[Need Ideas!] Unique Hero Defense

[wraithseeker]

Could you guys think of some unique ideas for a Hero Defense?

Some Questions

What makes a Hero defense unique?

Do you all enjoy playing polished Hero Defenses?

Do you like Lore to go along with the story?
(For example, "hold the line while Kel'thuzard summons the big bad archimonde")

Do you all like the mindset of Intelligence being the damage dealer yet very fragile, strength the tank and the brute, while agility focus more on ninjaing and damaging units?

What do you think I can make creeps unique in their own way?

What bosses would be unique and fun to fight with?

Do you all like defending one spot for life or have to move along everywhere always?

Do you think hero defense map fails?

What exactly do you feel that most Hero defenses need to be improved on?

Do you all like wonderful yet playable terrain?

Do you all like having the idea of neutral races which you have to save or they might fall to the "bad guys" and join their side or your side.

Do you like a underwater and island theme map?

That's all that I can think of right now, now keep your ideas rolling guys:thup:

Giving rep to well generated ideas.

 

[sjakie]

What makes a Hero defense unique? - Nothing does, actually. Judging from the fact your map falls under the category "Hero Defence", it is per definition not an unique map. Still, creative heroes, terrain, and opponents can make a hero defence stand out between the other ones.

Do you all enjoy playing polished Hero Defenses? - Define "Polished"? Yeah, I like playing hero defences, but what exactly do you mean with polished?

Do you like Lore to go along with the story? - I'm cool with it, but its not like a necessity. In fact, I personally enjoy well-though-off custom stories better than stories that fit into the lore.

Do you all like the mindset of Intelligence being the damage dealer yet very fragile, strength the tank and the brute, while agility focus more on ninjaing and damaging units? - You could make a few exeptions, ofcourse, but yeah, thats what it should basicly come down to. At least, I'd prefer it to come down on that.

What do you think I can make creeps unique in their own way? - Giving them special, custom abilities would help a great deal on getting yourself fun, unique creeps. You should make a suggestion topic for that.

What bosses would be unique and fun to fight with? - Same as with the creeps, theres not a single thing that makes your bosses unique and fun. A suggestion topic is the best solution for this.

Do you all like defending one spot for life or have to move along everywhere always? - I personally prefer defending a single spot, for several reasons I'm not going to name right now ^-^.

Do you think hero defense map fails? - Not at all

What exactly do you feel that most Hero defenses need to be improved on? - A lot of hero defences look rather messy and childish. A lot of gramatical errors in the tooltips, incredibly unoriginal items, lame heroes, things like that. Also, they tend to turn a bit monotone at the end of the game. Hero defences could be improved by throwing in some more action to keep my interest untill the game has been finished, and by carefully working out things to make them proper rather than rush them and make them look lame.

Do you all like wonderful yet playable terrain? - Ofcourse I do. Wonderful, but simple though. I prefer having a clear view while defending a spot. I really dislike having trees and rocks planted all over the place.

Do you all like having the idea of neutral races which you have to save or they might fall to the "bad guys" and join their side or your side? - You could do that, but the idea doesn't really turn me on.

Do you like a underwater and island theme map? - There are quite many of these, yet I dont have a problem with them at all. They are usually pretty fun to play.

 

[deathblade]

Some Question
What makes a Hero defense unique? HEROS AND TERRAIN

Do you all enjoy playing polished Hero Defenses? DEFINE POLISHED (BY PLAIN THEN YES)

Do you like Lore to go along with the story?
(For example, "hold the line while Kel'thuzard summons the big bad archimonde") NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Do you all like the mindset of Intelligence being the damage dealer yet very fragile, strength the tank and the brute, while agility focus more on ninjaing and damaging units? SORTA THAT WAY... :S DEPENDS BUT YES

What do you think I can make creeps unique in their own way? MAKE EM HAVE A CHANCE TO DROP A RANDOM CUSTOM ITEM FROM THE GAME

What bosses would be unique and fun to fight with? SECRET ONE

Do you all like defending one spot for life or have to move along everywhere always? MOVING ELSE GAME WOULD BE BORING AND TIGHT

