Minigame Pudge Wars Advanced

TDN

New Member
Very very nice. I don't think it works in older wc3 versions but fortunately I just upgraded to v1.24

The blades of fury that sometimes surround a butcher (Blade barrier?) causes quite a lot of lag. Just pointing that out.

Also noticed that the item that is meant to increase the speed of your hook actually reduces its speed instead.

I remember in the original map there were upgrades to increase the speed of your hook, its AoE, range, etc. - I'll just assume you haven't gotten around to adding those features yet rather than completely forgetting about them. :cool:

Looking forwards to new updates.
 

BlackRose

Forum User
Also noticed that the item that is meant to increase the speed of your hook actually reduces its speed instead.
Well, there isn't any item that increases hook, there is Barathrum's Lantern, which deals additional damage proportional to your hook speed but I can't imagine it slowing down hook speed o_O

I remember in the original map there were upgrades to increase the speed of your hook, its AoE, range, etc. - I'll just assume you haven't gotten around to adding those features yet rather than completely forgetting about them.
It's Damage, Range, Radius, and Speed. I'm pretty sure they are in there, it's in the hero skill tab.

The blades of fury that sometimes surround a butcher (Blade barrier?) causes quite a lot of lag. Just pointing that out.
What was the circumstance? Since I usually test things with about 4 players (usually AI when they are not available) and all runs smoothly.

Thanks for the feedback :)
 

Zack1996

Working on a Map
EPIC! The new item was really neat. It was really funny when I got a headshot with my three little Pudges.

The early levels of Phantom's Lance is pretty lackluster, but it becomes extremely powerful later on. I really like how well it reflects Phantom Lancer (although PL has pretty decent early game :p)

Anyway, the AI makes it easy to test things with. Somehow, I seem to get damaged twice by a single attack for some reason. I'm not sure if it really happened, but it felt like it did.

I really enjoyed the changes, but I have some small suggestions:
The Dialogs are kinda cramped. You could reduce the length of the title of the dialog or something so it fits nicely into the box.
 

TDN

New Member
What was the circumstance? Since I usually test things with about 4 players (usually AI when they are not available) and all runs smoothly.
Blade barrier causes the main bunch of lag, I'm sure. Anyway...

Denies:
Players should be able to disable allies from denying them by entering a code (having an ally denying you when you still have 6000+ HP is not fun)
Revive time should be cut in half if you are denied (better balance)

Lag:
Blade fury is really lagging things up, I get about 1 FPS and the game becomes unplayable. I can't even count how many times I've died from that lag. I'm sure some other powerups are causing lag as well.

Slowdown:
One of the river items slows the game down for all players except one (if I got this correctly) I know it's a feature, but it really interrupts gameplay (consider removing?)
The game also tends to slow down and lag more later on (during 100+ round matches) are there any leaks?

Modes:
Would be nice to have a mode to remove river powerups. Would go a long way towards improving lag if you want to keep them in the game for players who are not lagging.

Misc suggestions:
Show revive countdown timer without needing to open the menu dropdown.
Enable -nt mode by default?
Headshots - way too imbalanced (one hit kills when you have 9000+ HP) would be better to have a multiplier (ie. 4x dmg from the second hook that hits you instead of instant kill)
 

BlackRose

Forum User
Zack1996

EPIC! The new item was really neat. It was really funny when I got a headshot with my three little Pudges.
That's how the item was planned. So you can get out of a current hook and get more headshots. Although I haven't thought as to what happens when all 12 players get this o_O

The early levels of Phantom's Lance is pretty lackluster, but it becomes extremely powerful later on. I really like how well it reflects Phantom Lancer (although PL has pretty decent early game )
Pudge Wars isn't necessarily meant to reflect DotA's gameplay, only hero themes (that's how I see it). I wasn't given the exact %chance for Phantom's Lance, so I just made it 5% per level. 30% is quite high, I am wandering about adding a cooldown for it.

Anyway, the AI makes it easy to test things with. Somehow, I seem to get damaged twice by a single attack for some reason. I'm not sure if it really happened, but it felt like it did.
Has happened before :( Sometimes they like deal a lot of damage. I'm going to check over the coding later.

The Dialogs are kinda cramped. You could reduce the length of the title of the dialog or something so it fits nicely into the box.
I kind of noticed that too, but hadn't really bothered to fix. I'll get to that.

TDN

I've tested this with my friends and they don't seem to find the map laggy to the point where it's unplayable, it does gear to being a little laggy when 12 players all have their Meat Hook launched, but neither they or I have reached an unplayable state.

Could you post your computer specs?

