Does socialism work?

[Jackal]

(Im taking this thread as a learning experience, since i dont know)

Ok. It would be "fair" but it wouldnt be "right" why should Person A give up part of his money and just throw it away to Person C without Person C equally contributing. In other words, why should Person C get money for doing nothing

Call it equal opportunity, or close to equal opportunity. If Person C can afford a decent life in a decent house with a decent nearby school, Person C can send his children to the decent school and possibly university if they're intelligent enough so that the children can develop into Person Bs. Who knows how many intellectuals, inventors and such the world has missed out on because they weren't born into the right social class.

I think the main thing about socialism is that some people are more focused on their own progression and success while others are more focused on the community's progression and success.

 

[ElderKingpin]

Ah but look. there is one more person.

Person D. The lazy person that has taken advantage of socialism. And that. is the majority of a Socialistic nation

 

[Darthfett]

Call it equal opportunity, or close to equal opportunity. If Person C can afford a decent life in a decent house with a decent nearby school, Person C can send his children to the decent school and possibly university if they're intelligent enough so that the children can develop into Person Bs.

Person C can afford going to a college/university if he works hard enough. It's his parents fault that he's not living a little bit higher of a standard of living, not Person A's fault.

 

[Jackal]

Ah but look. there is one more person.

Person D. The lazy person that has taken advantage of socialism. And that. is the majority of a Socialistic nation

Urh, what do you mean by that, if anything?

Person C can afford going to a college/university if he works hard enough. It's his parents fault that he's not living a little bit higher of a standard of living, not Person A's fault.

Rite cause if you work hard enough as a factory worker you can really buy a big house right?

 

[WastedSavior]

Let's take a look at 2 real people. (Names changed for the sake of anonymity)

Subject A
Bob Brown
Bob comes from a poor family, his parents are too poor and too busy working to give him the attention he deserves and needs to prosper in life.

Bob works all throughout high school to help his family buy groceries, he sacrifices a great deal of study time. His father suffers an injury working his construction job and cannot continue to work, so Bob drops out to work 3 jobs to support his family.

Bob studies on what little free time he has, and gets his GED. Bob works hard, and saves up enough money to go to a Community College. He continues working his 3 jobs while he attends classes full time.

Bob graduates and gets an entry level job at a company, he works long hours and gets paid just enough to get by.

Subject B
Wendy White
Wendy comes from a wealthy family, She wants for nothing, her parents bought her a car, a boat, and a house.

Wendy hasn't worked a day in her life, her parents have provided her with everything she could need, she has grown lazy, never having had to work for something, her parents hire her top tutors, and she graduates.

After high school Wendy takes a year off, her parents reward her graduation with a trip to Europe. When she returns her parents buy her way into a Prestigious school. She attends college, her bills, her gas, her food are all payed for by her parents.

Wendy graduates and is ushered into her fathers company as vice president. Her job is easy, and her hours are short.

Aftermath:
Bob works for Wendy
Bob works long hours and lives in a shanty apartment
He sends what little money he can spare back to his family

Wendy works very little
Bobs hard work makes Wendy look good.
Wendy lives a life of luxury.

Bob earns 25,462 a year (After Taxes)
Wendy earns 242,417 a year (After Taxes)

Wendy will retire young, she will earn 10 times more then bob in her lifetime.
Bob will probably work until the day he dies.

Wendy put in very little effort, she is the product of opportunity.
Bob has put in a great deal of effort, but he is at a disadvantage.

Is this fair?

In socialism, Each of the two would earn 133,939

Bob would work just as long, and just as hard, but he would be more substantially rewarded for his work. He will not suffer in poverty because of his social status.

Wendy would still live comfortably, but her innate advantages over bob will no longer matter, they would both be as equals.

The argument has been pleaded that a lazy person would break socialism, but is not the story of Bob and Wendy evidence that a lazy person corrupts all forms of government? How then is a standard of practice for all of the popular forms of government evidence that socialism is a broken system that cannot work?

 

[Varine]

Socialism works, yet you have your facts all wrong. Our health care plan isn't socialism.

Yes it is.

 

[ElderKingpin]

Urh, what do you mean by that, if anything?



Rite cause if you work hard enough as a factory worker you can really buy a big house right?

