So... SC2 makes me wonder -.-

[Doomhammer]

@Kingbdogz:
Starcraft did revolutionize the RTS genre no matter if you like to acknowledge it or not. When starcraft first came out it was an amazing experience to play it, it had amazing graphics compared to the other RTS games that where out at the time and the controls where just to die for.

True, but only to a point. It may sound very subjective, but from a technical point, Starcraft was anything but top notch when it launched. I remember exactly reading the preview article in my favorite games magazine at that time. There was an introductory article with detailed description of all the terran, zerg and protoss units, and the unit images (taken from in-game screenshots) were pixelated with pixels of 2mmx2mm! What a turn-off! Total Annihilation, having launched about a year before already boasted graphics in SVGA. I mean, wow!, S(!)-VGA, that was about the highest resolution of proper monitors that era. Beeing far too keen on graphics, my first thought about Starcraft was the kind of "yet another game in outdated VGA - what a bunch of BS".
After all, it took merely an hour playing the demo on LAN (!) to be set on fire by the awesomeness of this game.
In the end, I now know better, meaning that graphics is just one single aspect among many that contributes to gameplay and game experience; graphics (by its screen resolution) itself being probably the weakest link in the original Starcraft, as sound, interface, control, unit design, unit balancing, "unit characters", mission design, storytelling, cutscenes, multiplayer map design, battlenet and last but not least StarEdit all merged into one coherent and harmonious concept to prove the most amazing RTS game expererience of the time and for many years to come.
So it wasn't the mere graphics but the - on an artistic level - brilliant blend of all the other aspects that made Starcraft outstanding over other great RTS titles of the time, such as C&C and TA.

 

[Doomhammer]

Yet SC is still widely played to this day

especially by KeSPA-driven Korean pro-gamers

 

[Samael88]

Yes and then 2 years passed and 3D RTS games with 'innovative' features were released. 5 years passed, even more 'innovative' RTS games were released. 10 years passed and RTS games with graphics and 'features' that put SC to shame came out. Yet SC is still widely played to this day.

Yeah, I know that, but that was the original SC. SC2 is not an expansion, it should be a new game, not a remake of SC1 with some new units.
I for one was hoping for more epic sized battles, I can see why they did keep it as it is though since it is the only thing that allows the beta to be playable on my computer.
One thing that you are forgetting here is that there is a whole new kind of "gamers" out there, and those are the people who only bought WC3 for the custom maps and not to forget the youtube generation with their short attention spans, that is why the original SC2 gameplay will probably lessen faster as the original WC3 play did.

 

[NightShade]

Yes starcraft was good because it had amazing gameplay.
However, starcraft 2 doesn't even try to compete with how awesome starcraft was when it came out. It's starcraft but more complicated and with better graphics. It's gameplay is not at all new or interesting. That's the reason why all the other rts which tried to replicate starcraft failed, warcraft was good because it had an amazing world editor. why would anyone who already played sc until they were bored of it want sc2? User content and map editor, that's why.

 

[kingbdogz]

why would anyone who already played sc until they were bored of it want sc2? User content and map editor, that's why.

After playing 6 years of Starcraft it started to become stale, however, I'm not going to Starcraft 2 for user content LOL. You guys seriously aren't true Starcraft fans if you are getting Starcraft 2 for that reason. I want Starcraft 2 because it has better graphics, new mechanics, awesome new units, and of course from what I can see the most epic RTS campaign in history. That's why I want it, NOT for the editor, that is just a bonus. So far I believe Starcraft 2 is heaps better than Starcraft 1 in a lot of aspects, and I know I will be playing it for the years to come.

 

[NightShade]

Sc2 gameplay is ok, but nothing special, The campaign looks cool but that will only last a month. I expect any game which I spend over $50 on to entertain me for years.
Wc2 was good, but if wc3 only had a few new units and was in 3d it would suck. Wc3 had much better gameplay, and it had a good editor, so it wasn't even on the same level wc2.

For all of the younger people and other people who have a short attention span sc2 will only be good for a year. I'm just disappointed with sc2, that's all. starcontrol 3 wasn't that bad, but compared to starcontrol 2 it was horrible.

After the first few years or so people will only get sc2 for it's editor.

 

[Lyerae]

The editor is the reason that WC3 and SC (and BW) are so popular.
I mean really, without DotA, WC3 would have about 1 million less users. I know easly a dozen people whom have gone and bought WC3, just so they can play DotA.