Do you think hero defense map fails? NOPE NOT AT ALL

What exactly do you feel that most Hero defenses need to be improved on? MOVESETS AND NEW IDEAS

Do you all like wonderful yet playable terrain? MAKE IT SIMPLE

Do you all like having the idea of neutral races which you have to save or they might fall to the "bad guys" and join their side or your side. NO

Do you like a underwater and island theme map? YES

replays in caps

 

[XeNiM666]

1. Unique heroes, skills, items and systems. Also terrains.
2. If by polished you mean non-laggy, non-buggy then YES.
3. Yes.
4. Yes. But I think Intelligent heroes are useless late game so I suggest stat-based skills.
5. Have some unique skills that can make them strong or make you weak.
6. The bosses have to have exciting skills not just watching them kill each other until the other one dies. There's a tutorial in the Hive that makes exciting boss battles.
7. Yes. But make the battle ground a bit large.
8. No. Never and Never will be!!
9. Super Unique skills, items and heroes. By Unique I mean not copied from other games. The spells are non-laggy. The game is non-buggy.
10. Yes. But simple terrain is good enough. Just remember that too much terrain is bad for the eyes.
11. Yes. So it can make the game more exciting and have more replayability.
12. Don't really care. Its's your Hero Defense Map. Make it in the way that you want.

 

[vaziocs]

Could you guys think of some unique ideas for a Hero Defense?

Some Questions



That's all that I can think of right now, now keep your ideas rolling guys:thup:

Giving rep to well generated ideas.

I want to ask you...if you make maps and if your experienced. Cuz i made a hero siege map, took me a month, its finished. And could u review it cuz from the points u made not all, but some of the points i sure took into consideration.
in my map well i considerated :

Do you like Lore to go along with the story? theres sort of a story telling. more of cinematic dialogs so u actually feel ur making progress instead of the plain units killing and nothing else
Do you all like the mindset of Intelligence being the damage dealer yet very fragile, strength the tank and the brute, while agility focus more on ninjaing and damaging units? this pattern sure sux, since agility heroes will always be stronger, inteligence heroesalways ridiculous weak. i think the only way around this is to make cheaper tomes, agility tomes more expensive and intel cheaper.
Do you all like defending one spot for life or have to move along everywhere always?
off corse to not get bored its much better to move along.

 

[jaybles169]

I'll give you some ideas that I am currently incorporating into my own Hero D.

-Don't make 20 Hero's and only have 3 of them actually playable. If you're going to make a Hero, make a goddamn Hero that's worth playing .

-Make the difficulty scalable to make the game more dynamic. That way if you only have 4 players they can still have a shot at winning or at least getting semi far. For instance, most of the creeps have their HP multiplied according to how many players are actually playing. This makes it alot easier to test alone.

-Tooltips tooltips tooltips! Make sure they are all accurate and have good grammar and spelling.

-Make XP gain either all fully shared or have some kind of shared system, like the killing Hero gets full xp, everyone else gets half.

-I like team-based Hero D's alot more, so incorporating teamwork into everything is a good idea.

-Gold per kill. I have it so that the killing hero gets x amount of gold, everyone else gets x/2, that way kill stealing is somewhat nullified.

-Custom items that are actually usable; I have "Epic" items that are more worth getting than tomes for instance, but there are different ways to go about getting the items. They are all available through shops at some point, but they also have a chance to drop off bosses and stuff before they are actually buyable, and they are more effective than just buying tomes.

-Mess with gameplay constants, like hp per str point, mana per int point, damage bonus per primary attribute. One thing I definitely did was set Armor per agility point to .01, that way agility based Heros don't have a huge Armor advantage (if you set it to zero you get a huge negative number in the character tooltip which just looks goofy).

-Though I do have tomes, the point isn't to reach ridiculous stats. It's to steadily keep the Heros progressing.

-Another thing I did was put a negative attack speed bonus on some of the "Epic" weapons I made, but made the items worth having, that way you dont have Hero's that look like they're having seizures when they attack.

-Make skills matter toward end game. It's real lame when all you do is auto attack (via .01 sec attack speed-seizure). The only real way to do this is to...