1. Its quiet simple. The majority of the people in a socialistic nation, are lazy asses.

2. And yes, you can, if you have a genuine heart to do the best you can. Its called the American dream.

"At Wasted savior, for having a long post, i cannot just quote it >.<"
No. A lazy person is not the downfall of a nation, because payment is based, on the individual, not the group. If you fail, in America. you get fired.

And. For Wendy, that is her parent's fault. I have seen some rich spoiled kids in my school. And im sick and tired of them. But then again. I have seen a rich family but the child is modest and caring, and the parents understand that spoiling their kid is wrong, that is exactly how Nazi Germany worked, as a child, you soak up everything without having the sense to check it over. That is the same here. If you are spoiled when you are young, you obviously are going to think you can just get by in life.

And in a socialistic nation. Lets put Joe in that situation

Joe. is about 13-16, in his teen years. His parents have worked hard and diligently at a .. company for 20+ years. Yet, they never get promoted, never get a pay raise, they get paid the same amount as the next person. And what does Joe think at this age? "Whats the point of working hard? I get paid whether I do hard or not"

 

[WastedSavior]

Joe. is about 13-16, in his teen years. His parents have worked hard and diligently at a .. company for 20+ years. Yet, they never get promoted, never get a pay raise, they get paid the same amount as the next person. And what does Joe think at this age? "Whats the point of working hard? I get paid whether I do hard or not"

Joe is not burdened by greed and is free to chose a career that he is passionate about, instead of going after a career that pays well.

Imagine a country full of doctors, lawyers, politicians who actually care about what they do, and not just what they earn.

I'm not advocating socialism, I'm just trying to point out that socialism is no worse then capitalism, or any other form of government. They all have their advantages and faults.

2% of America's population has 50% of America's wealth.
2008 estimate of America's Population: 303,824,640
2009 estimate of America's Wealth: $8.3 trillion
That would mean that 6 million people have 4.15 trillion dollars

Those numbers just don't add up to me...

 

[ElderKingpin]

Where did you get those numbers :/

 

[WastedSavior]

Where did you get those numbers :/

US Population:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&tdim=true&q=american+population

How much money do we really have?
http://money.howstuffworks.com/how-much-money-is-in-the-world.htm

Who does that money belong to :
Either of these sites will give you the same story.
http://update.unu.edu/archive/issue44_22.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1222-04.htm

 

[Ninva]

The Soviet Union was not truly Communist. China is not truly Communist. Cuba is the same. I've never heard of an instance of Christian Communism, but it had to fail because somebody had to have gotten greedy.

It's in the Bible.

 

[ElderKingpin]

there is no christian communism ._. it was basically a theocracy

 

[ReVolver]

 

[ElderKingpin]

in other words, you only like it if yur the one thats in it

 

[BANANAMAN]

more like the one calling the shots.

 

[Samael88]

It does not matter what -ism we are using, it all just ends up as a form of "dictatorship" anyway.

Take Sweden for example, we got the so called "democracy":
We basically choose who is to make our decisions for us.
I would call it "democrazy".

The thing is that we got a party there that is called socialdemicrates or however it is called. They are not the best party for everyone, but for the workers it is. Currently we are governed by the "moderates", they are basically capitalists, it took them about a year to pull us down the drain

The conclusion I draw from this rambling is:
I don't like socialism.
I don't like capitalism.
But if I had to choose between scylla and carybdis I would choose socialism.

 

[Zakyath]

Samael88: That's bullshit and you know it, there was a financial crisis the world over and you don't even notice it in Sweden! You can't say you do. They are managing everything great. And before, they reduced unemployment with ~75%.

And well, they aren't very right either. They are still very left.

The swedish left is here -> Swedish right here -------------->American left here.. yeah, you get it =)

Anyways. Socialism works great in theory. And if you mix it with other ideologies. I for myself believe that everyone should get free education/health and after that they are more or less on their own. You should be able to live in a country without difficulties if you're somewhat trying. In the US you can have jobs where you can't even live on the salary. Where I live you can be "punished" for succeeding in life and have to pay over 50% of your salary in taxes.

ElderKingpin:

You said the majority of the socialist people are lazy. I do agree so much! Finally someone who thinks as I do. I guess you share all my other beliefs: black people are criminal, germans are nazis, jews are a substitute for just about everything bad in the world, etc.