Denies:
Players should be able to disable allies from denying them by entering a code (having an ally denying you when you still have 6000+ HP is not fun)
Revive time should be cut in half if you are denied (better balance)
Yeah, this game does have a bit of team betrayal, you can Toss your allies over, throw Land Mines at them, and hook them from the enemy side! But I don't see any backfires in adding that command.

Lag:
Blade fury is really lagging things up, I get about 1 FPS and the game becomes unplayable. I can't even count how many times I've died from that lag. I'm sure some other powerups are causing lag as well.
I really can't imagine the game getting that laggy! Can I ask, does playing the last version lag as well?

Slowdown:
One of the river items slows the game down for all players except one (if I got this correctly) I know it's a feature, but it really interrupts gameplay (consider removing?)
Hyperspeed - It makes the Pudge that gets the powerup so fast, that all else seems slow in comparison, even allies.

I'll improve the main post later with more details, the river items are called powerups, I'll explain them also in the first post. (not soon, as I have my education to put before)

It's legacy from Tossrock's previous version. All I'm doing at the moment is finishing his intentions before any of my ideas (with the exception of a few minor things).

The game also tends to slow down and lag more later on (during 100+ round matches) are there any leaks?
I haven't tested round matches as no one seems to play it, Tossrock himself said it was merely legacy to the first Pudge Wars? (I can't recall exaftly).

I don't think there are any leaks, there might be some hashtable flushes I might have forgot to do, but do they really cause lag? How long (doesn't have to be exact) was the game? 1 hour? 2? Might have something to do with the coding.

Modes:
Would be nice to have a mode to remove river powerups. Would go a long way towards improving lag if you want to keep them in the game for players who are not lagging.
Finishing final intentions of true author before mine. But simple triggered movement of the powerups can't lag can it ~_~?

Headshots - way too imbalanced (one hit kills when you have 9000+ HP) would be better to have a multiplier (ie. 4x dmg from the second hook that hits you instead of instant kill)
That's what employs teamwork! You see an ally has a target hooked, you should hook him to kill him. This is what balances the map a bit IMO, if a team was just sheer dominating the other team and racking up the gold and hook points - the losing team would be able to still kill via Headshot, scoring kills, and skill points.

Also, it does make sense doesn't it? If you had two people holding a candy wrapper and pulling, wouldn't it rip apart?

Sure the stronger person (or faster hook) would win, but we are talking of equal powered hooks here, it would explode. It's also been part of the map, everyone's use to it :thup:

yami-joey

pretty cool

(P.S.: it's alright if u don't continue PW anymore X_X)
Thanks :)

(P.S.: I'm sorry D:)
 

Moridin

Snow Leopard
You know what would be awesome? Get a modeller to split the model of pudge into two halves, with guts and blood at the split point. Then whenever two people get a headshot, it rips the pudge apart (kills him), and replaces him with the two split models. Each half will goto one player :p. That would be epic :D.
 

CrazedPyscho

New Member
i know u include abilities from dota heroes in the form of items but could u give a complete list of them? :cool: n hve u implemented admiral's x marks the spot ability? that would make it fun when landing hooks! :thup: u could help allies dodge hooks or set up easier ones to catch your enemies! only ull hve 2 make it target allies as well
 

CrazedPyscho

New Member
It would be cool if u could also add other unique based movement abilities like puck's illusory orb ability! :cool: n how bout spectre's sprectral dagger ability! i mean if u hvnt already 4 all i know this mite already be there! :banghead:
 

TDN

New Member
Could you post your computer specs?
3Ghz P4
2GB DDR2 Ram
etc.


Yeah, this game does have a bit of team betrayal, you can Toss your allies over, throw Land Mines at them, and hook them from the enemy side! But I don't see any backfires in adding that command.
It's just seriously imbalanced. As suggested, at least cut the revive time in half if you are denied by an ally. It's a barrel of laughs the first time it happens, but it quickly becomes annoying after that.


I really can't imagine the game getting that laggy! Can I ask, does playing the last version lag as well?
No idea, since the Butchers sit around doing nothing, I can't really test whether it would lag. I would need to have a lan with at least 10 people to do a decent test, and that is not something I can do.


Hyperspeed/Powerups/legacy from Tossrock's previous version etc.
Would still be nice if you could add a mode to remove powerups, for those who want to play without them.


I don't think there are any leaks, there might be some hashtable flushes I might have forgot to do, but do they really cause lag? How long (doesn't have to be exact) was the game? 1 hour? 2? Might have something to do with the coding.
Sorry I meant after 100 kills, not 100 rounds. The forum wouldn't let me edit my post. After about 40 minutes of playing the game starts to slow down, as if there are leaks. Just pointing that out.


