anyone anal enough to squint and try to make out the actual wording.
-My actual alias is "The Hegemuffin," but it was too long for this site. And yes, I do want to be credited on the loading screen in some discreet way. Sorry for the confusion .

3) Lastly, I know I outlined most of my criteria in terms of work that Rinpun has done already. However, I do not mean in any way to put unnecessary demands on you, Rinpun, or to imply that I expect you to improve your image or that that's even the one I'm going to use. It's simply the only sample I have to work with, so naturally my comments revolve around that. Similarly, to anyone else who might be interested: Please, feel free to make a completely different loading screen. So long as it's tastefully done and meets my criteria, it should be fine. In fact, the best loading screen would be one in which I could type the "Chapter <<Number>> - <<Title>>" part in the Editor, along with a description, where the loading screen text normally goes, i.e. a "background"-style image that simply has the "Once upon an RPG" part and my name.

4) Of course, anyone who makes a loading screen can incorporate their own name into the design, so long as, again, it is discreet and does not draw attention away from the rest of the image.

5) Know that I am also approaching outside sources about creating a screen (simply for efficiency's sake), so, simply because you're the first or best on this site does not mean I can necessarily guarantee you the screen. I'm sorry about that and for anyone who puts seemingly unrewarded effort into this. Still, I will be completely fair and unbiased in choosing the best screen offered at any one time (meaning the screen can be updated, too, if someone comes out with a better one).

Please don't consider me in any way "bossy" or "demanding" in regard to this. I would be happy even if no one cooperated. I just wanted to make clear my requirements to give anyone interested a better idea of what to do.

Cheers,

The Hegemuffin

 

[Mullit]

i think having to start the map over everytime you die would be pretty rubbish. it'd probably be better to revive them at the start of the puzzle that they failed on. also you might wanna give them lives, and only when they lose all their lives they get sent back to the start of the map.

 

[Hegemuffin]

Hey, good news:

I finally got tired of asking for stuff and made a pretty sweet load screen on my own :shades:. OK, it probably took me a couple more hours than it should have, but considering that I've never done imaging before, I'm pretty happy with myself .

Thanks to SD_Ryoko for his tutorial.

The map should now be up in the next hour.

The Hegemuffin

 

[Hegemuffin]

Bump for map posting (read edit at bottom of initial post).

 

[corvusHaunt]

Okay I played the map. I like it.

Except. Either I am just a n00b, or there is no way to win. My silly Unwilling Protraganist can't attack!

And whenever I try to get the gloves, the kobolds beat me up

So....

 

[Hegemuffin]

There is, in fact, a point at which the game becomes nearly unbeatable. I am currently addressing this and should have a patched version of the map up in 15 minutes. It sounds like you're well before that, however, in which case I can only say, "keep trying."

To reassure you, though, Baldwin is not supposed to be able to attack, hence why it's a puzzle game. You have to use brains to get past the kobolds.

Really, though, when I say it's a "demo," I don't mean that it's some crappy beta version that no one's going to enjoy. I really do intend for it to resemble the finished product, and after the patch, I think it should.

Lastly, when you do figure it out, and this applies to everyone, *PLEASE* no spoilers. This kind of map takes a long time to make and is over way too soon. Spoilers ruin it for people playing it, as well as for me, looking back over the three days I spent making the map.

So, good luck to all.

The Hegemuffin.

 

[corvusHaunt]

So you are calling me a n00b? I see.

*sigh* I looked everywhere!!!
I'll try again.

 

[Jimpy]

Nvm Opened it up in a queer way...