I really don't understand this "bashing socialism" of yours. You obviously don't know much about it. Except that it's bad (even though you don't know why)

 

[ElderKingpin]

I know why its bad, i just want to learn, i have a desire to learn. Its bad, because it depends on the basis that even when you do not have to work, you will, someone people think that when everyone is on equal ground, everyone is happy, and the standard of living is higher. And I no, dont believe all blacks are criminals, and that other stuff. I am prone to, but i resist such temptations, except of course, if the dress a certain way, then i take that stereotypical standpoint. Anyway.

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With the same chat i had with the guy in my first post. He also stated that. as a college student with cancer. He could not pay his premium of 1000$ a year. I dont go to college, so i dont know about the cost (he no longer has cancer btw) he also said that his father had to do something involving his job (i want to say work over-time, or quit, i dont remember, it could have even been his father selling the family house) and he complained that if America had a socialistic healthcare, he wouldnt be in such a mess. I stated that if he plans to have a socialistic healthcare, he should also expect the government to continue to grow bigger, and our freedoms to diminish. He didnt believe me. Things like that stump me, and i dont feel like looking like an idiot and not knowing what to do.

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The ONLY way for one to truly know what government is best. Is to have someone have a child. And have that child to be completely separate from the modern world. Have no kind of government. They are completely unbiased. and do not prefer one thing over another.

 

[uberfoop]

I know why its bad, i just want to learn, i have a desire to learn. Its bad, because it depends on the basis that even when you do not have to work, you will, someone people think that when everyone is on equal ground, everyone is happy, and the standard of living is higher.

Actually, no. Socialism does not aim at increasing PC-GDP. In fact, many socialists would tend to think nothing of it if it dropped a little. The point being made is that the money is used more appropriately for the welfare of the people as a whole.

By the way, socialist programs are not inherintly easy on people who actually choose not to work. That's a false statement you learned from someone who had no idea what they were talking about. Things like 'enforced partial pay during maternity leave,' which are common, are nothing like 'giving someone who chooses not to work as much money as someone who does work,' which is not particularily common as a general system (think quitting versus being laid off here).

I stated that if he plans to have a socialistic healthcare, he should also expect the government to continue to grow bigger, and our freedoms to diminish. He didnt believe me. Things like that stump me, and i dont feel like looking like an idiot and not knowing what to do.

He probably also didn't care. In any case, the kind of government expansion you're talking about pretty much just implies higher taxes, which, while it is technically a reduction of freedoms, isn't exactly on the same page as freedom of speech or worship, and thus I feel that your statement delivers the wrong sort of connotation. A little less freedom to put your money where you choose is a big deal, but in situations like this it's arguably beneficial.
Additionally, you seem to not understand that not everyone sees more freedoms as always being better. In fact, nobody but a true anarchist would. And, apparantly, you.

The ONLY way for one to truly know what government is best. Is to have someone have a child. And have that child to be completely separate from the modern world. Have no kind of government. They are completely unbiased. and do not prefer one thing over another.

'No government' is as much something you can be indoctrinated into as zero is a number. All you did there was arbitrarily decide on a 'null' value for government, plug it in, and pretend that you just eliminated a problem.

By that same logic, you could conclude that someone who has had no involvement or education in economics would be the best person to write up a national taxation policy. Which is ridiculous.

 

[ElderKingpin]

Maybe i didnt state what freedom exactly means

1. Uhm, i didnt get the second paragraph :/ (wait, now i do). It just seems thats how socialism does its work. I might have remembered wrong, but everyone is treated equally. Like. You get paid the same as person A even if you work hard and person A does not

Theres a difference between "controlled freedom (wow, what a contradictory)" and "ANARCHY" i dont mean as in.. people do whatever they want. I mean. the government directly, controlling what you do, where you put your money, what college you go to. ETC. Complete freedom cannot be achieved because that leaves to.. anarchy. Rules that people follow in living together: law. And with bigger government, the more people depends on the government, the more people will allow government to grow. And eventually, the government will have another power to control what you want. with rules. unfair rules that you have to follow.

3. Yes, my example fails, but my idea is correct. An unbiased person would best decide :/