WIP Dungeon Crawler

[Builder Bob]

Item control system sux.

How about you not randomize items but make it quazi-random.

As much as that is a viable option, I've considered it already but chosen not to go in that direction.

When you decide to make this a 2 player map send me a PM.
I can help with multiplayer/GetLocalPlayer() coding.

If it is playable as 2 player, it will be 2 player, no question. I'll be sure to send you a pm.

EDIT: Sorry, actually says "Must have an opponent to start"

Are you trying to play it in multiplayer? It should work in single player.


Everyone who has to use 'iseedeadpeople' to play can also just enable sound to play. This problem is known and is not going to be an issue in the next version.

 

[Kenny]

Your idea for handling items sounds pretty sweet to me. I get the general idea of it, but it would be cool to test it out.

Using the item abilties instead of the hero abilities seems like a pretty good idea. Hand placement over the keyboard makes it pretty simple to be able navigate spells in the multiboard thing and cast a spell or two at the same time.

Keep up the awesome work!

 

[Cohadar]

As much as that is a viable option, I've considered it already but chosen not to go in that direction.

I would like to know the reasons?

Also using numpad would save you from having to have 6 different versions of same ability.

Item randomization does not really add any depth to the game imho.
Small randomization is ok and for that you really don't need it to be full random.

Have you considered making monsters that are resistant to some attacks?
50% resistance to frost - blue monsters
50% resistance to fire - red monsters
50% resistance to poison - green monsters

You get the point...

 

[jaybles169]

Fun stuff. I might recommend being able to hold the mouse button down to keep running, if that's possible. Made it to level 5

 

[Builder Bob]

I would like to know the reasons?

I can give you some of my reasons, so you can see if you can relate or not.

Most of my reasons are psychological ones, while some are directly related to gameplay.
One is the gambling effect. Predictability is boring.
Let's take an example. You start with level 1 fireball. The drop rate for level 2 fireball is 5% per monster you kill. On average it'll take you 20 kills to get the drop. It's actually just 64% probable you'll get it after 20 kills, so there's still a good chance you don't get the item when you expect it.
This system is likely give a lot of frustration. When you finally find the item you won't get that excited, because after all, you were expecting it. At most, you'll be relieved you got it at last. This goes on through all the levels. If you get a drop quicker than you expected that's great, but it's not a reason to celebrate. You would have gotten it eventually anyway.

Now, I know this predictability doesn't kick in before you've become familiar with the game, so the above example does not affect new players in the same way.

When it comes to gameplay, many of the modifiers doesn't really add anything new to the game. Damage is damage, no matter whether it comes from base damage, crit, crit damage, etc. The different damage attributes gives the spells different damage patterns, but that's all at the moment. Range and speed change the spells slightly, but they are no requirements.

With the system though, I can (and plan to) add all sorts of nifty stuff to any item. Let's say I introduce a rare random modifier which adds splash damage to Frostbolt. It's going to change how you use the spell, and you might want to keep this item even if you find something which deals more damage later. While it's not a requiremen to play through the game, it can be a nice surprise to find, and it'll help you on your journey.
What about a modifier which does special effects on critical hits? Stun-, immobilize-, silence- and knock back on crit are all in the game, but not implemented.

I could have elaborated a lot further, but I tried to keep it fairly concise so you at least know where I'm coming from. I've never gambled by the way.

Also using numpad would save you from having to have 6 different versions of same ability.

Yeah, I haven't gotten around testing it yet. It might affect how I handle casting times, so we'll see if it is viable or not.

Item randomization does not really add any depth to the game imho.
Small randomization is ok and for that you really don't need it to be full random.

It's mostly psychological. Whether it adds depth or not can be discussed.

Have you considered making monsters that are resistant to some attacks?
50% resistance to frost - blue monsters
50% resistance to fire - red monsters
50% resistance to poison - green monsters

You get the point...

I've considered it, but I'm not sure how I will make this affect anyone other than the Wizard. The other characters have only physical attacks. Resistances aren't a bad idea if they can affect all characters equally.

Fun stuff. I might recommend being able to hold the mouse button down to keep running, if that's possible. Made it to level 5

Not bad! There's about 8 levels or something in the demo.

It isn't possible to track when a player holds down the mouse button in Warcraft 3. Sadly.

 

[Cohadar]

With the system though, I can (and plan to) add all sorts of nifty stuff to any item. Let's say I introduce a rare random modifier which adds splash damage to Frostbolt. It's going to change how you use the spell, and you might want to keep this item even if you find something which deals more damage later. While it's not a requiremen to play through the game, it can be a nice surprise to find, and it'll help you on your journey.
What about a modifier which does special effects on critical hits? Stun-, immobilize-, silence- and knock back on crit are all in the game, but not implemented.

