Advantages and disadvantages of races?

[XXXconanXXX]

I was wondering, who goes good and who goes bad against which races? I forgot which races are good and bad against the others. I know Orc can only be mowed over with magic, so that gives Humans an advantage. So, do you know which races are good against who?

 

[DM Cross]

I think it all comes down to how each race is played...I mean, I have a friend who plays Undead like an Orc team: He goes for pure strength. Well, when you're rushing someone with a bunch of Ghouls that take a good 4-5 hits and are done, that's hard to do And I thought Orcs weren't great against, say, the Night Elves, because they're mostly ground forces? (And Ensnare is a pain in the butt to target and whatever)

Humans are probably the most diverse, and easy to use races. They have some frontal assault, some air units, some seige, and some magic. Undead is PROBABLY the more complicated race to use, because they have 3 resources instead of 2. Gold, lumber, and bodies. They use corpses in so many of their spells. Meat Wagons use them, Aboms and Ghouls use them, Necromancers and the Death Knight use them, etc etc. Night Elves are really fast strikers, and, in my opinion, are the hardest to use Typically I'm Orc because if I get into a bind, I can sort of substitute strategy for just massing up Grunts and forcing my way. But I try do have my own ways of doing things.

So, like I said (...notice how short THIS part of the message is, and after I just finished that big long thing! JEES! ) in my opinion, it matters how you use the race...What's your typical strategy?

Alexander

 

[XXXconanXXX]

Typical? Well, I'm a defensive Undead guy who builds anti - rush in the beginning, then mass Crypt Fiends + Necromancers. I usually also keep most necs at home to defend (With Skellys) while my Crypts + Lich + CL attack and creep. Most people I fight attack right after I do, and that's why I keep a few back.

I'm getting more into Orcs, using a defensive strategy and massing Troll Zerks with a few Troll potion guys (Whatever they're called) and some Tauren. I suck though, but Melee is getting mroe and more fun, so I want to get good and know the good strategies.

~Thanks

 

[DM Cross]

Hmm, I used to be Undead, and I was all about the Skeletons. My typical army would be about 3 Crypt Fiends, my hero (typically the Dreadlord), 3-4 Abominations, anywhere from 5-9 Ghouls, 3 Meat Wagons and 4-5 Necromancers...Now, all that's a LOT of fire power when you think about it, but you have to play it right. Necromancers are strong spellcasters, but they're also high priority, and players who are smart will go after them. Keep them back, BEHIND the Meat Wagons, and you CAN autocast Raise Dead, but I do it manually. Then you rush the Skeletons forward and suddenly you went from 19-25, to 38-50 units! Plus, when you get Skeletal Mastery and get the Skeleton Mages, flying units have a harder time flying over the battle to find and kill your Necromancers. But you still have to have great control over them.

Now for Orcs, here's a few things I cannot go without:
Pillage. A lot of Orcs units cost a LOT of money, and Pillage is an EXCELLENT way to get it. I don't know if you saved the game you and I played on NAoW, but the only custom unit I used was my hero. So you can see what I did with that.
Bloodlust. This spell is one of the most powerful spells in the game, and a good 3 Shamen can lust your ENTIRE army! But make sure you control them VERY well, or, like the Necromancers, you're screwed.
Raiders. Raiders are sometimes my ONLY defense against air, so I always get the Ensnare upgrade. Try to have anywhere from 3 (small army) to 5 of these guys, because they're kinda fragile. Compared to the Grunt, anyway...

Now, there's a few other AWESOME abilities you can also use to your advantage:
War Drums. But try to control the Kodo, since he's slow and a high priority. People like to use siege units to kill him from afar.
Healing Ward. Man, just about every time I've had a miracle, these wards were it! What a difference they make, but again, control the spell casters. Especially these guys. Actually, I run them off once they've set down their ward, sometimes all the way back to base!
Now, for air units, I highly suggest Berzerkers and Wind Riders. A lot of people like the Batriders, but in order to do some SERIOUS damage, you need to use that suicide spell they have to blow them up. The Wind Riders are a lot more durable, and the Zerkers are more capable of bringing down a unit, and a lot faster sometimes

As for heroes, it's anyone's choice. Orcs have great heroes. I use the Far Seer first, and specialize in Feral Spirit. This is because, as I'm sure you noticed, I rush at the first night with my 3-4 Grunts (BTW, NAoW has longer days and nights, that's why I had so many ) and my hero, and the extra 2 units don't hurt! Then you get Chain Lightning to deal some damage, ESPECIALLY to Ghouls, Archers, or Militia, if the Humans have to resort to that. Then Earthquake is just devestating later on.