-TEST ALOT. The only way to balance your map is to test it like crazy. I have 7 (going on 8) Hero's and it's taken an extremely long time. Keep a notebook handy; everytime I test my map I find many things that either didn't work right or things that just needed to be changed. Write them down as you go along, it helps alot.

-Also adjust level requirements and level skip numbers for skills. The way I tried to do it was each Hero has 5 skills, but if they wanted to be most effective they had to choose maybe 3 to really go point intensive with. This allows Heros to have different builds which adds to replay value :thup:

-I could probably go on forever but I'll stop here. Hope this helps

 

[vaziocs]

-Don't make 20 Hero's and only have 3 of them actually playable. If you're going to make a Hero, make a goddamn Hero that's worth playing .

-Make the difficulty scalable to make the game more dynamic. That way if you only have 4 players they can still have a shot at winning or at least getting semi far. For instance, most of the creeps have their HP multiplied according to how many players are actually playing. This makes it alot easier to test alone.

-Tooltips tooltips tooltips! Make sure they are all accurate and have good grammar and spelling.

-Make XP gain either all fully shared or have some kind of shared system, like the killing Hero gets full xp, everyone else gets half.

-I like team-based Hero D's alot more, so incorporating teamwork into everything is a good idea.

-Gold per kill. I have it so that the killing hero gets x amount of gold, everyone else gets x/2, that way kill stealing is somewhat nullified.

-Custom items that are actually usable; I have "Epic" items that are more worth getting than tomes for instance, but there are different ways to go about getting the items. They are all available through shops at some point, but they also have a chance to drop off bosses and stuff before they are actually buyable, and they are more effective than just buying tomes.

-Mess with gameplay constants, like hp per str point, mana per int point, damage bonus per primary attribute. One thing I definitely did was set Armor per agility point to .01, that way agility based Heros don't have a huge Armor advantage (if you set it to zero you get a huge negative number in the character tooltip which just looks goofy).

-Though I do have tomes, the point isn't to reach ridiculous stats. It's to steadily keep the Heros progressing.

-Another thing I did was put a negative attack speed bonus on some of the "Epic" weapons I made, but made the items worth having, that way you dont have Hero's that look like they're having seizures when they attack.

-Make skills matter toward end game. It's real lame when all you do is auto attack (via .01 sec attack speed-seizure). The only real way to do this is to...

-TEST ALOT. The only way to balance your map is to test it like crazy. I have 7 (going on 8) Hero's and it's taken an extremely long time. Keep a notebook handy; everytime I test my map I find many things that either didn't work right or things that just needed to be changed. Write them down as you go along, it helps alot.

-Also adjust level requirements and level skip numbers for skills. The way I tried to do it was each Hero has 5 skills, but if they wanted to be most effective they had to choose maybe 3 to really go point intensive with. This allows Heros to have different builds which adds to replay value :thup:

-I could probably go on forever but I'll stop here. Hope this helps

i think you are dreaming there in some of the ideas but my self off corse i was concerned on some u said (in my map).

Constants - lost the count how many constants i changed, the main ones needs to be hero max level, creep table, illusion need to make damage if you havesome ability like that,
Hero xp - constant factor.
all from the hero revive( time, cost, lumber)
Yes the difficulty must be scalable - basically number of spawns depending on number of players. The bosses strenght i dont think they should be changed. by ur test u mean, u test the map solo controlling 8 heroes??? thats pretty impossible if u got use the abilites to survive, i already have a hard time testing use 3 heroes at the same time.

 

[jaybles169]

i think you are dreaming there in some of the ideas but my self off corse i was concerned on some u said (in my map).

Dreaming? All suggestions in that post are things/systems I have in my own Hero Map. Care to actually explain?

Also, it's very easy to counter agility Heros being amazing, as you say. Just change the attack speed increase per agility point constant to the lowest it can go. Then decrease that particular Hero's damage based on what you have for all the other Heros you have made. You could even make a spreadsheet (which I have) to calculate the dps each Hero puts out at whatever level. It's really not that hard if you put some thought into it, which, most people who make Hero D's don't. Which is also why I'm glad to see somebody besides me trying to make one worth playing .