You can do all that with 20 level ability.
Just code it in the spell that crit is given when you get level 17 exactly
or spalsh is given on level 18 exactly ...
It all depends on how complicated you code your spells.

I've considered it, but I'm not sure how I will make this affect anyone other than the Wizard. The other characters have only physical attacks. Resistances aren't a bad idea if they can affect all characters equally.

Well you can have enhached physical weapons, things like blazing sword or spear of frost and so on.

Besides for a 2 people game it might be even good to make some monsters like 80% resistant to physical attacks and some 80% resistant to magic and than you simple have to have a good teamplay with mage+fighter.
I really don't think you need any more classes.

Mage + Barbarian is a great combination for any type of enemy
2 mages on the other hand would get pwned very fast.
2 barbarians would get owned by magic monsters.

You can even force players to take different characters in multiplayer.

 

[Viikuna]

Hm, holding mouse would be cool.. And since filling the whole map with trackales sounds really uneffective, you should maybe use some Custom Mouse API. link

MouseAPI allows getting and setting mouse coordinates. These aren't relative to the game, but just the screen coordinates.

If hero is always in the center of the screen, it might work.

It would of course require RtC to play this, but why dont you try it and see how it plays out?

 

[Builder Bob]

You can do all that with 20 level ability.
Just code it in the spell that crit is given when you get level 17 exactly
or spalsh is given on level 18 exactly ...
It all depends on how complicated you code your spells.

I can, but it's not gonna happen. Any combination of mods shall be findable, and not just a small selection pre-set by me. When playing the game for the second time you shall not know that at the 18th level of the spell you will be given splash.

This map is not going to walk you through the game and give you what you need exactly when you need it just to give you a sense of doing well in the game. You are placed in a dungeon which is randomized every time. I want to encourage exploration, experimentation and adaptation. You will be handed out items with random attributes, as well as being met with random encounters along your way. How you decide to fight, and when you decide to run, should be factors that play into your survival.

There's still a long way to go to accomplish what I'm trying to do. I appreciate you trying to say that something could be done in a different way, but I'm not going in that direction. Not for this map.

Well you can have enhached physical weapons, things like blazing sword or spear of frost and so on.

This would be very cool to have. I will need to introduce normal items first to be able to do it. Depending on how intuitive I can make it, I may make it possible.

Besides for a 2 people game it might be even good to make some monsters like 80% resistant to physical attacks and some 80% resistant to magic and than you simple have to have a good teamplay with mage+fighter.
I really don't think you need any more classes.

Mage + Barbarian is a great combination for any type of enemy
2 mages on the other hand would get pwned very fast.
2 barbarians would get owned by magic monsters.

You can even force players to take different characters in multiplayer.

Maybe I will make some differences like this between single player and multi player mode.


@Viikuna

That's actually very interesting. With trackables removed, multiplayer deathmatches suddenly becomes an option. Too bad it requires RtC though...

 

[Viikuna]

That's actually very interesting. With trackables removed, multiplayer deathmatches suddenly becomes an option. Too bad it requires RtC though...

Ye..., But you should try it. It might be worth of it.

 

[SerraAvenger]

I would highly appreciate more defence. If you do this via a leveling system with stats to be increased like in Diablo, or with potions / healing locations / wells, or with armor class items, I do not really care.

Also, I think the bugs are quite imbalanced : /
Perhaps decrease their damage?

Huntress seems underpowered so far : (

And missiles really should have shared vision.

Apart from that, it is an awesome game!
It has the playability of D2 combined with the awesomeness of D1, I really like the experience.

 

[jaybles169]

Also, I think the bugs are quite imbalanced : /
Perhaps decrease their damage?

I too noticed how much hp those little guys have. Seems weird to have something so small and crushable via foot should have so much hp.

I also noticed toward the later levels it's hard to stop and take a breath, look at spells you just picked up, compare them, and so on, before being molested by more spawns. I don't know how you would balance that out but just something to think about.

Also maybe you should have a small constant HP regen; nothing amazing or anything, can be just real slow. But it really sucks when you go on a cold streak of like 15 kills with no hp stones and you're teetering on death for so long. I guess that could just be part of the game too; places part of the game out of you're hands, so it's not all skill based. Interesting. But now I'm just rambling.

Still like the game though, keep it up.

 

[Builder Bob]

Ye..., But you should try it. It might be worth of it.

I've just got too many things I want to learn and get into the map right now, so if I am using stuff from RtC it'll have to be at a later time. I am not ruling it out cause I too think it could lighten the cpu requirements a lot.