BTW, a comment about your defense in NAoW. It was awesome that you had so many burrows, but don't make so many Watch Towers...In a normal melee game, they're not that useful, though a few (2-4) are fine. Also, try to put something in FRONT of your Burrows, so units have to walk around that building to get to them. Keep in mind that (I think, anyway) Burrows and Watch Towers don't have Fortified armor UNTIL you get Reinforced Defenses, so they're not great against NORMAL units.

Anyway, that's my advice for Orcs. I had more, but I don't want to bore you or anything

Alexander
Wow, I talked too much...

 

[XXXconanXXX]

I just won a game between a normal AI computer, with about 5 shamans and 3 level 8 heroes. Far Seer, Troll Headhunter dude, and Blademaster with Bladestorm. Orc suck against magic attacks, and shaman had Bloodlut so I was able tot ake out his 3 level 10 heroes and huge army of tauren with those three. Blademaster would be Bladestormw hile Troll Mage would use a pot of invulnerability then use Big Bad Voodoo which made my whole army invulnerable, then Shaman would cast Bloodlust and WAM! I beat him to a pulp. So, I'm getting better but I still suck. I'm going to go play with my level 50 friend, Jeff and he's gunna show me the ropes.

~Thanks for the advice

 

[DM Cross]

...Um, I thought the Troll's ult CANCELLED all effects on the Troll to keep people from doing that? Lol, guess not!

Yeah, that's a great strategy, but it's not always going to work. You can't tell if you'll have a potion of invunerable every game, and you also can't tell that the other played won't be riding your rear end from the first night

So try to shy away from unecessary insane ideas

Alexander

 

[Demonfaze]

Ok..umm...

Humans are one of the hardest races to play as because they have many spell-casters.
Orcs are probably the easiest race to play as because grunts have so much hit points and decent attack. Their heroes are pretty easy to use as well.
Night Elves are medium difficulty. Huntresses are great against melee but when up against range, their unarmored armor really takes a beating from piercing damage. Archers, you need a little micro to keep them alive. They have things like DoTT and DoTC which look hard to micro at first, but are actually easy since you can basically micro a group of 12 at the same time.
Undead difficulty depends on how you use them. If you want to do a ghoul rush with either dread lord or death knight then they are pretty easy. Same goes for fiends&frosts. All you have to do is have a quick hand and fast reflexes. But if you want to do something with necromancers or meat wagons which require corpses then it gets harder. Destroyers are also semi-hard to micro for the .... average ... player.

-Demonfaze

 

[XXXconanXXX]

Thanks for the advice!

I've noticed that mage armies are ALOT harder to control. I was able to defend well with Grunts and Troll Zerks, but when I had Shamans and Troll Mages (THat was my whole army) with the Troll Mage hero and Far Seer it was alot harder to keep them aliev and use them effectively. But when you do, they can pwn jsut about anything on the feild.

 

[DM Cross]

Um, Con? Spellcasters are meant to be a support group, not the army! See, the cool thing in NAoW is Humans can get away with that now, with their Battle Magic. Unless you're fighting all Spell Breakers or something

Anyway, in normal melee maps, you need to balance your army with spell casters in the back, and controlling them, and sometimes you can just let your melee units hack and slash through Like what I did to you! Naw, only kidding with you...

But yeah, it's hard to win with all spellcasters because spell casters aren't MEANT to be the whole army. Your first defense should always be the Grunts/Ghouls/Footmen/or in my opinion, Huntresses...Then you worry about some ranged, then some casters. Lastly, you start bringing out the big guns Tauren, Frosties, Grpyhons, and Chimera are all amazing as hell, and you should have a few if the game lasts that long. But try not to go on ONLY spell casters. They're too fragile for that

Alexander

 

[XXXconanXXX]

Um, Con? Spellcasters are meant to be a support group, not the army! See, the cool thing in NAoW is Humans can get away with that now, with their Battle Magic. Unless you're fighting all Spell Breakers or something

That must be why I suck. I always only have about 5 grunts or melee blockers (Most of the time with Undead, jsut a few weak Ghouls) and the rest is high level heroes and magi.