Look, the point I'm trying to make is this:
Blizzard is dependant on the amount of mods/maps created by users. Without them, they'll lose a lot of gamers. Yeah, a lot play melee, but the majority of battle.net plays UMS.

With SC2, they've limited the ability of the mapper/modders signifigantly.
That's what some of us are trying to point out.
Who cares if SC was played for this many years, or if that many players play melee. That doesn't matter at all. Not for the point I'm trying to make.

I'll go ahead and say that Starcraft 2 will last AT MOST 2 years, without custom maps and/or mods.

With maps/mods, and the proper amount of power (not what they've given us so far), the game will last about 6-7 years, unless someone comes out with a new "big" map (such as DotA). Then it'll last 8-9. 12-14 if there are multiple maps like that.

See the point I'm trying to make?

 

[NightShade]

Starcraft didn't rely on the map editor to be popular...
It had good gameplay.

I agree with you though.

 

[kingbdogz]

1 million users for DotA is a little exaggerated. Sure, it was popular, but it didn't really have a fan base that big, especially now that new incarnations like League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth, and all those other games are coming out. Starcraft was only popular for its gameplay, nothing else.

Wc2 was good, but if wc3 only had a few new units and was in 3d it would suck.

Umm no it would actually be good. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Warcraft 2 was fine and if Warcraft 3 had Warcraft 2's gameplay with better graphics, new units, new mechanics and systems, it would have been a LOT better than Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 was only good for its hero system and even then the game felt empty with small and uninteresting battles.

Starcraft 2 isn't just Starcraft 1 in 3D as you keep saying, I don't understand where people are getting this from. If that would be so, then you would be saying that Starcraft 2 is brilliant because from what I can gather you think Starcraft 1 has a great multiplayer. Starcraft 2 has a lot of game-changing mechanics like the Queen, Orbital Command, Chrono Boost, Warp-in, Nydus Worms, etc. These are all unique mechanics that make the game feel fresh and new, and will make it prolong for the years to come.

I'll go ahead and say that Starcraft 2 will last AT MOST 2 years, without custom maps and/or mods.

You're very ignorant, sorry, but you are. If Starcraft 1 can last 12 years without custom maps, then so can Starcraft 2.

See the point I'm trying to make?

Not really, you seem to be throwing around these statements of how long it will last when in reality we have NO idea. You are ignorant of the massive fan base Starcraft has and I don't think you can make a somewhat accurate assumption.

Who cares if SC was played for this many years, or if that many players play melee. That doesn't matter at all. Not for the point I'm trying to make.

In fact it does matter because you are trying to make a point based on how long Starcraft 2 will last. Considering Starcraft 2 is the most hyped up game of these past years, and how big the fan base is, it would EASILY last 5 years without custom maps.

Blizzard is dependant on the amount of mods/maps created by users. Without them, they'll lose a lot of gamers. Yeah, a lot play melee, but the majority of battle.net plays UMS.

The only reason most of the games on Battle.net are played on UMS is because the games are 8-12 years old. Now that new games are coming out, melee will dominate the Battle.net scene as it once did back when Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 1 first came out.


I'm not intending to bash you, but sometimes when people make false assumptions then I kind of need to butt in and explain why you are wrong. Yes, I DO dislike the direction Starcraft 2's map editor is coming along, however, that is no reason to state that without user content Starcraft 2 will last 2 years max.

 

[Lyerae]

You're very ignorant, sorry, but you are. If Starcraft 1 can last 12 years without custom maps, then so can Starcraft 2.

I could say the same for you, but I won't, because I'm not an ass. :thdown:
And if you were to take away custom games, SC wouldn't have lasted half as long.

Not really, you seem to be throwing around these statements of how long it will last when in reality we have NO idea. You are ignorant of the massive fan base Starcraft has and I don't think you can make a somewhat accurate assumption.

What makes you think that I'm ignorant? I mean really, I could be a part of the dev team for all you know.
Of course, I'm not. I'm just really stating my opinion on the matter.

In fact it does matter because you are trying to make a point based on how long Starcraft 2 will last. Considering Starcraft 2 is the most hyped up game of these past years, and how big the fan base is, it would EASILY last 5 years without custom maps.

Hype is just that: Hype.
Don't listen to it, or else your just furthering the problem: Making the game seem better than it may (or may not) be.

The only reason most of the games on Battle.net are played on UMS is because the games are 8-12 years old. Now that new games are coming out, melee will dominate the Battle.net scene as it once did back when Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 1 first came out.