I would highly appreciate more defence. If you do this via a leveling system with stats to be increased like in Diablo, or with potions / healing locations / wells, or with armor class items, I do not really care.

Also, I think the bugs are quite imbalanced : /
Perhaps decrease their damage?

Huntress seems underpowered so far : (

And missiles really should have shared vision.

Apart from that, it is an awesome game!
It has the playability of D2 combined with the awesomeness of D1, I really like the experience.

I'm really happy to hear you saw some of D1 in this. I played through D1 while designing this map in hopes I would be able to capture some of the D1 feeling. D1 had so great atmosphere!

I too noticed how much hp those little guys have. Seems weird to have something so small and crushable via foot should have so much hp.

I also noticed toward the later levels it's hard to stop and take a breath, look at spells you just picked up, compare them, and so on, before being molested by more spawns. I don't know how you would balance that out but just something to think about.

Also maybe you should have a small constant HP regen; nothing amazing or anything, can be just real slow. But it really sucks when you go on a cold streak of like 15 kills with no hp stones and you're teetering on death for so long. I guess that could just be part of the game too; places part of the game out of you're hands, so it's not all skill based. Interesting. But now I'm just rambling.

Still like the game though, keep it up.

I feel you and SerraAvenger talk much about the same thing, and you both have many good points.

It's hard to stop and take a breath because of the terrible monster spawning system which was just thrown together in a hurry. I've attempted to give you a feeling of being very powerful, but being placed in a dungeon where death awaits at every corner. The (also) terrible AI seems to have a tendency of clumping up in certain rooms depending on how the dungeon is built. That's why you sometimes get endless fights that were not really intended, giving you no breathing room. Whenever a monster is killed, a new one spawns, and for some reason find it's way to this seemingly very attractive room to fight you again.

Anything that seem out of place should not be in the game by design, so I see I must tone down the scarabs.

Healing locations / wells should be tested to see what affect they have on gameplay. I'm for them, but maybe they should have a limited supply so you don't camp around them trying to grind monsters for loot.

By the way, all of this really touches the importance of monster behavior, and how I should change it. I've been toying with ideas of having monsters being attracted to various sources like you, your spells, attacks (magic essence, sounds, smells), and whatever I can come up with. If you stand around casting a lot of spells at the same location for a duration, monsters could be attracted to you and overrun you if you can't get to a less "exposed" location in time.

 

[Bloodcount]

About the wells.... Make it the dieablo way: You can use a well up to X times. Then it is empty and will start refilling slowly. Also I recommend that the wells shloud be destroyable. When you drikn from it, the monsters shloud consider it as a threat and start attacking you. And, please make the wells reasonable. I mean, when you drink water, you refill your energy, you don't stop bleeding, so I suggest for the wells to be your number one energy restorer and to have some special altars where, you can cast a ritual(that needs time lets say 5 seconds) to the gods and they are going to lend you strenght. Sadly by using the altar, you also destroy it. And here is another suggestion: Each time you enter a new floor you get a Hero starter kit (can only wear one at a time) Baisicly, you get moovement speed rush, armor bonus, hp and mp regen. Yes, all that, however for a very limited time.

 

[SerraAvenger]

About the wells.... Make it the dieablo way: You can use a well up to X times. Then it is empty and will start refilling slowly. Also I recommend that the wells shloud be destroyable. When you drikn from it, the monsters shloud consider it as a threat and start attacking you. And, please make the wells reasonable. I mean, when you drink water, you refill your energy, you don't stop bleeding, so I suggest for the wells to be your number one energy restorer and to have some special altars where, you can cast a ritual(that needs time lets say 5 seconds) to the gods and they are going to lend you strenght. Sadly by using the altar, you also destroy it. And here is another suggestion: Each time you enter a new floor you get a Hero starter kit (can only wear one at a time) Baisicly, you get moovement speed rush, armor bonus, hp and mp regen. Yes, all that, however for a very limited time.

I don't agree. When you use the altar, you are instantly dead, as 5 seconds = dead in level 3(+?).

Hero starter kits seem quite useless. Such a small bonus will be good for fighting bosses, but while crawling they won't help at all. And not using them is a waste, too.

And with wells healing mp: I think that there actually is too much mana healing while there is too little hp refill. Finding hp healers more often would damage the incredibly atmosphere of the game. I'm for less dropped runes but 1-2 static healers per level. They could be defended by ncs, too.

I think wells that actually do restore hp (perhaps simply the nightelv way?) would be really amazing.