 

[DM Cross]

Lol, think about it like this:

Spellcasters spend hours of reading books, researching spells, and then trying them out. Where, in all that, do they get time to pratice good combat? That's why most of them are ranged, so they can stay a bit away from the fight. Their range is only average so that they're not completely safe, like siege units CAN be, depending on the situation.

Ghouls are great, but try to get up to Abominations. They're tons better!

And to Demonfaze, sorry I didn't see that post before:

You're right, using the corpse strategy with Necro's and Meat Wagons is very hard, and can be very risky. If they somehow manage to kill your Necromancers before you get a lot of skeletons, you might not have enough force to mow them over, and you might get screwed. It's a chance you have to take.

To add onto that strategy, you want to concentrate on the melee upgrades, as that effects the Skeletons, even the Mages! But don't completely ignore the ranged units, as you need Fiends until you GET mages. At the very least, try to up their defense a bit.

Alexander

 

[XXXconanXXX]

You know Alexander, you rock. You've helped me a bunch with ideas and helping me on melee. You know what? In my map, I'll have a fade filter which sais "ALEXANDER PWN J00 ALL11!!" in big bold letters flashing on the screen.

 

[DM Cross]

...Wow...That worries me slightly...Lol, um, thanks?!

Rofl, as for ideas, I'm a writer with 14 books to write. I almost have more books then years alive! -.- Naturally, I don't mind sharing a few. And I help where I can, which is more ideas then triggers, and strategy, well, I play orcs and I used to play undead, so that's what I know. If you ask about Humans and Night Elf, I have no idea.

Alexander

 

[Shadowy Fear]

This should be renamed the melee help thread

So why am I revivng it ...

Orcs: I find that bat riders are good as reserve troops. Their burning oil can cripple towers, but their atack isnt that great and you could do the same with the catupults and their burning oil. They let you get a bit more flexible when sieging (AAAA HE JUST FLEW OVER THE MOUNTAINS FROM BEHIND -_-) but otherwise they are best left alone (as in not build) or for use in dire situations only . After all, trolls are SOO patriotic that theyll die to moderately damage a frost wyrm, eh?
You know, when the wyrms were alive, they probably ATE the bats ...

 

[unnamed]

NightElf vs Orc: NE own orc, if u have a good micro. U just need tire 2 to destroy orc. Archers, dots and dryads own orc. Just dont give them time to get dots sharmans and taurens. Atk at soon as u have 4 dots and 3 dryads.

NightElf vs Human: If ur a good human, u shoudl tower rush NE, because NE is the easyest race to tower rush by human. If u dont tower rush them, its a little harder, because if u use casters, they get ferries dragons and own u. Mortal team, rifles, socs are good against NE. Just dont let them get bears. Bears own human. But, if they got bears use bs, because they have feedback, and the bears have a lot of mana.

NightElf vs Undead: Dont use fiends if NE is using archers, dots and dryads(3 range). Try to get aboms, dystroyers.Lich is a good second hero against NE. Just lvl him up, but never get lich as a first hero. If u wana use lich, get dr as first hero.

NightElf vs NightELf: Kotg with hunters and sieges is the best combination. If he use hunts too, get dryads fast. If he use range, get sieges fast, and dont let him get 3 range, because 3 range owns hunts.

Orc vs Human: Human owns orc beacause. If ur human, get Am with Mk and rifles with casters. Caster is the best way to win against orc, beacuse socs own orc. Dont let him get sharmans and docs. Orc can still use scroll of speen, but many orcs dont use that.( Never tower rush human, because they use militzia and ur dead)

Orc vs Undead: Orc owns UD. If ur orc, get grunts and riders. Dont get casters if they use dystroyers. UD can use necs agains orc, but only if he had good heros, to stop the spirit walkers from dispeling the skeletons. Dystroyers can kill spirit walkers fast too.

Orc vs Orc: Dont go air!!! Use mass units and sharmans. Use Grunts-rigers. Many players go air in orc vs orc, so be sure that u have many riders.


Human vs Undead: If ur human its easyer. If they use ghouls use Sky stream( rifels, priests, and socs), and get some aa later. If ur UD, never use necros against human. Get fiends and stats to destroyers. U need to micro ur units verry well.