As far as saying more spawns per player, that should really be based on your terrain. I started with that idea, but it turned out to be a terrible idea because all the mobs would bottle neck in one spot, which made the point of it all, pointless. Therefore I went with an HP multiplier, which took some work but thanks to Tom Jones (who made a nifty GUI trigger) I was able to pull that off, and it works amazing.

Also for xp, what I did was change it to 0 in gameplay constants. Then, made a simple trigger that added 'x' xp every time an enemy unit died. That way you can always change it after a certain time or level or whatever.

:thup:

 

[vaziocs]

Dreaming? All suggestions in that post are things/systems I have in my own Hero Map. Care to actually explain?

Also, it's very easy to counter agility Heros being amazing, as you say. Just change the attack speed increase per agility point constant to the lowest it can go. Then decrease that particular Hero's damage based on what you have for all the other Heros you have made. You could even make a spreadsheet (which I have) to calculate the dps each Hero puts out at whatever level. It's really not that hard if you put some thought into it, which, most people who make Hero D's don't. Which is also why I'm glad to see somebody besides me trying to make one worth playing .

:thup:

i said dreaming in terms that it wouldnt make much difference. like the gold per kill and the abilities stuff. Yes everyone rushes to kill a boss or something or just wait till very low hp and use an ability.
changing attack speed was a good idea, but theres still armor and attack damage, maybe reducing the damage increase to 2.5 per point and armor to 0.25
About abilies making a diference in late game is hard, because of balance, normally every unit would get progressive stronger and your ability is just stuck at some point so its hard to find a "point-target" ability that will be balanced in most of the game. And other abilities like auras, divine shield, etc will be helpfull in the entire game.
We can review each other maps here..or make one together see what we can work out.

 

[wraithseeker]

Well, people who said that they do not like warcraft's lore to go along with the story, can you explain more about why do you not like it and instead like custom stories? Oh, and there will be a shared bounty system so last hitting doesn't really matters.

P.S, what would you want to see in a underwater map?

 

[jaybles169]

i said dreaming in terms that it wouldnt make much difference. like the gold per kill and the abilities stuff. Yes everyone rushes to kill a boss or something or just wait till very low hp and use an ability.
changing attack speed was a good idea, but theres still armor and attack damage, maybe reducing the damage increase to 2.5 per point and armor to 0.25
About abilies making a diference in late game is hard, because of balance, normally every unit would get progressive stronger and your ability is just stuck at some point so its hard to find a "point-target" ability that will be balanced in most of the game. And other abilities like auras, divine shield, etc will be helpfull in the entire game.
We can review each other maps here..or make one together see what we can work out.

I'll let you know when I post mine, should be soon, and it will be glorious (even though it's 100% GUI ><).

Can't you just make additional levels and scale the damage/mana usage up for skills as well? Anyway, I feel like we're taking over this guy's post, so I won't say any more about it .

 

[Psiblade94122]

What makes a Hero defense unique?

Battle system, without a doubt. Enfos was fun, but after about 20 copies of it, and all of them useing the same default battle system it gets boreing really fast. Take a look at Metal and Magic, where it used guns and bullets with collision detection, now that was fun, it strikes a new untouched string in a person. Thats whatll bring in the crouds, something new and exiteing, the easiest thing to that? A new Battle system.

Do you all enjoy playing polished Hero Defenses?

Anything polished is enjoyable, take the most popular (note i did NOT say best) map around, Dota. The project started as a RoC project of playing around with the unit editor and was a playground for the makers. A few years of polish, it winds up in TFT with a fanbase that almost every mapper on this fourm is out there. So hell yea, the more polished you map the better!

Do you like Lore to go along with the story?
(For example, "hold the line while Kel'thuzard summons the big bad archimonde")

The lore can go with the heros and items. For a GAME and not a STORY lore is best positioned as "Flavor Text" AKA text thats there and has nothing that actually changes anything in game. If i recall, its the gray text on the items for dota, and the italics text for MTG Cards, its just there for fun and will not take away any fun when you read it.

Do you all like the mindset of Intelligence being the damage dealer yet very fragile, strength the tank and the brute, while agility focus more on ninjaing and damaging units?