Yeah, melee will dominate - until people get bored with it.

I'm not intending to bash you

Could have fooled me.

but sometimes when people make false assumptions then I kind of need to butt in and explain why you are wrong.

Where exactly am I wrong? On the part where Blizzard ruined the editor for us? Or where I said they depend on us for making the game last (which is exactly what happened with WC3: Thank IceFrog for it's popularity.)?

Yes, I DO dislike the direction Starcraft 2's map editor is coming along, however, that is no reason to state that without user content Starcraft 2 will last 2 years max.

Would you play a game for two years that had absolutely no new content, aside from patches that only fixed some problems (excluding the expansions. I don't even want to talk about those.).

 

[kingbdogz]

I could say the same for you, but I won't, because I'm not an ass.

How am I ignorant, or an ass? I'm not an ass for stating that your opinion is wrong, learn to deal with it.

And if you were to take away custom games, SC wouldn't have lasted half as long.

Umm yes it would, you do realize that Korea has actual Television channels that show Starcraft 1 tournaments that are being played each week? Do you think they showcase custom games because the game got boring? I don't think so.

What makes you think that I'm ignorant?

Because you are trying to prove a point based on facts you aren't familiar with.

I mean really, I could be a part of the dev team for all you know.

If you were, you wouldn't be complaining on a fansite forum about your own project, you would be taking the matter to the other developers. So no, you couldn't be.

Hype is just that: Hype.
Don't listen to it, or else your just furthering the problem: Making the game seem better than it may (or may not) be.

Perhaps, but what about the large fanbase? Do you really think that they won't play the game for the years to come?

Yeah, melee will dominate - until people get bored with it.

I got bored of Starcraft and Warcraft 3 several times, and when I did, I took a break and played other games, not custom games on Battle.net. A week later I'd come back and play for another six months.

Where exactly am I wrong? On the part where Blizzard ruined the editor for us?

You're wrong that the game won't last without user content, which is entirely not true. Yes it would make it last longer, but not by much.

Would you play a game for two years that had absolutely no new content, aside from patches that only fixed some problems (excluding the expansions. I don't even want to talk about those.).

If the gameplay is as addictive and as fun as Starcraft and Starcraft 2's, yes I would and I in fact, did (Starcraft: Brood War, 6 years straight).


Sorry mate, I'm not trying to be an asshole. I just don't agree with your opinion, and clearly, you don't agree with mine. So, yeah.

 

[Daskunk]

The editor is the reason that WC3 and SC (and BW) are so popular.
I mean really, without DotA, WC3 would have about 1 million less users. I know easly a dozen people whom have gone and bought WC3, just so they can play DotA.

Look, the point I'm trying to make is this:
Blizzard is dependant on the amount of mods/maps created by users. Without them, they'll lose a lot of gamers. Yeah, a lot play melee, but the majority of battle.net plays UMS.

With SC2, they've limited the ability of the mapper/modders signifigantly.
That's what some of us are trying to point out.
Who cares if SC was played for this many years, or if that many players play melee. That doesn't matter at all. Not for the point I'm trying to make.

I'll go ahead and say that Starcraft 2 will last AT MOST 2 years, without custom maps and/or mods.

With maps/mods, and the proper amount of power (not what they've given us so far), the game will last about 6-7 years, unless someone comes out with a new "big" map (such as DotA). Then it'll last 8-9. 12-14 if there are multiple maps like that.

See the point I'm trying to make?

Just because the editor isn't all you wanted it to be doesn't mean that there isn't going to be custom maps, and even plently of good custom maps. People learned to deal with the major drawbacks of wc3 after a while.

I think that anyone who isn't pleased with the editor should just reserve their judgment to after the expansions come out. Maybe the flaws will be ironed out by then. If they're not, don't buy it. But its too late for blizzard to do a 180 on their choices or add an expand a lot without delaying the game. I think it likely that they will improve it a lot after both expansions. I know its a fad for everyone to say that, but just compare RoC with TFT.

IMO, the melee will last long enough for the editor to become good enough to produce the custom maps that keep the game alive. I can't say I think the game will come out all right and last really long, but I think we shouldn't be so hasty in our judgment.

No matter your opinion, I think the conversation should come to a close. Its beginning to get hostile. I think we've all pretty much expressed our concerns, and it isn't accomplishing much anymore. I do not entirely agree or disagree with either viewpoint, but I'm going to buy the game anyways - The melee\campaign looks good enough, and the editor is good enough to produce fun maps even if its very disappointing in many ways.