Human vs Human. Get second mine fast!!! Use militia to get it. Dont let the enemy to get second mine and to creep. Use footman to priests and knights. If they use same, get some air( and upgrade theyr skill, because theyr skill)

NE vs Orc: NE owns
NE vs Hum: Ne owns
NE vs UD: UD owns ( use Dark Ranger if u r NE)
Orc vs UD: orc owns
Orc vs Hum: hum owns
Ud vs hum: almost the same.

If ur NE, tavern heros r bether!!

 

[SD_Ryoko]

I played a LOT of ladder - I dont think one race owns any other.

When the game starts, theres a quick 20 second discussion (or SHOULD be) about what units your race is making.

Either melee, casters, air.

Then decide, Rush, or CC (creep then counter).

The ideal is to find a blend of all three. Meat for the front line, anti air in the back, and casters throughout.

Typically, if any one element is missing, you lost.

Then later you adjust - after you know what they are making.

If there going necros, you know you need either dispell or statues.

If there going air, you'll need more shotties or dryads.

If it wern't for latest patches, you could still watch my replay where I defeat three people on my own with a rush. My teamates left after making starting units.

 

[SD_Ryoko]

NE vs Orc: NE owns
NE vs Hum: Ne owns
NE vs UD: UD owns ( use Dark Ranger if u r NE)
Orc vs UD: orc owns
Orc vs Hum: hum owns
Ud vs hum: almost the same.

NE vs Orc: NE can hardly deal with a juggy harass. Starting archers are crap and especially if they lose a couple wisps. NE doesn't stand a chance against a grunt rush either. NE only has a chance late game, and the dryads hardly counter bloodlust at all.

Bloodlust is the most overpowered buff in the game. 3v3 with lust? gg.

In my opinion, anyone who doesn't go lust in a team game is an....err...needs to practice more.

Orc vs UD: Perhaps you forget undeads workers and farms are the best. Orcs can't rush an undead; the 1 tower you made and the 4-5 gouls own them. In this scenario, orc can only defend or hope for late game. Orcs only have a melee advantage late game, and necros fix that. I dont see spirit walkers too often.

Ud vs hum: No where close. Humans have way better casters, and dispel totally defeates undead. Even if undead goes melee or air, the sorceress slow ruins the game. Possesion is useless; a few stolen sorc or shotties changes nothing.

NE vs Hum: Not if the human goes knights and shotties. NE melee can't compete with knights, and the shotties will clean up anything else.

 

[XXXconanXXX]

Is it true that Orc have the best heroes late game? I'm a big creeper, I immediately get Crtypt Lord and 2 Ghouls and go after one of the green dot creep camps. I then get a DK and creep two level five while I defend with towers and necros with a graveyard (Necros with Graveyard = total defense)

Here's a replay of a solo I did yesterday, and won. Alexander said my creeping rocked but I spent to much on upgrades. This is usually how I play, any suggestions?

http://rapidshare.de/files/1477458/Cryp_DK_ownage_replay.w3g.html

 

[DM Cross]

Erm, I didn't say too much on upgrades. I said too much on a town defense, and maybe not enough on an attacking force. Units can defend a town as well as towers, my friend, and the cool part: They can move! *Everyone in room gasps*

Anyway, I think you did a good job creeping. Now, had the other person not started 7 minutes late, you might have had more of a problem. I don't think you've ever done a lot of creeping when I played, but that's because I rush.

As for Orcs having the best late game Heroes, it matters on the situation and stuff like that. You can never really tell...

@Ryoko: As for bloodlust, deffinately agree. If there's a 3v3 game, and one player is Orc, and doesn't bother with Bloodlust, you're an idiot. Hell, you can do bloodlust on 1v1, but I typically don't. I can pull off a win with Grunts, Raiders, Kodo's and a hero.

Alexander

 

[XXXconanXXX]

It's usually becuase it'sz not an official melee game, so I'm not as nervous and don't split my time as much. In that match my main focus was to keep my town upgraded and producing units while I creeped, nbut in normal games with friends I usually either creep and leave my town alone or do the exact opposite. My heart's starts pounding before I attack or when they attack, does that sound weird?

My pro friend showed me how to evade and defend against rushes with Undead, but I've never been undead when playing against you Alexander. Bedt way is to first build three Nerubian towers around your central structure then get lots of Ghouls and DK. I usually go Crypt and Crypt LOrd. Cryp Lord is so awesome, he's my new best friend.