That's what employs teamwork! You see an ally has a target hooked, you should hook him to kill him. This is what balances the map a bit IMO, if a team was just sheer dominating the other team and racking up the gold and hook points - the losing team would be able to still kill via Headshot, scoring kills, and skill points.

Also, it does make sense doesn't it? If you had two people holding a candy wrapper and pulling, wouldn't it rip apart?

Sure the stronger person (or faster hook) would win, but we are talking of equal powered hooks here, it would explode. It's also been part of the map, everyone's use to it :thup:
Sorry, the bots don't really make use of teamwork, so it's a useless feature to me. Look at it this way: In DotA, Lion (Demon Witch)'s ultimate is meant to instantly turn a target unit inside out, destroying it utterly. Does it do that? Of course not, that would be imbalanced, so they changed it so that the ultimate "attempts" to turn the target inside out, merely doing high, but not imbalanced damage. What I'm trying to get around, is that you need to focus on balance more than realism in this case. I'm not by any means suggesting you remove the feature altogether, just balance the second hook to something like 4x damage instead. Any Butcher not near full health is going to explode anyway when hit with that kind of force.
 

BlackRose

Forum User
Moridin

You know what would be awesome? Get a modeller to split the model of pudge into two halves, with guts and blood at the split point. Then whenever two people get a headshot, it rips the pudge apart (kills him), and replaces him with the two split models. Each half will goto one player . That would be epic .
That's not a bad idea :p

CrazedPsycho

i know u include abilities from dota heroes in the form of items but could u give a complete list of them?
I'm sorry there is no official glossary for Pudge Wars :( - but hopefully that will change.

n hve u implemented admiral's x marks the spot ability? that would make it fun when landing hooks! u could help allies dodge hooks or set up easier ones to catch your enemies! only ull hve 2 make it target allies as well
Nope. Here is the list:

  • Phantom's Lance (newest) - Chance to Doppelwalk upon being hooked, level 5 allows you to split into images which is basically a 100% chance for headshots :|
  • Naix's Jaws - Lifesteal from hooks and lifesteal on attacks at level 5.
  • Lycan's Paws - Movespeed Bonus and AS/MS bonus at level 5.
  • Techie's Explosive Barrel - Land Mines and Suicide (level 5)
  • Tiny's Arm - Toss, only deals damage at Level 5 (exception of Land Mine)
  • Earthshaker's Totem - Can summon a segment of Fissure which deflects hooks, level 5 allows you to create a temporary complete Fissure.
  • Strygwyr's Claws - Rupture on enemies hooked, only last as long as they are on a hook. Level 5 makes the Rupture stay for a few seconds after the hook ends.
  • Barathrum's Laterns - Deals bonus damage proportional to your hook speed. Level 5 allows you a 17% chance to perform a Greater Bash.

TDN

Sorry, the bots don't really make use of teamwork, so it's a useless feature to me.
This game isn't designed for bots, AI can't be perfect. Have you tried with people?

It's just seriously imbalanced. As suggested, at least cut the revive time in half if you are denied by an ally. It's a barrel of laughs the first time it happens, but it quickly becomes annoying after that.
I will.

No idea, since the Butchers sit around doing nothing, I can't really test whether it would lag. I would need to have a lan with at least 10 people to do a decent test, and that is not something I can do.
I'm going to try optimize the code as much as possible and clean any leaks.

Would still be nice if you could add a mode to remove powerups, for those who want to play without them.
The mode input is going to get more messy for me. But ok, I'll make powerups optional, on by default. But anything major is a no until after v2.00.

After about 40 minutes of playing the game starts to slow down, as if there are leaks. Just pointing that out.
I'll look into that.

Sorry, the bots don't really make use of teamwork, so it's a useless feature to me.
The map was never intended for single player, it was intended for humans that could adapt to strategies. As a result of this design, I've kind of skimped on the AI, I hope to improve it, and actually code it well. Seriously, my AI is shit.

What I'm trying to get around, is that you need to focus on balance more than realism in this case.
I can see your point, when the game is nearing its end and all players have like 400 AoE, lightning-fast Meat Hook's, with about 6000 HP, it's not nice when you get hit by your stupid AI friend's large hook and then denied by another so easily.

Headshot is useful early but does stem to imbalanced late, I may add a rule to Headshot; it will only kill if a hero's HP is under a certain number, the 2nd hook will deal a percent based damage, and the 3rd will deal even more. That way, it's not an instant kill but still pretty damaging.

But I'm still adamant on keeping any major things for later, so Headshot stays for now.
 