 

[NightShade]

To be serious a bad editor isn't really the reason why I won't get sc2. But it does reinforces that position.

 

[INCINERATE]

seriously,is the editor even that bad? i find it to be way superior than war3's own... just look at what you can do in the data editor alone...

e.g just yesterday i found out you can get water effects to look so much better, by giving good transparancy and reflective surfaces, hell you could change water to have a purplish glow if you wanted too, the terrain customization alone is incredible, makes war3 look like a bunch of squares and massive pixels. Also i can make custom spells from scratch by combining behaviors and effects. i dont even see how its "bad" .. its just different and people have to become used to it or be like the OP and just whine.

Finally i have an editor that i can make so many cool spells with just the data editor alone, While this is more "work" its definately not bad for me, because unlike war3, if you didnt have a really fast system and very good knowledge of jass/vjass code etc, You could kiss that spell idea goodbye cause it would either be to laggy or buggy when done in gui

Sc2 editor > war3 Editor by a longshot

also a post yesterday from the blizzard guys confirmed that they heard about the flaws of custom games and are coming up with solutions for it.

 

[Renendaru]

People seems to hate the Starcraft 2 editor because they can't do things they used to be able to do. Starcraft 2 is a new game, hence, a new editor. Just because it IS an editor, doesn't mean it HAS to do the same things. If anything, I love the new editor.

 

[Lyerae]

People seems to hate the Starcraft 2 editor because they can't do things they used to be able to do. Starcraft 2 is a new game, hence, a new editor. Just because it IS an editor, doesn't mean it HAS to do the same things. If anything, I love the new editor.

I don't hate SC2. I don't hate Blizzard (well, not a lot). I just hate what they're doing.

 

[Renendaru]

I don't hate SC2. I don't hate Blizzard (well, not a lot). I just hate what they're doing.

I never said Starcraft 2? I was talking about the editor, for those who are complaining about it. And yes, Blizzard is doing some stupid things as of late.

 

[Lyerae]

I never said Starcraft 2? I was talking about the editor, for those who are complaining about it. And yes, Blizzard is doing some stupid things as of late.

Erm, sorry, meant the editor.

 

[punwisp]

People expect sc2 gameplay to be much better than sc1 gameplay since sc1 is so old. People didn't have big expectations back in the day, but now, we do. Even if sc2 is just as good as sc1 it won't be nearly as enjoyable. Blizzard can't make games that have gameplay much better then sc1, so they rely on map makers. Just look at wc3.

offtopic: I just realized that Toys for Bob must now be owned by activision blizzard, which means that I'm relying (hoping) on blizzard for one other game, a real StarControl 3.

Question, have you seen the gameplay before various patches in Sc1? it wasn't a balanced game, and wasn't what we know of Sc1 today, it was pretty unbalanced, then as more patches came out, the more Starcraft became better and better of a game, and broodwar helped a lot too.

So seriously everyone, stop bitching, not one of Blizzards games WASNT successful(PC Games). You can't expect perfection RIGHT when it comes out, its not PERFECT, and this game, as all others WILL be quite successful. Shit, this game is in beta, and you guys are still complaining about the game before it comes out.

Shit theres already been NUMEROUS changes to Sc2 during beta, you think there won't be after Sc2's release? I don't remember 1 blizzard game that didn't go through numerous changes that made the game so much better (Wow being a exception, they did it a bit too much).


So seriously, as ban said

Rome wasn't built in a day

And if you were to take away custom games, SC wouldn't have lasted half as long.

Duh... CUSTOM games is one of the primary reasons all of blizzards RTS games are so successful, mainly Sc1 and Wc3, was because of custom games, infact, the only reason Wc3 was still so popular was Custom maps, and maps like Dota. Same with Starcraft.

Funny thing is, with Sc2, people can make BETTER maps, and more UNIQUE maps, so regardless, the trend will continue. Blizzards Editor is pretty much what keeps these games alive, its not the only thing but is one of the primary reasons. Not only that, is they added numerous other aspects such as Achievements, to motivate people.


Seriously, this game is FAR from flopping, shit you guys piss and moan because of a couple aspects of the editor and you throw it in the water. Very close minded.

 

[BANANAMAN]

Just for future reference.

Broodwar Battle.net: Domain of Newbs,Douches and idiots.

Broodwar ICCUP:Where the real games are played.

Seriously people still play in Broodwar Battle.net? That place is the 4chan of Broodwar.