If you could add quests to this, It should be really amazing. Currently, it is just a slashing game but it really has a tense atmosphere. If I find the time, I'll post a detailed review for this on my blog.


EDIT: You might do wells 'safe zones' that creeps will not enter, just like the cities in D2. Best would be if you couldn't attack from within up to a certain range and that creeps that are coming to such places will flee to their spawning position (which would of course be far away, so it is impossible to have multiple creeps at the border of the safe zone standing there and blocking the way out).
Or you might do it with ncs (nc killed creeps don't give loot)

 

[Builder Bob]

If you could add quests to this, It should be really amazing. Currently, it is just a slashing game but it really has a tense atmosphere.

It really is just a slashing game right now, and it probably will stay mostly a slashing game as my greatest strength does not lie in telling stories. I do have something in the works on the story telling side as well though. How well it turns out remains to be seen.

If I find the time, I'll post a detailed review for this on my blog.

I'd be honored


While I don't want to introduce any safe zones besides pressing the pause button, wells and altars gives me some ideas I want to try out. I'm thinking of expanding the interface I suggested some posts ago, and give you more options to interact with the environment. Adding ability buttons like kneeling/praying/sacrifice when standing on an altar could give you something to try depending on what situation you're in. Maybe the gods are pleased with you and give you a helping hand. They could also be angry at you...

 

[SerraAvenger]

Barricades? Barrels?

Different Gods that react differently on different types of prayer and will be angry if you pray for another?

Sjal'tar
God of Death 
Likes: Sacrifice++;
Dislikes: Praying-; Kneeling-; Doing things for Seral-
Does: Increases the Potential Power of magical Attributes; Increases your magical damage

Seral
God of Light
Likes: Praying++; Kneeling+
Dislikes: Sacrifice--; 
Does: Increases the chance to find Healing Runes/Armor

Acehart
God of Power
Likes: Kneeling++; Killing Creeps with Physical Damage+
Dislikes: Praying--; Doing things for Sjal'tar-
Does: Increases your physical damage

 

[Builder Bob]

Barricades? Barrels?

If I can find a meaningful use for them. I've also thought about placing movable blocks which could be used for puzzles. Sort of like in Zelda. I'm probably not going to do it, but it could be fun.

Different Gods that react differently on different types of prayer and will be angry if you pray for another?

Sjal'tar
God of Death 
Likes: Sacrifice++;
Dislikes: Praying-; Kneeling-; Doing things for Seral-
Does: Increases the Potential Power of magical Attributes; Increases your magical damage

Seral
God of Light
Likes: Praying++; Kneeling+
Dislikes: Sacrifice--; 
Does: Increases the chance to find Healing Runes/Armor

Acehart
God of Power
Likes: Kneeling++; Killing Creeps with Physical Damage+
Dislikes: Praying--; Doing things for Sjal'tar-
Does: Increases your physical damage

I like it

There are so many things I want to do with this map right now. I'm still struggling with creating a flexible enough dungeon builder as well as graphics to go with it.

 

[Bloodcount]

I don't like the god idea. why?
First of all, some poeple here are religious. Second.... the idea is good, just implemented horibly. Gods..... are overused, and now when you hear a god you start thinking of a chilsee. My opinion is that this way, Serra, it is just an uneeded add-on. What I'd do is simply put altars here and there. You can buy/or get for free a random blessing(the style of the game) and for some time, you get the bonuses. Actually i like the bonuses... perhaps there shloud also by a blessing that gives you.... sight range?

 

[Builder Bob]

I don't like the god idea. why?
First of all, some poeple here are religious. Second.... the idea is good, just implemented horibly. Gods..... are overused, and now when you hear a god you start thinking of a chilsee. My opinion is that this way, Serra, it is just an uneeded add-on. What I'd do is simply put altars here and there. You can buy/or get for free a random blessing(the style of the game) and for some time, you get the bonuses. Actually i like the bonuses... perhaps there shloud also by a blessing that gives you.... sight range?

For all you know I may be religious. Having one or multiple gods in a game does not automatically mock the belief for or against any god. As god made his world, I make mine.

Anyway, to your second comment. I'm not implementing anything exactly as an idea that is presented to me, so don't worry so much about the details, and rather about how the added element will change the atmosphere of the game.
The details are just numbers following different patterns, and are subject to a lot of testing and balancing.

I'd like to see the gods in this map as a very uncertain element. When trying to please the gods, you will rarely get an answer right away. Instead you must guess if what happens is caused by the gods or not. You could even choose to believe they don't exist

 

[MagnaGuard]

Can someone tell me how the spell that the wizard and rogue do like multiple slices? I mean what model is used for the spell