TDN

New Member
This game isn't designed for bots, AI can't be perfect. Have you tried with people?
I'm in a situation where I'm unable to play with people, except perhaps the occasional 1vs1 or 1vs2. Internet connection is not stable enough for online play.

That said, the AI is already a huge improvement over bots that just sit doing nothing, and they are sometimes surprisingly accurate with their hooks.

Thanks for looking over the rest :)
 

Moridin

Snow Leopard
Hey. Played this with a friend and a couple (5) AI players. A couple of points I've noticed that I thought you might like to know:

Note: I was playing a 2 vs 5 match (me and my friend vs all 5 AI)

1) I bought the stygwyr item, the one that gives you drag damage. The name escapes me. Anyway, one thing I noticed was that at level 1 it had rupture turned on. Whenever I hooked an enemy and he walked away (after the end of the hook) he had blood spurting out of him and (I think) damage dealt to him. The effect was certainly there though.

2) The spinning blades powerup from the river causes immense amount of lag the first time it was caught. Even after that it caused a bit of lag, but thankfully not too much. Maybe pre-load it? Or reduce the blade count?

3) With 7 players on the field, I noticed that when we ALL hooked it caused quite a bit of lag (my friend had a good 10 seconds of hang time), while a couple of hooks, I think maybe 3 to 5 would cause sporadic lag.

Now: One thing you might want to take note of, is that my friend has a slightly lower end comp, so the lag might just be because of that. Right now, you can take my words about the lag with a bit of salt until I test it myself with AI.

Nice game anyway. Love the phantom lance, but I need to see more new things. Right now it's still the old pudge wars with crazy AI and a new item. Better definitely, but not much better.
 

BlackRose

Forum User
1) I bought the stygwyr item, the one that gives you drag damage. The name escapes me. Anyway, one thing I noticed was that at level 1 it had rupture turned on. Whenever I hooked an enemy and he walked away (after the end of the hook) he had blood spurting out of him and (I think) damage dealt to him. The effect was certainly there though.
The particular effect does linger a bit, although you can tell if a unit is damaged by floating text. Anyways, you were correct, the Rupture stayed on for 5 seconds, I've addressed that.

2) The spinning blades powerup from the river causes immense amount of lag the first time it was caught. Even after that it caused a bit of lag, but thankfully not too much. Maybe pre-load it? Or reduce the blade count?
I've thorougly gone through Blade Barrier and optimized as much as possible. Although I'm still concerned that it may lag, if it still does, I'll have to reduce the blade count like you suggested (because it didn't seem to previous version).

3) With 7 players on the field, I noticed that when we ALL hooked it caused quite a bit of lag (my friend had a good 10 seconds of hang time), while a couple of hooks, I think maybe 3 to 5 would cause sporadic lag.
:( I've only made the map performance worse .__. New code architecture sucks! But at least it's readable to me, Tossrock's was not very modular or redeable =) I'll see what I can do about lag.

Nice game anyway. Love the phantom lance, but I need to see more new things. Right now it's still the old pudge wars with crazy AI and a new item. Better definitely, but not much better.
Flame is new :) I forgot to enable it after disabling it initially because it crashed the game.

~~~~~~~~~~~

While I'm at that, I'm going to redesign the dialog selection. The coding is rushed ;)
 

BlackRose

Forum User
=) I'm terrible at map making. Updated with less lag hook. Less segment is made. No powerup is now an option.

Now I'm working on fixing Split.
 

TDN

New Member
Good show on fixing the lag. Original beta lagged in a 3vs3, and I just tested 4vs4 - no lag. However the menu option is really confusing right now. Would be nice if you could provide an option for manual input, something like this:

-rm (round mode)
-km (kill mode)
-np (no powerups)
-bm (boosted mode)

Thus:

-kmnpbm 100
(would set the round to 100 kills to win, and also activate -np and -bm)
 

BlackRose

Forum User
Would be nice if you could provide an option for manual input, something like this:
How is it confusing? The first option is so if the host accidentally presses something once the game loads, nothing bad happens. Also that first option was a choice for manual / interface selection too :p But I decided to leave manual input out.

The next option is just Kills / Rounds, usually the bottom box is Next.

Game lenght is afterwards, either pick short / medium / long (they all yield the same result for now), custom (you type in the number, followed by W, or Q for backspace), then you just toggle the game modifiers. =)

You'll just have to get use to it =)
 

TDN

New Member
Nevermind, I thought it was impossible to select more than 9 kills in a round, but I see you can click the button multiple times. 9 kill maximum would have sucked.
 

BlackRose

Forum User
Update here! B05 is out.

EDIT:

Sorry, I leftover an item while I was testing something, for those 2 users who downloaded, redownload it :3
 
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