Not for a Hero defense map, because the creeps get stronger with each wave, their like a hero leveling up. During a traditonal hero defense game (in falling back in enfos again because i have experience on that map) int heros usualy get flooded with mana <exept for that ice sorc that shoots more stormbolts then you can count> and have little use for their int because their primary inhibitor is their skill cooldowns, Strs usualy finding themselvs tanking only because of their default armor type <IE: Pally has fortified armor> and agi pumping cash into pots because their hp falls a good 10% per hit. Each prime stat hero shuld have their own roles, but they shudent be classed as "Tanker, Mass killer, Ninja" because youll elarn very quickly that a prodomanate stat will lead to very very single build games and itll be a replay of the same thing over and over again. your aiming for uniqe right? you woudent want to see that now would you?

What do you think I can make creeps unique in their own way?

Skills, a creep cant just normal attack the heros all day, if that where a case then its just a matter of dps to hp comparisons and thats no fun. The creeps needs skils, a variation in their attacks to keep the players on their feet to get what they need to adapt to the situation. Take the golems for example, they stun you for a good 30 seconds (if your surrounded) but once you get a anti magic shell on you then youll compleately dominate them. You want memorable creeps? Get some variation in there man.

What bosses would be unique and fun to fight with?

Like with the creeps, bosses too need variation, a good example would be from abyss gates (tree boss splits, crypt lord boss spawns minions to fight along him) or the best example would be impossible bosses where EVERY boss has its own attack variations and patterns.

Do you all like defending one spot for life or have to move along everywhere always?

A combination would be good, something like defend a spot for a while, then a wave spawns from another spot so you have to greet those. Hmm i think Eota (the hero def one, not the AoS) tried that, but ultimately you ended up defending one spot because after they compleatly decimated your little town they would gather to kill the preistest. It was good though, but the constants attacks just overwhelmed the players. Hmm i guess multiple choke points with diffent player benifits would do the trick for this.

Do you think hero defense map fails?

Not at all, i think its the evolution of tower defense. With tower defense its a matter of finding the right way to make the longest path and which broken combination of towers to get (usualy in the form of mass slow or stun cuppled with splash). But with hero defense you have a build to make (usualy in the items you choose) and they dont always come to you, you have to greet them get in their face about it. You are both the offensive and the Defensive (hinderance).

What exactly do you feel that most Hero defenses need to be improved on?

Like i said before, the battle system, Refer to question one for my answer to this.

Do you all like wonderful yet playable terrain?

By all means, this adds to polish (hell you can throw a bit of lore in there too, like how WoW fits all their lore into their terrain)

Do you all like having the idea of neutral races which you have to save or they might fall to the "bad guys" and join their side or your side.

Check my answere about choke points on this.

Do you like a underwater and island theme map?

That would depend on you. Blizzard gave us alot of tilesets (and 3rd parties give us alot more) so really, the theme for the map is all on you, your creativity. We all have the same tools, its what we do with them that makes a map uniqe, so for things like this where wer not discussing mechanics or theories, but instead an artistic style, it shuld be on the map maker. Art comes from ones soul, not from the masses!

 

[wraithseeker]

Not for a Hero defense map, because the creeps get stronger with each wave, their like a hero leveling up. During a traditonal hero defense game (in falling back in enfos again because i have experience on that map) int heros usualy get flooded with mana <exept for that ice sorc that shoots more stormbolts then you can count> and have little use for their int because their primary inhibitor is their skill cooldowns, Strs usualy finding themselvs tanking only because of their default armor type <IE: Pally has fortified armor> and agi pumping cash into pots because their hp falls a good 10% per hit. Each prime stat hero shuld have their own roles, but they shudent be classed as "Tanker, Mass killer, Ninja" because youll elarn very quickly that a prodomanate stat will lead to very very single build games and itll be a replay of the same thing over and over again. your aiming for uniqe right? you woudent want to see that now would you?

Well, what ideas do you have? I agree that intelligence find their mana bar full as always. Any kind of a suggestion so as to make sure their bar doesn't stay full as always?

 

[vaziocs]

Well, what ideas do you have? I agree that intelligence find their mana bar full as always. Any kind of a suggestion so as to make sure their bar doesn't stay full as always?

thats the only advantage of intel heroes, since they will suck at everything else, hitpoints, armor, die super easy, and u want remove it?? U could change amount of mana per point. But the agility heroes are the ones that really needs balance.

 

[Psiblade94122]

alot of new maps use mana as a 2nd hp bar (like plasma sheilds) so that might be one (although that kinda makes it hard for spells to be cast)

hmm...
Theres also use mana by % to beef up attacks (like the asura monks from RO)
Or use mana by point to beef up or add an atribute to an attack (any arrow esqe skill from wc3)
Or you can use it as part of a battle system where even normal attacks need mana <or do less if the hero is short on mana>
Btw, Metal and Magic used mp for their normal attacks, else no attack will even come out.

there are many things you can do with it, since it acts as a MUI real variable in itself where it can regernerate without triggering and will not result in death when it reaches 0, the possibilities are almost endless.

Personally for a hero defense though, i would use mana as "energy" so agi and str will have a need for int (for the mana regen and point increase) and int heros can chain gun (non stop attack) anything but are still weak from their lack of hp (Str) or armor / attack speed (agi) but because they dont need a rest, can still pack a punch. Much like how i said the ice sorc chainguned everything with hero masses of storm bolts, something like that can empty mana bars like no other.

thats the only advantage of intel heroes, since they will suck at everything else, hitpoints, armor, die super easy, and u want remove it?? U could change amount of mana per point. But the agility heroes are the ones that really needs balance.

Your right, that is the only advantage that int heros have, but really, what good dose having a full mana bar do for you if your skills are taking their time cooling down and your a sitting target? What good will it do for you if your spells dont even chip 1% of it away and you regen it instantly? Its so fucking useless that its a disadvantage instead of an advantage! You say everything else needs balancing? If your gona NERF Str heros and Agi heros down to the Int hero level all your heros will be absolute crap, why make a hero thats fun to play so weak that playing him is a chore rather then a game? Wer trying to bring those int heros up to that level, so noone on your team will go oh crap he picked a int hero hes just gona leach late game EXP and wont land a single kill! Instead of seeing mana as a black and white "Its used for spells only and nothing else" see it instead as a door to making something new, something Unthought of (hell yea i just made a new word!). Use it to create something new something that will make the players go Holy Crap i actually NEED this stat! Instead of, oh im high level and int isnt doing ANYTHING for me at all, i have about 20k mana and i use about 200~600 per spell... i regen about that much per second... what a useless stat.

 

[wraithseeker]

Theres also use mana by % to beef up attacks (like the asura monks from RO)

Well, elaborate? It just increases the damage but the mana pools still stays there. I have an idea that I think would be nice, make a item that is mana shield that absorbs mana simple, although I still need more ideas for intel heroes.

 

[Psiblade94122]

well, ill take the asura monk example

the cauncualtion for that skill uses 100% of your mana, it has a inital mana cost of 1 (which is pretty much nothing)

All that mana is put as damage ADDED onto your inital magic damage (increased by int) and ontop of that ANY Weapon damage you have with any multipliers you have on you. So basically useing your mana as an attack means

The higher your current pool of mana is, the more mana will be expended for the attack FOR AN EVEN GREATER DAMAGE OUTPUT. Because your now useing mana as a variable for your attack caunculations instead of just a set attack damage. So your damage output will really depend on your current build.

then again use as you please, hell just to trow you another bone to catch
how bout....
If the hero has enough mp (3x the inital cost of the spell) then the hero will automaticaly use 2x the mana cost to instantly refresh the spell's cooldown.

 

[wraithseeker]

Hmmm... It seemed to light my mind somehow abit. Good suggestion +REP. Do you still have any more?

 

[jaybles169]

Well, what ideas do you have? I agree that intelligence find their mana bar full as always. Any kind of a suggestion so as to make sure their bar doesn't stay full as always?

Turn down mana regeneration bonus per int point. Jack up mana cost per skill, but make the damage worthwhile. If you don't incorporate tomes that are +100 to all stats but scale it down to like 1-5, and base the rest of your game around that (creep hp, dmg, ect.) you won't really have to deal with those extremities.